The Language (and travel) Thread

[Julia Mae]

British person here, awake and ready to offer assistance!!

 

'Take-away' refers to any kind of food you buy at a restaurant and then take home to eat; it doesn't matter what kind of food it is. So yes; if you go to McDonalds and buy some food but want to eat it away from the restaurant, it's still called a take-away. But we refer to the food itself as fast-food.

 

Oh, excellent.  So, let's talk articles.  Imagine you go to the fridge and find all the food has yellow mold on it.  ew  You say to your friend, "There is take-away in our immediate future."  Or do you say, "There's a take-away in ..."   Or do you say "There is fast-food ..." 

 

I'm sorry to be so nit-picky, I just want to totally respect your way of speaking by reflecting it accurately.  I spend a lot of time everyday watching BBC on Netflix to try and get the cadence right.  I keep re-writing sentences so actors can speak them in that flow.

 

Also, I just read that in Tibet, BC had to make a blackboard out of lumbers.

 

LUMBERS?   (Does it mean "boards?")

 

[Julia Mae]

In Liverpool we don't use take-away for fast food, and don't always use it for things like kebabs or fish and chips from the chippy either. Take-away is usually reserved for Chinese/Indian/Greek/whatever food.

 

If we go to a fish and chip shop, we 'go the chippy' for whatever - a chippy dinner is usually fish or sausage, chips and mushy peas - and might be classed as take out, but not take-away (yeah, I don't get that either).

 

Macdonalds is specifically referred to as Maccy Ds so if you're going to the drive through you don't get take out or take away, but a Maccy D (no matter what you get in your bag). In fact, we tend to refer to all those branded/franchised fast food places by their names - burger king, wimpy, kfc. Pizza is pizza and not take out or take away and anything from Subway is 'a subway' no matter what you get in that.

 

Goodness knows what the rest of the country does!

 

You know aely, we should just post this whole thread on Wikipedia.  What a font of specific info you are!

 

[Julia Mae]

  What an education us Yanks are getting! But it sure will be a big help when writing up an English based fanfiction or a "cosy".

 

Seriously!  I love them so much for being so generous with their time, here.

 

[Liselle]

 

Oh, excellent.  So, let's talk articles.  Imagine you go to the fridge and find all the food has yellow mold on it.  ew  You say to your friend, "There is take-away in our immediate future."  Or do you say, "There's a take-away in ..."   Or do you say "There is fast-food ..." 

 

Well, 'there is take-away in our immediate future' sounds quite American to me; I'm not sure if British people would say that. That might just be me though; maybe other people would. But I'd be more inclined to say 'Looks like we're getting a take-away tonight' or something like that; it just sounds more naturally BE to me.

 

I

I'm sorry to be so nit-picky, I just want to totally respect your way of speaking by reflecting it accurately.

 

Honestly, don't worry about it! I'd much prefer someone to be nit-picky about it than attempt to replicate it and then get it completely wrong.

 

I spend a lot of time everyday watching BBC on Netflix to try and get the cadence right. I keep re-writing sentences so actors can speak them in that flow.

 

I think that's brilliant of you; I've read so many poorly-written fics about British characters by American authors who just don't bother to do the research into the way BE sounds before writing their stories, and it bugs me so much. So thank you for taking time over your work, Julia Mae, and big hugs from me for doing it *hugs*

 

 

LUMBERS? (Does it mean "boards?")

 

Lumbers? I've heard of 'lumber', in the singular, but not in the plural. Lumber is basically wood, or timber (i.e. 'lumberjack'; someone who chops wood).

[Julia Mae]

 

Well, 'there is take-away in our immediate future' sounds quite American to me; I'm not sure if British people would say that. That might just be me though; maybe other people would. But I'd be more inclined to say 'Looks like we're getting a take-away tonight' or something like that; it just sounds more naturally BE to me.

 

 

Thank you for telling me it "sounds quite American" and giving me an option.  That's  brilliant of you!

 

 

 

I think that's brilliant of you; I've read so many poorly-written fics about British characters by American authors who just don't bother to do the research into the way BE sounds before writing their stories, and it bugs me so much. So thank you for taking time over your work, Julia Mae, and big hugs from me for doing it *hugs*

 

 

You are most welcome, but I only can hope for approximation.  I have one character who says, "Fancy a walk in the park?" And then I thought wait, just because it's in Harry Potter, does the average British guy really says that?  I left it in, I figure Rowling knows better than I.  But I will defer to you.

