Who are Your Favorite Villains / Antagonists (Series 4)?

[Artemis]

I looked around, but I didn't see one of these threads for series 4. The title speaks for itself.

 

(I wasn't sure how to make a poll, but maybe someone else could add one.)

Edited June 21, 2017 by Carol the Dabbler
Added poll

[Artemis]

Culverton Smith is my favorite villain of series 4, I think.  But then I'm rather partial to the Villain With Good Publicity trope.

 

 

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Culverton might be my favorite as well, but I also like how they did the lead up to Eurus. I knew it was Sian on the bus (recognized her face) and as the lady in red (more from setlock reveals than her own looks), but didn't recognize her as the therapist until her reveal. Sherlock would be disappointed in me and at least mildly impressed with her disguise ability (assuming he had remembered his sister at all).

[Artemis]

I knew it was Sian on the bus (recognized her face) and as the lady in red (more from setlock reveals than her own looks), but didn't recognize her as the therapist until her reveal.

I recognized her as all three people, but until the end scene I wasn't sure if that was for a purpose or if they were reusing the same actress in all three roles to save money or something, and hoping people wouldn't notice. I probably should have figured it was intentional, but it seemed so weird.

 

My biggest peeve with Eurus is her relation to Sherlock. I wasn't thrilled about the "secret supervillain sister" arc. Actually I roared "Nooooooooooooooo!!" into the air very dramatically upon her reveal. I don't mind reimaginings as long as they don't stray too far, but I generally really dislike the addition of non-canonical characters, particularly when they are closely involved with a main character.

 

 

I don't mind Molly, for instance, because she's a minor character with sparse interaction with the main characters. She's not a major secondary, like John, or a relative. I wouldn't have minded Eurus if she were a villain unconnected to Sherlock. I wouldn't even have minded much if she were, say, Moriarty's sister instead. But Sherlock's sister, no. I despise that. I understand what the writers wanted to do with it, but no.

 

Norbury reminded me a bit of the cabbie from ASiP. I liked her as a villain for the fact that her motivations were very human and relatable.

[Arcadia]

I looked around, but I didn't see one of these threads for series 4.  The title speaks for itself. 

 

(I wasn't sure how to make a poll, but maybe someone else could add one.)

 

I've added a poll, but I didn't think very hard about who should be on it, so if you want it updated, let me know.

 

To make a poll, you have to be the one who created the thread ... so in this case, Artemis, if you want to change it, edit your post, click on the "manage poll topic" to the right of the content box, and I think it will be pretty clear what to do from there. But if you don't have that capability on whatever device your using, and you want to change the poll, let me know.

 

ETA ... wait, you should now be able to see an "Edit this poll" button underneath the poll.

 

============

 

I don't actually think of anyone as a villain in TAB, unless it's Sir Eustace or Mr. Ricolletti.

 

Same with Ajay and Eurus. Antagonists, yes, but not entirely villains. 

 

So for me it's down to Norbury or Smith, and I'll say Norbury, for the reasons you cited above. Although the cat and mouse between Smith and Sherlock was more interesting. Hm. Okay, maybe Smith. :P

[T.o.b.y]

Calverton Smith is just so disgusting. He certainly works as a villain in that I instinctively despised him the second he was introduced. He didn't frighten me though the way Magnussen or Moriarty do.

 

I guess I will go with Eurus even though I wish they had not introduced her at all.

[Arcadia]

It dawned on me that my favorite villain was Moriarty in TAB ... but he was just in Sherlock's head. So does he count? :smile

 

 

[Artemis]

I would think so.  He didn't do anything in "reality", but he wasn't out of character, and Sherlock knows him well enough to have an accurate image of him in his mind.

 

I always associate TAB with series 3, so I didn't even think of him.

 

 

[Arcadia]

I don't really associate it with either season, but The Dabbler decreed that it was part of S4, so it is part of S4. xd

[Carol the Dabbler]

Hey, you want me to go against IMDb?

[SherlockedCAMPer]

IMDb generally puts the specials with the season/series that follows it from what I noticed with Doctor Who.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Gotta put 'em somewhere.  And Series 3 was already finished, so I guess putting TAB in with S4 makes as much sense as anything.

[Van Buren Supernova]

:D :D :D

(Grab popcorn to watch fight)

Ehh? It's over? You guys.. aiz.. there should be at least violin clonking or something. We are talking about favorite villains for macaroni sake!

 

Anyway, for S4, yah I agree there are not many villains, and if TAB is S4, I choose Moriarty. S1 S2 Moriarty as well. Although I despise CAM, he is a decent villain in S3. Culverton is a bit cartoony (yah yah I'm aware Moriarty is arguable cartoony as well), he is easily side tracked and I never felt threatened by Culverton, not sure why, although there are a lot of real life people like him. Monsters with good reputations. Maybe because I was distracted by overall S4.

 

Eurus, if they make her brilliance more believable, I'd love her, but there are a lot of loopholes in her character that make me question too much about whether she is really a criminal or misguided person with strong psychopathy tendency.

[Carol the Dabbler]

We seem to be having a lot of agonizing over who's a true villain and who's merely an antagonist, whereas it seems to me that many stories have one or the other, meaning they serve the same basic purpose.

 

Artemis, would you have any objections to changing the title of the thread to include antagonists?

[Artemis]

No, you can change it if you like. I only chose this title for consistency: It matches the titles of the villain threads for series 1, 2, and 3. (P.S. There's no poll yet for the series 3 one!)

 

Villains and antagonists, personally it's all the same to me. Like you said, same basic function.

