The Language (and travel) Thread

[Julia Mae]

 

Americans often say "balls!" when they mean something is total "B.S." (untrue)

 

You know, I don't think I've ever actually heard anyone (American or otherwise) use "balls" in that context, though I have read it in some of Rex Stout's Nero Wolfe detective stories.  I had been assuming that it was an old-fashioned term, not used much these days.  But if you're familiar with it, then I'm wondering if it might be a regionalism.  Where have you heard it, Julia Mae -- Colorado or Rhode Island or -- ?

 

 

It's less that I hear it than that I use it.   The first place I heard it was in my family.   And in my growing-up culture.  Maybe you don't hear it because you travel in more refined circles than I do!  Unless you know a lot of steelworkers and cops.  That locale would be Northern Ohio.

 

But I'm more interested in the British meaning of their word.

 

[Julia Mae]

Also, American men, men "pick up" women.  What do British men do?

 

(I just realized that's a heck of a straight line.  "Get drunk in pubs and go home alone" was not what I had in mind!)

[Caya]

Well according to Watching the English, they mostly annoy them (if the link doesn't open up the book at the page it's supposed to, search for seriously irritated, which is telling in and of itself) .

[Julia Mae]

Well according to Watching the English, they mostly annoy them (if the link doesn't open up the book at the page it's supposed to, search for "seriously irritated", which is telling in and of itself) .

 

I edited too late!  LOL!

 

[Caya]

Well, joking aside, that book has a whole chapter on English courtship rituals. Not sure how much of this is readable online, however, but I could try and find my old paperback edition if that helps.

[Liselle]

 

 I know (I think) that "bloke" means a man.  But does it have connotations?  Does it mean a certain sort of man?  Is it in common useage?  Or is it, like some other words, only used by certain classes or in certain localities?

 

Yes, 'bloke' means a man. I suppose it does have certain connotations; a bloke is generally understood to be the typical English man; somebody who enjoys going to the pub for a few beers and watching the football with his mates I would say a bloke is a very manly man, if you know what I mean. It's a slang term, so upper class people wouldn't really use it, but I think it's used by everyone else pretty much across the whole country; I don't think it has any geographical usage in particular.

 

Also, Americans often say "balls!" when they mean something is total "B.S." (untrue) Do the British use "bollocks" the same way?

 

I wasn't aware that Americans used 'balls'; I thought that was an entirely British thing. But yes, 'bollocks' is used in exactly the same way. It's also used as an exclamation when something's gone wrong, for example.

[aely]

I use bollocks an awful lot - one of my favourite phrases being "That's total bollocks" or "that's a load of bollocks"

 

English guys will go 'on the pull' and might pick up someone. The connotations of picking up a woman is that it won't be the sort with whom you are looking to have a long term relationship.

 

Bloke in general terms does mean just a guy, but if someone is called very 'blokey' then they tend to be stereotypically masculine and into masculine pursuits. They become a 'bit of a lad' instead of a bloke if they binge drink and pick up a lot of women.

[Julia Mae]

 

 

 I know (I think) that "bloke" means a man.  But does it have connotations?  Does it mean a certain sort of man?  Is it in common useage?  Or is it, like some other words, only used by certain classes or in certain localities?

 

Yes, 'bloke' means a man. I suppose it does have certain connotations; a bloke is generally understood to be the typical English man; somebody who enjoys going to the pub for a few beers and watching the football with his mates I would say a bloke is a very manly man, if you know what I mean. It's a slang term, so upper class people wouldn't really use it, but I think it's used by everyone else pretty much across the whole country; I don't think it has any geographical usage in particular.

 

Also, Americans often say "balls!" when they mean something is total "B.S." (untrue) Do the British use "bollocks" the same way?

 

I wasn't aware that Americans used 'balls'; I thought that was an entirely British thing. But yes, 'bollocks' is used in exactly the same way. It's also used as an exclamation when something's gone wrong, for example.

 

 

Thanks so much!   If what Carol says is any indication, the use of "balls" by Americans might have either fallen out of use with the younger generation or be a regional thing in the industrial North around the Great Lakes.   It's still common in my house, however!

