Episode 3.2, "The Sign of Three"

[jesskayding]

 

And I'm saying this here & now.. If Sherlock & Molly end up in a serious relationship, uhm yes I would stop watching. I would completely hate that. I feel it wouldn't fit Sherlock @ all.

So, basically, John can have sex (with a woman) but Sherlock can't? Poor boy.

 

Irene, yes. Janine, yes. Molly, no. Mrs. Hudson, no. Some woman with a brilliant mind and dangerous ( not boring, like Molly ) personality, yes.

 

Now I've also posted before they would have to almost completely rewrite Molly's personality & her appearance to be a good match for the exquisite tastes of Sherlock. Other than that - I would never buy it - it would sicken me, because I would then know that they wrote that in for "Sherlolly's" versus keeping the integrity of the show in tact.

[Janie]

 

Irene, yes. Janine, yes. Molly, no. Mrs. Hudson, no. Some woman with a brilliant mind and dangerous ( not boring, like Molly ) personality, yes.

 

Now I've also posted before they would have to almost completely rewrite Molly's personality & her appearance to be a good match for the exquisite tastes of Sherlock. Other than that - I would never buy it - it would sicken me, because I would then know that they wrote that in for "Sherlolly's" versus keeping the integrity of the show in tact.

 

 

I'd rather see Sherlock with Molly than with Janine. Never noticed she had a brilliant mind  But I still hope that Sherlock will stay alone. 

[jesskayding]

 

 

Irene, yes. Janine, yes. Molly, no. Mrs. Hudson, no. Some woman with a brilliant mind and dangerous ( not boring, like Molly ) personality, yes.

 

Now I've also posted before they would have to almost completely rewrite Molly's personality & her appearance to be a good match for the exquisite tastes of Sherlock. Other than that - I would never buy it - it would sicken me, because I would then know that they wrote that in for "Sherlolly's" versus keeping the integrity of the show in tact.

 

I'd rather see Sherlock with Molly than with Janine. Never noticed she had a brilliant mind But I still hope that Sherlock will stay alone.

 

Are you serious? Seriously. Are you serious? Janine knew she was being used & decided to have fun with it. She was playing Sherlock the entire time he thought that he was playing her. As Sherlock would say "Neat". On top of that she became wealthy as a result. I'd say she avoided getting Sherlocked!

 

Also Sherlock couldn't help but admire her a little for being clever enough to know what he was up to. And she was always so put together. So yeah! She's much, much, much, much, much, much,much,much more a candidate for Sherlock than Molly!

 

Meanwhile Molly wasn't even clever enough not to get brutally embarrassed @ a Christmas gathering. It's like girl, you work with him on consistent basis.... Really?!? REAllY!???!!! Way to play it cool. Talk about trying too hard. What's sad is that was her personal best! That ill fitted cheap/trailer park looking dress & then to top it off she put a Christmas bow in her hair. She knows Sherlock doesn't do Christmas?!?

 

And before anybody responds with clever things Molly has done, please consider there's a difference between being book smart, sensitive & sweet. Molly is all those things, but she is quite ditzy & she is not clever. If she works on it, she could become clever.

[Janie]

 

 

Irene, yes. Janine, yes. Molly, no. Mrs. Hudson, no. Some woman with a brilliant mind and dangerous ( not boring, like Molly ) personality, yes.

 

Now I've also posted before they would have to almost completely rewrite Molly's personality & her appearance to be a good match for the exquisite tastes of Sherlock. Other than that - I would never buy it - it would sicken me, because I would then know that they wrote that in for "Sherlolly's" versus keeping the integrity of the show in tact.

I'd rather see Sherlock with Molly than with Janine. Never noticed she had a brilliant mind But I still hope that Sherlock will stay alone.

 

Are you serious? Seriously. Are you serious? Janine knew she was being used & decided to have fun with it. She was playing Sherlock the entire time he thought that he was playing her. As Sherlock would say "Neat". On top of that she became wealthy as a result. I'd say she avoided getting Sherlocked!

 

Also Sherlock couldn't help but admire her a little for being clever enough to know what he was up to. And she was always so put together. So yeah! She's much, much, much, much, much, much,much,much more a candidate for Sherlock than Molly!

 

 

Yes, I'm serious. For me, Janine was, like Sherlock said, "a grasping, opportunistic, publicity-hungry tabloid whore." Definitely not in Sherlock's league. And I personally like her even less than you like Molly. 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

And besides, Janine bought Sherlock's cottage in Sussex and got rid of his bees. I wouldn't like her much either!  And she kept turning off his morphine drip.....what kind of friend is that!

 

Of course it has been hinted that they do like each other even if they verbally snip at each other and grouse even as they go out on a date together. Maybe even though she didn't dance as well as he does, he saw the potential.

[jesskayding]

And besides, Janine bought Sherlock's cottage in Sussex and got rid of his bees. I wouldn't like her much either! And she kept turning off his morphine drip.....what kind of friend is that!