[Carol the Dabbler]

OK, done. And I added a couple more choices that Arcadia mentioned from TAB.

 

So now VOTE already!

 

By the way, the person who starts a thread can change the title at any time by editing their initial post.

[Boton]

I guess my favorite is Culverton Smith, just for the ick factor.  (Might be why I also "like" CAM as a villain.)  I "like" the way Smith gets his jollies from watching people actually die; that's some sick, twisted stuff there, and that makes for a good villain.

 

I like Eurus.  She's a villain, but I don't know that I think she's a purposeful villain.  To me, she's a victim of...something.  Maybe just the childhood prank gone horribly wrong, the intelligence to understand at too young an age what she had done but the emotional immaturity to not know what to do with this information.  In any event, I do like her, even if I also cringe a bit at the "secret psychopath sister" idea.

 

Mrs. Norbury has to win as best stealth villain. That's a real life villain -- someone who just cruises along under the radar until the day she's officially had enough, and she destroys lives before you even realize she's capable of it.  And she's a nice update on the ACD Norbury.

[Arcadia]

:D :D :D

(Grab popcorn to watch fight)

Ehh? It's over? You guys.. aiz.. there should be at least violin clonking or something. We are talking about favorite villains for macaroni sake!

 

 

Happy?

[Arcadia]

I finally settled for "villian who I was happiest to see Sherlock defeat" --- Smith. Since I could argue that he didn't actually defeat any of the others. ;)

[Carol the Dabbler]

Norbury reminded me a bit of the cabbie from ASiP. I liked her as a villain for the fact that her motivations were very human and relatable.

 

Mrs. Norbury has to win as best stealth villain. That's a real life villain -- someone who just cruises along under the radar until the day she's officially had enough, and she destroys lives before you even realize she's capable of it.  And she's a nice update on the ACD Norbury.

 

I have to agree with both of you regarding Vivian Norbury.  To me, she's a genuine villain, and just about the only one in this series.

 

 

... this is supposed to be a show about a detective, not Sadist of the Week.

 

And I think I finally put my finger on what bothers me about Series 3 and 4:  The big baddies are nearly all sadists of one sort or another, the type that simply enjoys making other people suffer, physically and/or emotionally -- in short, the kind of villain that used to twirl his mustache in melodramas.

 

I should clarify that -- I don't think Eurus is actually a sadist, she's more of a entomologist, studying humans as though they were beetles.  But the effect on me is so similar that I'll just lump her in there.  Also, even though Irene is obviously a professional sadist, I do *not* put her in the sadist-villain category.  She only whips people who enjoy that sort of thing, so she's not making anyone suffer in that sense.

 

I never have liked villains who are "bad because they're bad," and sadists come awfully close to that, especially as regards their effect on a story.  They really have no motivation other than liking to hurt people, which strikes me as pathetic rather than interesting.

 

I'm more into those relatable motivations that Artemis mentioned.  Like the cabbie who wanted to leave something for his kids, the gangster who wanted to retrieve what had been stolen from her, and the museum curator who wanted to make a fast 30 million.  Nearly as I recall, relatable villains were more Conan Doyle's cup of tea also -- crafty bank robbers, seekers of revenge, and stepfathers who prevented their stepdaughters from marrying just so they could retain control of their inheritance.

 

I'm hoping for more of that in Series 5.

[Arcadia]

I think Smith's motive was that it gave him pleasure to kill people, which makes him the creepiest villain to me. And CAM's was to own people, also creepy. I agree, I'm still of two minds ... several minds, really ...  about Eurus' motivations, or if she even had one.

 

In some ways the least believable motivation to me was Moriarty's ... to stave off boredom. But he's still the best villain.

[Artemis]

I think Smith's motive was that it gave him pleasure to kill people, which makes him the creepiest villain to me. And CAM's was to own people, also creepy.

 

And in another way, Smith's motive was similar to CAM's.  He said, "Dead people look like things.  I like to make people into things.  Then you can own them."

 

 

[Boton]

I think part of the reason that they took Smith the direction they did, apart from wanting to capitalize on the creepiness, is that they wanted to execute the "looming over Sherlock's hospital bed" scene the way they envisioned it.  As it stood, the Mary scene in HLV could be taken as a post-op hallucination (and the more I watch that episode, the more I think that's plausible if not likely), and the deleted CAM scene is not official canon.  The Smith scene undeniably happened, and it had the added, icky factor that there was that shot that kind of lingered on Smith's groin, which indicated to me that he got his jollies off of this kind of thing too.  {Shudder}  Yuck.  But great villain.

[Arcadia]

I was going to "like" that post but somehow it doesn't seem like quite the right response.... 

[Carol the Dabbler]

OK, so I "liked" it, and you can have half.
 
 

I never have liked villains who are "bad because they're bad," and sadists come awfully close to that, especially as regards their effect on a story.  They really have no motivation other than liking to hurt people, which strikes me as pathetic rather than interesting.
 
I'm more into those relatable motivations that Artemis mentioned....

 

I think Smith's motive was that it gave him pleasure to kill people, which makes him the creepiest villain to me. And CAM's was to own people, also creepy. I agree, I'm still of two minds ... several minds, really ...  about Eurus' motivations, or if she even had one.
 
In some ways the least believable motivation to me was Moriarty's ... to stave off boredom. But he's still the best villain.

 
Smith and CAM had the sort of "liking to hurt people" motives that I mentioned in the post I quoted above.  Call me weird, but I find Moriarty's "game playing" far more relatable.