 

 

[Julia Mae]

Well, joking aside, that book has a whole chapter on English courtship rituals. Not sure how much of this is readable online, however, but I could try and find my old paperback edition if that helps.

 

I was trying to figure out, if a couple  guys are talking, how a British bloke would ask, "So you picked her up in a bar?"

 

I noticed when I watched Hawking, the two American scientists, obviously played by British actors, talking about the pigeons they found in the receiver.  One says, "You won't believe what we did."  The other says, "We posted the pigeons."  So, before they explain, I'm thinking: Why would they autopsy the pigeons?

 

They mailed them.  OHHHHHHH!

 

Right now I am writing a script set in the US but with two British male characters.  Seems easy enough when they are speaking to Americans, but in some scenes they are speaking only to one another.  Then, their speech will change, as friends do, become more informal and use more vernacular. 

 

I don't have a freakin' clue how to do that.

 

I bet they don't say "freakin'."

[Julia Mae]

I use bollocks an awful lot - one of my favourite phrases being "That's total bollocks" or "that's a load of bollocks"

 

English guys will go 'on the pull' and might pick up someone. The connotations of picking up a woman is that it won't be the sort with whom you are looking to have a long term relationship.

 

Bloke in general terms does mean just a guy, but if someone is called very 'blokey' then they tend to be stereotypically masculine and into masculine pursuits. They become a 'bit of a lad' instead of a bloke if they binge drink and pick up a lot of women.

 

I love "bit of a lad."  Inherently understated!   So, it wouldn't be odd to say, "You went on the pull last night, did you?"

 

"Blokey" the way you describe it sounds a bit like the now out-dated "macho."    But to just say, "He's nice bloke," would not carry that meaning?

 

[Julia Mae]

Also, could we talk about the difference between "think" and "reckon?"  If an American said, "I reckon I'll go watch TV," he'd be taken for someone from a southern or western area.  It'd be local dialect.  Very John Wayne.  It carries the connotation that the speaker is not well-educated. Otherwise, "reckon" really means something like "calculate." 

 

But when I read Harry Potter, I got the impression the British use it the way we do "think."  So, if I said, "I thought it would be fine," if I were British I could say, "I reckoned it would be fine," and mean the same thing?

[Carol the Dabbler]

If an American said, "I reckon I'll go watch TV," he'd be taken for someone from a southern or western area.  It'd be local dialect.  Very John Wayne.  It carries the connotation that the speaker is not well-educated.

 

Yup, I use "reckon" -- so there you go! 

 

 

(Good grief, now I'm channeling Dennis Weaver!)

[aely]

If you said someone was a nice bloke, you'd be meaning it in general terms - you could say someone was a nice guy, or a nice man but if you say nice man you generally come across as sounding like a nosy old woman.

 

Reckon in English is akin to calculate or think, as in day of reckoning, but when it's used in place of think it tends to be more colloquial in usage

 

example

 

"Do you think it's going to rain?"

 

"Reckon it might"

[Julia Mae]

If you said someone was a nice bloke, you'd be meaning it in general terms - you could say someone was a nice guy, or a nice man but if you say nice man you generally come across as sounding like a nosy old woman.

 

Reckon in English is akin to calculate or think, as in day of reckoning, but when it's used in place of think it tends to be more colloquial in usage

 

example

 

"Do you think it's going to rain?"

 

"Reckon it might"

 

Thank you.  I did want to use the word "thought" because I love the way it sounds coming from British actors.

 

Maybe we should use BE for "British English" and AE for "American English."  Is there an SE for "Scouseland English?" 

 

[Liselle]

 

I bet they don't say "freakin'."

 

 

Not really. Younger people (and, for some reason, usually girls) might say "frickin'" or "fecking", but it's not very common, and 'fecking' is more of an Irish word. As an equivalent for 'freakin'", 'bloody' comes pretty close. Or, if you wanted to be more polite, 'bloomin'". But 'bloomin'" is said more by women, too, and more likely older women.