 

 

Lumbers? I've heard of 'lumber', in the singular, but not in the plural. Lumber is basically wood, or timber (i.e. 'lumberjack'; someone who chops wood).

 

Same as here!  Unless "lumbers" is a verb, of course.  Maybe it was a typo.

[Liselle]

 

Thank you for telling me it "sounds quite American" and giving me an option.  That's  brilliant of you!

 

You're welcome! I'll always try and give an option if I can; I know it helps

 

I have one character who says, "Fancy a walk in the park?" And then I thought wait, just because it's in Harry Potter, does the average British guy really says that? I left it in, I figure Rowling knows better than I. But I will defer to you.

 

'Fancy a walk in the park?' is very British; it's just what we would say  

 

 

Same as here! Unless "lumbers" is a verb, of course. Maybe it was a typo.

 

I think it must have been a typo. 'To lumber' is a verb; it means 'to move slowly', but that doesn't really make any sense in this context

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

   In the Sherlock Holmes stories as Doyle wrote them, lumber can also refer to stuff stored in the attic room. I think his Sherlock Holmes refers to the stuff people put in their heads as lumber?

[Liselle]

Really? It must be quite an old-fashioned BE word then; I've not heard it used in that context before.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

  It goes back to the Victorian Age any way. Have no idea how old it was then.

[Carol the Dabbler]

What an education us Yanks are getting! But it sure will be a big help when writing up an English based fanfiction or a "cosy".

A cosy? I have not heard that word before. What does it mean?

 

I only knew it as the thingy you pull over your teapot so your tea stays hot.

 

Same word, cosy, referring to either the teapot or the mystery story.  (Note: it's spelt "cozy" in American.)  Both nouns are from the adjective, meaning warm and comfortable.

 

A "cosy" mystery is the sort where the murder takes place off-stage (or else the victim simply drops dead without much fuss), then is solved in a genteel manner.  The emphasis is on the mystery rather than on the violence.  In other words, it's the opposite genre to a blood-and-guts mystery.

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

My newest favorite toy, the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary, defines "lumber" (in the sense referred to above) as "pieces of furniture, and other large objects that you do not use any more."  The word is noted as British, but not marked as old-fashioned.  I suppose it might be regional, though.

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

  And in the "cozy" can be solved by retired detectives in nursing homes, a bevy of librarians, pastry cooks, the assorted cat and dog, quilters, antique shop keepers. Always pretty light but very well written for the most part. Real puzzlers.

[Julia Mae]

   In the Sherlock Holmes stories as Doyle wrote them, lumber can also refer to stuff stored in the attic room. I think his Sherlock Holmes refers to the stuff people put in their heads as lumber?

 

Yes, I almost forgot how, when I was a child, this kind of symbolism was common in adult writings.  It came, iirc, from Freudian basic theory as an explanation of the conscious, unconscious and subconscious.  The conscious being the main rooms of the house where we live out our daily lives.  The attic being the unconscious where we store all sorts of things that we only need to use occasionally and don't think of the rest of the time, and the basement or cellar as the subconscious where we keep our deep dark secrets.

 

It was a clumsy analogy at best, and somehow segued into "attic" being our heads.  Doyle uses that in a speech about what to keep up there, not so much clutter you can't find what you need, that Mofftiss turned into Sherlock's speech about not caring if the earth goes around the sun, because he only keeps what's really useful.  It was beautifully done, I thought.

 

But yes, attic as head, lumber as old furniture. 

 

OH!  And a cosy in terms of story means something you "cosy up in front of the fire" with, accompanied by cocoa and under a nice afghan, to read.  Drawing room mystery is best. 

 

[aely]

When I was a kid, jumble sales were sometimes referred to as lumber sales and they weren't the sort of sale that was selling furniture, just bric-a-brac, knick-knacks, old clothes, toys and the like.

 

A jumble sale isn't quite what I think you call a yard sale in the US - I think that's more akin to a car boot sale.

 

As for alternatives to "There is take-away in our immediate future."   that convo in my house would go something like

 

*open fridge* "Oh. There appears to be a biological weapon in the fridge." *close fridge* "Chinese?"

 

I might also say something along the lines of "I foresee a trip to the chippy/take-away in the not too distant future." That would be after closing the fridge pretty damn quick and turning my back on it.

