Subtext Interpretation... What Do You See?

[Janie]

For me the goodbye scene was more emotional than the end of TRF. I don't know how someone can see it as cold. Or would you be happier to see the two of them hugging and sobbing? That would have been so out of character for both Sherlock and John. Remember that John has problem expressing his feelings and Sherlock isn't very good at it either.

 

I could clearly see how John was trying to hide his emotions and Sherlock saw it too. That's why he offered him a handshake and said the joke about Sherlock being a girl's name. He was trying to make John laugh because he saw how hard it was for him to say goodbye again.

 

And by the way, maybe John would have reacted differently if he had known that Sherlock was flying to his death.

[Caya]

John knew that Sherlock was flying to his death, or at least that they would likely never meet again. And while I'm all for a stiff British upper lip, there are times and places where it is unwarranted, and saying your last goodbye to someone who is supposed to be your best friend is, imho.

 

As I said, I'm glad that many people seem to find enjoyment in Vow and the runway scene, and more power to all of you . For me, however, it was the low point of an already disappointing episode. Opinions seem to be as polarized on the goodbye as on Mary, and I doubt we're going to convince each other of our respective interpretations . So I must ask you to simply respect mine - yes, I found John cold and I'm very disappointed in him.

[Janie]

Of course I do respect your opinion, Caya, and I don't want to convince you of anything, I'm just sorry you find John cold and dissapointing when I just don't see the coldness there at all. On the otherside I completely understand why people don't like Mary though I still do.

[Slithytove]

I thought HLV was an excellent episode - wrenching, heartbreaking and controversial - but a couple of scenes enraged me. One was the Xmas reconciliation scene, of course, but the other was the airfield farewell. I understand that John struggles to express emotion but he isn't wholly incapable of it - he isn't a robot - and he is supposed to be losing, for the second time, one of the most important people in his life. Sherlock stands there, practically leaking emotion from every pore, and John gives him nothing in return. Not even when Sherlock says they're unlikely to ever meet again.....Come on, John, for God's sake! No-one expects you to collapse in a blubbering heap, but you can't manage anything better than "We're not naming our daughter after you"?

 

I thought it was further evidence of Mary's creepiness that she is there at what appears to be the end. Not content with going round to her victim's parents' house for Xmas, she turns up to see him off to his death after he has thrown away his own life to protect her. She shows about as much sadness as if she was seeing him off for a fortnight's holiday.......Genuine psychopath stuff.

 

In view of the topic of this thread, I've got admit that I'm a Johnlock shipper, though I never expect it to become canon. Not even sure I want it to - spelling out the attraction between two characters often destroys the tension in the relationship. I know people sometimes assume that people who like Johnlock don't like Mary because she gets in the way, but that's not true. For a start, a lot of people do like her and either see her in a poly relationship with the two men, or giving them her blessing to their love or providing a reason for Sherlock to pine for John from a distance....Personally, I never thought she would be a problem, judging by the flexible imaginations of Johnlock fanfic writers who will cheerfully ignore the existence of anything which gets in the way.....My own dislike of Mary is based wholly on her actions. I thought she was lovely, up to the point when she shot Sherlock...

 

So Mary isn't such a problem for Johnlock shippers, but John in HLV is a difficulty, I think. For the first time, I doubted his devotion to Sherlock and that made me a little sad.

[wildwoodflower]

John knew that Sherlock was flying to his death, or at least that they would likely never meet again. And while I'm all for a stiff British upper lip, there are times and places where it is unwarranted, and saying your last goodbye to someone who is supposed to be your best friend is, imho.

 

 

 

I think you're mistaken about this though. John asks and Sherlock hedges a bit but tells him six months or so, I'm pretty sure.

Unless you think John is being willfully obtuse about a man he cares for deeply but often can't figure out? 

[sherlockandjohn]

It's funny how we can all see the same series and interpret it so differently. For me, Vow was really gut-wrenching, and John's indifference and coldness as he gave Sherlock (who was flying to his death because of something he'd done for John) a lukewarm handshake and then happily returned to the side of the woman who'd killed the man who still considered him a friend was the last straw. But I'm glad to see that the series still brings joy to others .

 

 I feel a bit bad for you, and I know how you feel. I felt a little like that at one point, and there are parts of the goodbye scene that I'm not fond of - the parts involving Mary. Her hugging Sherlock, and just standing by John as if she had nothing to do with him flying off. Yes, Sherlock made the decision to pull the trigger, but she must have been very relieved that he did. I would have felt very bad about myself in her place.

 

So I don't like that John takes her hand and stands by her, but since Sherlock wasn't bothered by that - he hugged her himself - it doesn't ruin the goodbye between Sherlock and John for me. I find that I can fortunately separate those two bits.

 

This being a subtext thread, I must say that I feel the goodbye scene has a good deal of just that. Sherlock makes a joke, but his smile is very small, and he looks like he's about to cry. I believe that's completely intended. This is a very difficult moment for both of them. John also sounds about to cry when he laughs. You can hear the wet tears in that laughter.

