Mycroft Holmes

[Carol the Dabbler]

I think one important purpose served by Mycroft, both here and in the original stories, is to point out that Sherlock isn't just a huge intellect.  If he were, then yes, Mycroft might be his superior.  But Mycroft doesn't have the other necessary abilities, nor does he have the fortitude to do what Sherlock does.  Sherlock himself has said (to Moriarty), "I’m not my brother, remember? I am you – prepared to do anything; prepared to burn; prepared to do what ordinary people won’t do."

 

For one thing, I believe that Sherlock's elaborate "deductions" are actually flashes of insight strung together with logic.  Mycroft has the logic, but he's either lacking the insight or unwilling to trust it.

 

[Redbeard]

 

Forgot to add, in the torture scene, to me it is not that Mycroft is enjoying it, but probably more like studying and learning from it in some way.  Like how much pain can Sherlock take before he breaks?  Useful information to be filed away in case it is useful later.

 

whoa, that is a shocking view on the scene. I don't really know how to digest this. First of all I hope you don't mean to imply that Mycroft has no plans for "later" to hurt Sherlock in a way that would or just wouldn't break him one day. But I'm sure you don't. I guess you think those information could be useful in the way that in case someone else hurts Sherlock, he knows when he has to step in or for a similar scenario. I really couldn't face it if there was any other purpose Mycroft might find those information useful for.

 

But then it's perfectly possible that Mycroft uses the situation to gather information - well, he gathers information in every single moment since he, as Sherlock, does observe what's going on around him. But I can't (won't ) imagine that this is why he is there or why he doesn't step in. I think he doesn't prevent the beating because he analyses the situation and concludes that it is best for both of them not to step in at that moment. There is the Serbian guardsman outside who'd probably shoot him if he found out Mycroft wasn't one of them, and even if they escaped him, there would be the helicopter and the men who caught Sherlock in the first place. And it's impossible for them to outrun the helicopter with Sherlock in that state. So he does watch the beating and probably does collect information, but IMHO he does not watch it to collect information. It's just the most 'beneficial' way to deal with the situation at hand.

 

 

No, I did not mean to imply that Mycroft had any plans to harm Sherlock, but I could see how my clumsy ramblings could confuse lol.  I totally agree with your second paragraph! 

[Schlauer Fuchs]

 

  Sherlock himself has said (to Moriarty), "I’m not my brother, remember? I am you – prepared to do anything; prepared to burn; prepared to do what ordinary people won’t do."

 

Coming to think of it: Does Sherlock mean to say here that Mycroft is ordinary? I mean, he's clearly not ordinary in the sense of stupid, nor is he in the sense of law-abiding ("I guarantee you on behalf of the British security services that materials will be found on your computer hard drives resulting in your immediate incarceration").

 

 

No, I did not mean to imply that Mycroft had any plans to harm Sherlock, but I could see how my clumsy ramblings could confuse lol.  I totally agree with your second paragraph! 

 

Oh no, your writing wasn't clumsy, my thoughts went crazy (because I want to protect both Sherlock and Mycroft and am constantly on the lookout to defend poor  Mycroft )

[Carol the Dabbler]

Sherlock himself has said (to Moriarty), "I’m not my brother, remember? I am you – prepared to do anything; prepared to burn; prepared to do what ordinary people won’t do."

 

Coming to think of it: Does Sherlock mean to say here that Mycroft is ordinary? I mean, he's clearly not ordinary in the sense of stupid, nor is he in the sense of law-abiding ("I guarantee you on behalf of the British security services that materials will be found on your computer hard drives resulting in your immediate incarceration").

Hmm -- that thought hadn't quite occurred to me, but yes, what Sherlock says could clearly be interpreted in that way, and I believe he does consider Mycroft to be "ordinary" in the sense that he's not willing to take personal risks to achieve his ends.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

It never even occurred to me that Sherlock thought of Mycroft as ordinary in any way. Will have to rewatch that.

[sittything]

Is Mycroft a Sociopath instead of Sherlock?  

 

It's Wiki but I like that it lists both the old (since we're now on the DSM-5) DSM-IV diagnostic criteria as well as WHO's ICD-10 criteria for antisocial personality disorder (which would include people formerly knows as sociopaths and psychopaths).   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder

 

So looking at the ICD-10 you would need to meet at minimum three of the following:

 

• Callous unconcern for the feelings of others;
• Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations;
• Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, though having no difficulty in establishing them;
• Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence;
• Incapacity to experience guilt or to profit from experience, particularly punishment;
• Marked readiness to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior that has brought the person into conflict with society.