 

 

Julia Mae, I'm also really pleased that you're trying to get the BE to flow - I still sometimes get bounced out of a fic by British characters coming out with things they would never say in a million years, though it doesn't bother me as much in the narrative.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Then there are British authors who really should know better than to attempt American dialog.  I've just read another novel in a series that I really enjoy.  This time the author introduces an American character (from Muncie, Indiana, yet!) who actually says "ginger hair."  Not unless he's a flaming Anglophile, he doesn't!

 

There's an American tradition that I haven't heard of for a long time, called a rummage sale.  It was sort of a forerunner of today's yard/garage sales, but generally held as a charity fundraiser.  Since the verb "rummage" means to sort through things in a haphazard kind of way, I'm guessing that a rummage sale is/was a linguistic cousin to your jumble/lumber sales.

 

[Julia Mae]

Julia Mae, I'm also really pleased that you're trying to get the BE to flow - I still sometimes get bounced out of a fic by British characters coming out with things they would never say in a million years, though it doesn't bother me as much in the narrative.

 

The thing about script-writing is, if it gets produced it will probably have at least one actual British actor in one of the three roles that are written as British characters.  The actors themselves can make the language more authentic, of course.  BUT -  the script is also likely to be read by British readers or producers.  These are the ones I am trying to not "bounce out" (great way to put it) of the story.  I'm just hoping for a bit of flow and no jarring mis-uses of language.

 

Y'all are delightfully kind to help out!

 

[Julia Mae]

Then there are British authors who really should know better than to attempt American dialog.  I've just read another novel in a series that I really enjoy.  This time the author introduces an American character (from Muncie, Indiana, yet!) who actually says "ginger hair."  Not unless he's a flaming Anglophile, he doesn't!

 

Here's what I don't understand about either novels or TV/movies.  If you know your product will be distributed outside of your country, why not just have it read by someone from that country?

 

I mean, seriously, these days, they can just email the file and have it read through. 

 

My daughter used to work with a woman who's mom worked for the American publisher of the Potter books and I know they went back and forth with Rowling and "Americanized" a lot of the language, though it still took me a while to figure out pudding was dessert.   Anyway, there's some sort of precedent for doing this.

[Liselle]

If I may just jump in with another BE observation...

 

We use both 'pudding' and 'dessert' in BE, but 'dessert' is really only used for what you'd get at a restaurant (we also use the term 'sweet'). If you're having a 'pudding', you're most likely having it at home, after your dinner. 'Pudding' is the more informal term.

[Caya]

But how do you differ between pudding as in dessert and pudding as in the dish? Or would that be pudding for pudding?

[Liselle]

Yeah, if it's 'bread and butter pudding' or something and you're having it after dinner, you'd be having pudding for pudding

[Julia Mae]

If I may just jump in with another BE observation...

 

We use both 'pudding' and 'dessert' in BE, but 'dessert' is really only used for what you'd get at a restaurant (we also use the term 'sweet'). If you're having a 'pudding', you're most likely having it at home, after your dinner. 'Pudding' is the more informal term.

 

It's great to have these distinctions.  So "dessert" is a course during a meal, but "pudding" - while it often comes after a meal, could also be  - maybe - eaten in front of the telly in the evening?   Or is it only the informal reference to the sweet finish to ... dinner?  Supper? 

 

[Julia Mae]

Yeah, if it's 'bread and butter pudding' or something and you're having it after dinner, you'd be having pudding for pudding

 

OK, I'll ask.  What is "bread and butter" pudding?  In the US, pudding is thickened, milk-based, sweetened, smooth yummy stuff, often chocolate, but can be many flavors.  Like mousse only denser.  Or custard but without eggs. 

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

   And  here in the US we actually do have a lot of "Bread" puddings. Puddings made with bread.

[Julia Mae]

   And of course, here in the US we actually do have a lot of "Bread" puddings.

 

Well, we have recipes for them, I hardly know anyone who makes them.  I haven't made one in decades.  Maybe I will this winter.  But I didn't want to assume Liselle meant the same thing.  It was a great way to use up old bread ends, though. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Bread pudding -- yum!

 

Do you also have what's generically called "pudding" here -- sort of a creamy-textured milk-based sweet substance, flavored with (e.g.) chocolate, vanilla, butterscotch etc.?  I'm trying to think of a better description of the texture -- it's generally served cold (but not frozen), and will partially stand up by itself, but you couldn't cut it into pieces because it's far too soft for that.