 

But, of course, those things mean little from the point of view that John has forgiven that Mary shot Sherlock and is now standing by her side, when it's basically her fault that his best friend is flying off for good. What changed my perspective was to remember that Sherlock himself forgave Mary, even excused her action, and told John to do the same. Then he risked his own future for both their sakes. If John was to turn her away, how would that make Sherlock feel, having gone through so much to help them work things out and be safe?

 

I would, however, love to see John continue to struggle with his forgiveness. I feel that in HLV he still hasn't entirely forgiven Sherlock for faking his death (understandably), so I hope (but have my doubts) that we'll see some clashes between John and Mary.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I actually thought the end of "HLV" very touching myself. I can understand John's unbalance throughout the season. He's thrown one curve ball after another. But even if the scene at the airfield seems a little lukewarm there are looks and glances on both their faces that speak volume's. John is not untouched by it all.

 

And the observation of John and Mary holding hands as Sherlock's plane returns as they did at his grave is brilliant. In both cases Sherlock is returning. It's just that in the first case it's a complete shock. In the second case John is fully aware and names Sherlock as the avenging East Wind. Still love that line.

 

 Now to switch gears a little bit, but still very much subtext, I think. I was looking through a catalog looking for a perfume and I come across an advertisement for Princess Diana's signature scent called, of all things, "Bluebell". I was taken immediately back to "The Hound of the Baskervilles" and Sherlock's question, "Why did Bluebell have to die?"  I don't think I'll be able to watch that episode in quite the same way again.

[sherlockandjohn]

Hmm, understandable!

[Slithytove]

 

 

John knew that Sherlock was flying to his death, or at least that they would likely never meet again. And while I'm all for a stiff British upper lip, there are times and places where it is unwarranted, and saying your last goodbye to someone who is supposed to be your best friend is, imho.

 

 

I think you're mistaken about this though. John asks and Sherlock hedges a bit but tells him six months or so, I'm pretty sure.

Unless you think John is being willfully obtuse about a man he cares for deeply but often can't figure out?

But Sherlock does say they are unlikely ever to meet again. Surely John must realise that that means Sherlock expects to die? If not, why wouldn't they meet again someday? Even if he went undercover for years, let alone six months, there would be a good chance he would come home sooner or later. John must surely understand the subtext of "it's unlikely we'll meet again."

 

In fact, that is the point where I feel that the man whose heart was broken after Reichenbach would show some sign of pain when he realised it was all happening again. I wouldn't expect hysterics.....but something, surely.

[sherlockandjohn]

I actually think John doesn't know that Sherlock is going to his death. But that's just me guessing, of course. He's never told, and I think it's plausible that John would expect Sherlock to be kept away from England permanently because of his crime. In other words, his punishment was not prison or death, but deportation.

[sherlockandjohn]

Come to think of it, why would Sherlock use the phrase, 'it is unlikely that we will ever meet again'? Why the word 'unlikely' if John knew Sherlock was going to his death?

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I'm of the same mind as you, sherlockandJohn.

 

Mycroft says that putting Sherlock in prison was not an option. The British citizenry would put on protests and revolts daily. Plus all the murder attempts that would be made on Sherlock by all the criminals that Sherlock had helped to put in those same prisons.

 

 So no, I don't think John has a clue the extent of this last meeting is all about. I think he sees this as a permanent exile, not a death sentence.

[Janie]

I actually think John doesn't know that Sherlock is going to his death. But that's just me guessing, of course. He's never told, and I think it's plausible that John would expect Sherlock to be kept away from England permanently because of his crime. In other words, his punishment was not prison or death, but deportation.

 

My thoughts exactly. 

[Caya]

But if it were just exile, surely John could, dunno, go visit him some time? Even if Sherlock's barred from ever returning to Britain, or even the Commonwealth, again, there's nothing stopping John from taking a plane and leaving the country. Even if Sherlock's deeply undercover, Mycroft could arrange for that. So either John knows that Sherlock expects to die or he doesn't plan to visit his nominally best friend, ever, and I'm not sure which interpretation is creepier, really.

[Janie]

Maybe John was told that Sherlock wasn't allowed to see him ever again. It could be a part of his punishment.

[T.o.b.y]

Yay, my favorite thread is revived and thriving! First of all: Hurray for women who are actually willing and able to disagree on something (without hating each other in the process) - it's a rare quality. This funny little TV series seems to attract a cool type of person...

 

First of all, I have real trouble feeling too sorry for Sherlock these days, especially when he seems to be "leaking emotion at every pore" or about to tear up. I keep remembering Reichenbach - that rooftop phone call - and the alarm bells in my head go off clanging "sucker! sucker!" I suspect it's similar for John. He just can't ever trust Sherlock any more (remember the train scene in The Empty Hearse?). No wonder he's more wary than ever of showing any kind of emotion towards him or even giving himself over to feeling it! But I'm sure that John loves his friend just as much as I do and always will. I don't feel betrayed by the character or the series, I'm just wary of my heart getting the better of my brain and so "Sherlock" makes its point once again in a very, very clever way.