 

ETA:  I changed the list above to the ICD-10 for Dissocial Personality Disorder, since that's actually the European equivalent

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

I can see Mycroft fitting the first and maybe the last criteria, but not the rest.

[Schlauer Fuchs]

Maybe also the third and fifth? I definitely need more data on Mycroft!

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

He's maintained an enduring relationship with Sherlock, albeit a bumpy one.

 

And he also admitted that it was a mistake when he sold Sherlock out to Moriarty in TRF.

[Schlauer Fuchs]

Right, he has got a relationship with Sherlock, though ... well, dunno if this relationship of all things can be seen as proof that he isn't a sociopath. But then, maybe it is!

 

But I'm not sure if he really meant to apologise. It could have been just part of the plan (to keep John in the dark about the plan to destroy Moriarty via feeding him information on Sherlock; what a stupid plan that is, btw!).

[sittything]

When I said in my other post that Mycroft has a great deal of respect for laws/rules/government, I think it gets tricky with how little we know of a.) Mycroft's position (he's this shadowy govt figure) and b.) how much leeway Mycroft is given in his position to do as he pleases for some greater cause.  I think to get where he's gotten, Mycroft has to very adept at abiding by social norms and if/when he does break laws, I would wager it's within the context of his job.  Honestly, the only time I could see Mycroft breaking the law (outside of his job) would be in faking Moriarty's return to get his brother back, and even then I don't think he would break the law to save his own brother, the brother who's loss would break his heart.  I think while not as emotionally volatile as Sherlock, Mycroft is as equally full of it when he pretends that he doesn't care.  He may not have as many goldfish to care about, but he still cares.  He may not let his emotions influence him as greatly, but he still cares.  I just think Sherlock is more willing to break social norms and laws (killing Magnussen) to protect those he cares about.  

 

As far as the other points, I don't think Mycroft is callous of the feelings of others.  He seemed very aware and concerned for Sherlock's well-being and emotional state when Irene Adler was supposedly dead (both times).  

 

He seems to maintain decent working relationships.  Does that count?  And he maintains his relationship with Sherlock even though it's dysfunctional.

 

He's not aggressive or violent and is the king of keeping his emotions in check.  Much more so than Sherlock.  So that's a big no for me.

 

I dunno, do we know enough about him to know how much he experiences guilt/remorse?  The thing with Mycroft, to me, is that it seems  he is very calculating in his decision making, so by the time he has weighed all of the pros and cons, I feel like he's probably already rationalized why it was the best choice, even when that means sacrificing people for some cause.   Is that sociopathic?  Just ruthless?  

 

The last, he's certainly not in conflict with society and I've never seen him blaming others for his problems/mistakes.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Regardless of how others might see Mycroft, I'm reasonably certain that he would not consider himself to be any kind of a sociopath.  However, as I suggested on another thread, he might well have "diagnosed" Sherlock as a sociopath when they were kids -- and Sherlock may have defiantly adopted the term.

 

[Arcadia]

 

Sherlock himself has said (to Moriarty), "I’m not my brother, remember? I am you – prepared to do anything; prepared to burn; prepared to do what ordinary people won’t do."

 

Coming to think of it: Does Sherlock mean to say here that Mycroft is ordinary? I mean, he's clearly not ordinary in the sense of stupid, nor is he in the sense of law-abiding ("I guarantee you on behalf of the British security services that materials will be found on your computer hard drives resulting in your immediate incarceration").

 

I don't think Sherlock is necessarily saying Mycroft is ordinary. It's just that he thinks Mycroft won't go outside of "ordinary behavior" to get what he wants, the way Sherlock will. I'm not sure that's a valid assessment on Sherlock's part, though; I think he underestimates what "ordinary" people will do.

 

Mycroft: I vote no, not a sociopath!

[SherlockedCAMPer]

I agree that Mycroft is not a sociopath. He just has some of the social skills problems that can plague highly intelligent people.

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

So he's socially incompetent, just like Sherlock!

[sittything]

He's gotta be more socially competent, though, than Sherlock, right?  To have gotten where he has career-wise?