 

So, it wouldn't be odd to say, "You went on the pull last night, did you?"

 

Not odd at all; that's exactly what we would say

 

"Blokey" the way you describe it sounds a bit like the now out-dated "macho." But to just say, "He's nice bloke," would not carry that meaning?

 

"He's a nice bloke" is fine. It would still infer that the man is a very masculine person, but it's not derogatory in any way.

 

Maybe we should use BE for "British English" and AE for "American English." Is there an SE for "Scouseland English?"

 

Not that I know of Dialects in Britain just tend to be called by their nicknames, so the Liverpool accent is Scouse, the Newcastle accent is Geordie, the Birmingham accent is Brummie, etc.

[Caya]

 

Thanks so much!   If what Carol says is any indication, the use of "balls" by Americans might have either fallen out of use with the younger generation or be a regional thing in the industrial North around the Great Lakes.   It's still common in my house, however!

 

I can't help much with the British, I'm afraid (English is more or less all the same degree of foreign to me, and "Watching the English" is more about mannerisms than linguistics), but I do remember Dr. Horrible, in his eponymous Sing-Along Blog, using "balls" as an expression of extreme frustration:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=qVBjS22ppdw#t=825

 

Joss Whedon is from New York afaik, if that helps.

 

Speaking of "picking up", I might have one observation that could help, but that's more a general European-vs-US culture thing than a specifically British one - generally speaking (and I'm aware that this is a very broad stroke of the brush) Europeans don't do "dates". Well of course we go on dates, but we don't formally label them as such. To Europeans in general, this is a rather weird concept from what I've seen, pigeon-holing something that could go any number of ways so early in a not-even-yet-relationship.

[Undead Medic]

If a bunch of British blokes are 'out on the pull' they may well attempt to 'chat up' a woman who takes their fancy, although this term seems to be rapidly falling out of favour due to its misogynistic overtones. (At least I've not heard it used in seriousness for a while)

[Carol the Dabbler]

If a bunch of British blokes are 'out on the pull' they may well attempt to 'chat up' a woman who takes their fancy, although this term seems to be rapidly falling out of favour due to its misogynistic overtones. (At least I've not heard it used in seriousness for a while)

 

So the activity is still practiced, but referring to it as "chatting up" is considered misogynistic? 

 

[Julia Mae]

 

If a bunch of British blokes are 'out on the pull' they may well attempt to 'chat up' a woman who takes their fancy, although this term seems to be rapidly falling out of favour due to its misogynistic overtones. (At least I've not heard it used in seriousness for a while)

 

So the activity is still practiced, but referring to it as "chatting up" is considered misogynistic? 

 

 

I'm not sure, but I think "out on the pull" is the reference, here.  But then, I tend to have a low imagination!

 

[Julia Mae]

 

 

I bet they don't say "freakin'."

 

 

Not really. Younger people (and, for some reason, usually girls) might say "frickin'" or "fecking", but it's not very common, and 'fecking' is more of an Irish word. As an equivalent for 'freakin'", 'bloody' comes pretty close. Or, if you wanted to be more polite, 'bloomin'". But 'bloomin'" is said more by women, too, and more likely older women.

 

So, it wouldn't be odd to say, "You went on the pull last night, did you?"

 

Not odd at all; that's exactly what we would say

 

"Blokey" the way you describe it sounds a bit like the now out-dated "macho." But to just say, "He's nice bloke," would not carry that meaning?

 

"He's a nice bloke" is fine. It would still infer that the man is a very masculine person, but it's not derogatory in any way.

 

Maybe we should use BE for "British English" and AE for "American English." Is there an SE for "Scouseland English?"

 

Not that I know of Dialects in Britain just tend to be called by their nicknames, so the Liverpool accent is Scouse, the Newcastle accent is Geordie, the Birmingham accent is Brummie, etc.

 

 

Thank you so much, Liselle, seriously.  I have made some dialogue changes that I hope give these characters more depth of personality as well as more natural exchanges. 