 

 

[sherlockandjohn]

That's an interesting perspective. But sad. Living like that, never believing your friend, always second-guessing. I suppose I would understand it, considering that it's Sherlock we're talking about.... but no, that's just too sad. I hope John keeps having some faith in Sherlock. He came off as very sincere in HLV. Well, except for the Janine thing...

 

 

And yes, I also figure that them never meeting again is part of the punishment. Of course, Mycroft could overrule that, but that's the part where I believe the writers have just not bothered coming up with more of an explanation. I know they're smart, but sometimes I wonder if they're given too much credit. Or rather, I believe they decide that some things are just not very important (to themselves - they obviously are to the fans... but there's only so far one can go to satisfy everyone).

[T.o.b.y]

That's an interesting perspective. But sad. Living like that, never believing your friend, always second-guessing. I suppose I would understand it, considering that it's Sherlock we're talking about.... but no, that's just too sad. I hope John keeps having some faith in Sherlock. He came off as very sincere in HLV. Well, except for the Janine thing...

 

I don't think it's a sad notion... It's just accepting Sherlock for who he is, an impossible, "ridiculous man". My impression is John can find it in himself to like him very well without needing to understand him, just as he can throw information on Mary's past into the fire and go, so to speak, oh what the heck, I just love her anyway.

[sherlockandjohn]

Aha, so you're thinking John is not really that bothered by not being able to trust Sherlock anymore? Hm. I suppose that makes sense, considering the fact that he knows Sherlock very well. He always does seem to accept him, no matter what Sherlock has been up to.

[T.o.b.y]

Aha, so you're thinking John is not really that bothered by not being able to trust Sherlock anymore? Hm. I suppose that makes sense, considering the fact that he knows Sherlock very well. He always does seem to accept him, no matter what Sherlock has been up to.

 

Oh, I think he was very bothered about the Reichenbach incident (and always will be - my impression is John Watson may forgive, but never forget), but he's had to realize that his anger won't change his friend one bit and he can either resignedly accept him for the nut case he is or forget about him altogether. The acceptance strategy must involve a lot of "yeah, whatever", though, and a lot of trying not to get himself worked up about things that might very well turn out to be fake, anyway.

 

[sherlockandjohn]

He! Maybe I should follow John's example, then...

[Arcadia]

I took the handshake a slightly different way (of course! Give me 10 people, I'll give you 10 different viewpoints!) ... to me, it showed two men who were so close, and who had already said so much to each other, that there was no need for further words or actions. There is simply complete acceptance of one another. A teary farewell would have been, at best, out of character (they have both amply demonstrated how hard it is for them to show feelings) and at worst, trite. That's what those OTHER shows would have done.... I thought it was magnificent, actually.

However, since I am far more of a softy than either John or Sherlock ... if that plane hadn't turned around, I don't think I could've borne it. For that alone I will forgive Moftiss just about anything else. :-)

[T.o.b.y]

since I am far more of a softy than either John or Sherlock ... if that plane hadn't turned around, I don't think I could've borne it. For that alone I will forgive Moftiss just about anything else. :-)

 

Mhm, me too. Even though it did ruin a perfectly beautiful poetic moment, it would have been way too sad an ending for a series that won't be continued for another two years at least. I don't know whether I can forgive Moriarty's resurrection though.

 

[Arcadia]

Actually, I remember thinking that was another reason the ending was so brilliant ... if we'd had a big, emotional, huggy-kissy farewell, and THEN the plane turned around, I think we would've all felt ... well, cheated.

 

As to Moriarty's return ... for me, it just depends on how they do it. I'm hoping it will be a different person, that would feel less like ... er, cheating.

[sherlockandjohn]

I took the handshake a slightly different way (of course! Give me 10 people, I'll give you 10 different viewpoints!) ... to me, it showed two men who were so close, and who had already said so much to each other, that there was no need for further words or actions. There is simply complete acceptance of one another. A teary farewell ... That's what those OTHER shows would have done...

 

 

I think you're right. Most shows would have gone for more a more open show of feelings. I understand why many find this scene less than satisfying - like you say, people are very different, and I myself like it when the characters tell how they feel. But this scene really works for me, for some reason. Maybe it's the attention to detail: How John takes a deep breath and looks in agony when Sherlock says to Mycroft, "Since this is likely the last conversation I will have with John Watson..." How neither of them know how to express what they feel, and yet they cannot just say "goodbye" and then leave, either. They stay and talk. In fact, it's so hard for them to say goodbye that they don't. Or how they're both on the verge on tears, when Sherlock makes a joke, and then Sherlock says, "I think it could work" and gives a very small smile that fades into something sad. And how John looks at Sherlock's extended hand for several seconds before taking it, clearly arguing with himself about how he can do this, how he's supposed to let his best friend go. Perhaps wondering if he should say something more. That's how I feel, anyway, like they both want to say more, but don't know what.

 

I find it so moving, I'm almost making myself cry just describing this scene.

 

So much subtext.