 

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

Yeah, I guess. But what about this?

 

(From Ariane DeVere's transcript:)

 

     MYCROFT: No – he’s recently had his hair cut. You can see the little hairs adhering to the perspiration stains on the inside.

     (Sherlock looks down at the hat, pouting slightly.)

     SHERLOCK: Some women have short hair, too.

     MYCROFT: Balance of probability.

     SHERLOCK: Not that you’ve ever spoken to a woman with short hair – or, you know, a woman.

[sittything]

Well, I'm assuming Mycroft at least talks to "Anthea," yes?  lol   Brotherly dig?   And he talks to Irene Adler... does he say anything to Molly directly in the morgue?  Mycroft and Sherlock discussing the other's lack of experience with women... pot meet kettle?   

[sittything]

You know... I think what I love about Mycroft and Sherlock is that you have two brilliant men, yet put them together and they revert to 12 year olds.  lol

 

 

(OK, this scene is with Watson but still about Sherlock)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[T.o.b.y]

Well, I'm assuming Mycroft at least talks to "Anthea," yes?  lol   Brotherly dig?   And he talks to Irene Adler... does he say anything to Molly directly in the morgue?  Mycroft and Sherlock discussing the other's lack of experience with women... pot meet kettle? 

 

I think Sherlock was getting at a lot more than just speaking to a woman. And at the time he taunts Mycroft about that, he himself has at least presumably had some kind of close encounter with Irene Adler, and he's very aware that Molly has a crush on him. Sherlock knows he has romantic options, though he perhaps doesn't really want them, while it's pretty safe to assume Mycroft does not.

 

[Boton]

 

 

Well, I'm assuming Mycroft at least talks to "Anthea," yes? lol Brotherly dig? And he talks to Irene Adler... does he say anything to Molly directly in the morgue? Mycroft and Sherlock discussing the other's lack of experience with women... pot meet kettle?

I think Sherlock was getting at a lot more than just speaking to a woman. And at the time he taunts Mycroft about that, he himself has at least presumably had some kind of close encounter with Irene Adler, and he's very aware that Molly has a crush on him. Sherlock knows he has romantic options, though he perhaps doesn't really want them, while it's pretty safe to assume Mycroft does not.

Totally agree. For basically any taunt that Sherlock hurls at Mycroft or vice versa, I assume that it was constructed when one or the other were no more than 12. I don't think either of them has updated their insults since they were kids, which is why we get all the "alarmed about sex," "audience with the Queen," "how would you know if you're lonely" stuff. It's all adolescent type insult that speaks to young men's worries: you'll never get any, no one likes you, and you might be different.

[T.o.b.y]

 For basically any taunt that Sherlock hurls at Mycroft or vice versa, I assume that it was constructed when one or the other were no more than 12. I don't think either of them has updated their insults since they were kids, which is why we get all the "alarmed about sex," "audience with the Queen," "how would you know if you're lonely" stuff. It's all adolescent type insult that speaks to young men's worries: you'll never get any, no one likes you, and you might be different.

 

... with the added twist that these are all fears both brother profess not to have, because they consider the areas of life they pertain to irrelevant.

 

Sherlock and Mycroft do behave like adolescents around each other, don't they. Maybe this is why I have a hard time taking Mycroft seriously - we hardly see him on his own, doing what he's really good at. (Thank goodness we don't, probably, that would be a hell of a boring show).

 

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

... or one hell of a scary show! 

 

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

Yeah -- look at that big nose! You could impale someone on that thing.

[Redbeard]

Sometimes I wonder if Sherlock's jabs are meant to imply Mycroft is gay?  (Not that there's anything wrong with that.  Cue Seinfeld music)  With his comment about being there to "see the Queen" being directed at Mycroft and then his comment about never having spoken to "a woman" I wonder.   We know that Sherlock has no actual problem with anyone being gay ("I know it's fine").  But the two comments together make me think he is trying to tease Mycroft.  Whether Mycroft actually is gay or not would be a different matter, but it seems like something Sherlock likes to torment him with.  Which again goes back to what Boton was saying about reverting to the old childhood taunts. That is something I can see young boys doing to get at each other, whether there was any truth in it or not. 

 

Come to think of it, Mycroft does the same to Sherlock lol.  (Might we expect a happy announcement?)