 

 

[Julia Mae]

 

Speaking of "picking up", I might have one observation that could help, but that's more a general European-vs-US culture thing than a specifically British one - generally speaking (and I'm aware that this is a very broad stroke of the brush) Europeans don't do "dates". Well of course we go on dates, but we don't formally label them as such. To Europeans in general, this is a rather weird concept from what I've seen, pigeon-holing something that could go any number of ways so early in a not-even-yet-relationship.

 

 

The problem is: we don't have pubs.  At least, I think this is why it's different.  Or, we didn't for a very long time and when we got something like them, they were for men only, no respectable woman and certainly not a family, would spend the evening in such a place.  Women of any kind were usually asked to leave by the management, that was right up to the 60s and 70s.

 

You had dances for group socializing, church functions, but pretty much to get to know one another, you go do something as a couple. 

 

My impression of the English Pub is a place that is local, possibly the only one in a village or small area, and people who live for generations in the same place, gather there.  It has anthropological implications, but that's a whole other thing.

 

AND - most "dating" is in the movies and on TV.  Kids tend to hang out.  At the mall, at the drive-in back in the day, at parks or playgrounds. 

[Liselle]

 

So the activity is still practiced, but referring to it as "chatting up" is considered misogynistic? 

 

I wouldn't necessarily call it misogynistic, although I suppose, to me anyway, it does bring to mind someone who's a bit of a creep But I don't think the phrase 'chatting up' is meant to be construed that way. A man could say that he met his wife by chatting her up in a bar or something, for example. If a man's good at chatting someone up, it comes across as charming rather than creepy, which is how I think it's supposed to be understood. If that makes any sense at all

 

 

Thank you so much, Liselle, seriously. I have made some dialogue changes that I hope give these characters more depth of personality as well as more natural exchanges.

 

 You're welcome! Glad I can help Languages are one of my passions, so I love these sorts of discussions

 

 

My impression of the English Pub is a place that is local, possibly the only one in a village or small area, and people who live for generations in the same place, gather there.

 

 

That's pretty much correct Even if you live in a tiny village, 95% of them will have, at the very least, a church, a shop and a pub. But if you live in a bigger town, you might get four or five pubs. The area I live in is classed as a small town, and we have 4 pubs, for example.

 

Not all pubs are the same though; some are what's known as 'gastro pubs' and will focus just as heavily on the food they serve as well as the alcohol. Family pubs are just what they say; based around family entertainment. And then you  get what people (in my area, at least) call 'gentlemen's pubs', which are really old pubs that have been around for a very long time, where you get 'regulars'; people who go in at the same sort of time every day and have a few drinks with friends; mostly older people. You also get themed pubs, like Irish pubs or Karaoke pubs, for example.  

[Julia Mae]

 

 You're welcome! Glad I can help Languages are one of my passions, so I love these sorts of discussions

 

 

The trick with language, even when we are supposedly sharing one, is getting the connotations and local jargon right.  The US is such a big country and we have so many cultures and sub-cultures, we have these issues often even with one another.  On a hot summer day during a car trip, my father once went into a small store and asked for six "pops."   Instead of handing him bottles of soda, the man put six popsicles into a bag.  Dad was too embarrassed to correct him and we all had to eat really fast to keep them from melting all over the inside of the car.   He should have said "sodas" and we were only two hundred miles form home!

 

About an hour ago, the maintenance guy at my apartment was looking for a ... I think he said "four-way."  He meant an  "x-wrench."   And I'm willing to bet a few people here would have a different word.

 

I put a whole page on my blog to explain what "boffin" means for Americans.  To our ears, it sounds like a synonym for "shagging." 

 

This is why I never read poetry in translation.  You might get the meanings of the words, but you never get the subtleties and nuance.

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I put a whole page on my blog to explain what boffin means for Americans.

Well there! Learn something new everyday, I hope. I was wondering what that word meant. Thank you Julia for clearing that up for me and a whole lot of other folks as well, no doubt.

[aely]

Liverpool is known for having a 'pub on every corner' and this isn't just in the city centre. I live in a more suburban area and there are 3 pubs within 10 minutes walk of my house and probably another 9 or 10 within 20 minutes or so walk.