 

Of course it has been hinted that they do like each other even if they verbally snip at each other and grouse even as they go out on a date together. Maybe even though she didn't dance as well as he does, he saw the potential.

 

 

Seeeeee. That's what I mean. He admires people like Janine. People who contribute to the excitement in his life on their own with no help from him. They have less than moral personalities.

[T.o.b.y]

Are you serious? Seriously. Are you serious? Janine knew she was being used & decided to have fun with it. She was playing Sherlock the entire time he thought that he was playing her. As Sherlock would say "Neat". On top of that she became wealthy as a result. I'd say she avoided getting Sherlocked!

 

Also Sherlock couldn't help but admire her a little for being clever enough to know what he was up to. And she was always so put together. So yeah! She's much, much, much, much, much, much,much,much more a candidate for Sherlock than Molly!

 

 

Yes, I'm serious. For me, Janine was, like Sherlock said, "a grasping, opportunistic, publicity-hungry tabloid whore." Definitely not in Sherlock's league. And I personally like her even less than you like Molly. 

 

 

I used to think the same thing, but somehow, Janine has wormed her way into my heart the same way as the other Sherlock characters did, and I can't find it in there to say I dislike her now. Not that I necessarily want to see her appear again, and I definitely do not think she should become Sherlock's girl friend for real. But I don't know, she's got something.

 

Of course she doesn't compare to Molly. Speaking in flowers, Molly is a wild rose while Janine is a peony (and I guess I'd call Irene a lily).

 

Tastes vary, I guess, but for the record, I like the way Molly looks and dresses very much. I don't think Sherlock is attracted to her physically at all, she doesn't seem to be his type. But that doesn't mean she isn't pretty!

 

Jess, what is it with you and Molly, by the way? You really seem to object pretty strongly to her...

 

[Slithytove]

Leaving aside the fact that Molly would have to be highly intelligent to have such an important job in a renowned institution like Bart's, it's a mistake to judge a book by its cover. Just because she has a shy manner and not much dress sense doesn't mean she can't be loyal, brave, bright and determined - the qualities which Sherlock evidently values in John.

 

She's the one who sees Sherlock's sadness - at the wedding as well as before the Fall - and the one he turns to for help. She keeps his secret for two years. She's also the only one who understands his personality well enough to realise how much he's going to struggle with his wedding speech. She has the scientific knowledge to help him in his work. In many ways, she'd be an excellent match for him (if he wasn't gay ) So she gets flustered sometimes, because she's crazy about him....Well, cut the girl some slack. Who woudn't get in a bit of a flap in the presence of Sherlock?

 

Janine as a partner for Sherlock? Nah. Shrewd and tough, with her eye on the main chance, and very worldly but no genius. Sherlock does a lousy thing, pretending to propose to her, and she manages to forgive him after she gets back at him, which shows a big heart...but Mrs Sherlock Holmes? No. She's too ordinary.

 

Irene, however, isn't ordinary at all. Very clever, very ruthless, very good-looking, doesn't care how people judge her....She's a perfect match, in many ways. And he did go halfway across the world to save her. So, could the pro domme be the one for the consulting detective?

 

Maybe. But I 'm still voting for John.....

[Carol the Dabbler]

After you made such a great case for Molly? 

 

[jesskayding]

 

 

 

 

Are you serious? Seriously. Are you serious? Janine knew she was being used & decided to have fun with it. She was playing Sherlock the entire time he thought that he was playing her. As Sherlock would say "Neat". On top of that she became wealthy as a result. I'd say she avoided getting Sherlocked!

 

Also Sherlock couldn't help but admire her a little for being clever enough to know what he was up to. And she was always so put together. So yeah! She's much, much, much, much, much, much,much,much more a candidate for Sherlock than Molly!

 

 

Yes, I'm serious. For me, Janine was, like Sherlock said, "a grasping, opportunistic, publicity-hungry tabloid whore." Definitely not in Sherlock's league. And I personally like her even less than you like Molly.

I used to think the same thing, but somehow, Janine has wormed her way into my heart the same way as the other Sherlock characters did, and I can't find it in there to say I dislike her now. Not that I necessarily want to see her appear again, and I definitely do not think she should become Sherlock's girl friend for real. But I don't know, she's got something.

 

Of course she doesn't compare to Molly. Speaking in flowers, Molly is a wild rose while Janine is a peony (and I guess I'd call Irene a lily).

 

Tastes vary, I guess, but for the record, I like the way Molly looks and dresses very much. I don't think Sherlock is attracted to her physically at all, she doesn't seem to be his type. But that doesn't mean she isn't pretty!

 

Jess, what is it with you and Molly, by the way? You really seem to object pretty strongly to her...

 

I object strongly to her & Sherlock being a couple. And yes, I'm sorry, she annoys the tar out of me. I could see if she had some insecurities, everyone does. But that woman is so weak, too weak. Ooooo she slapped Sherlock a few times. Actually when he was found in the drug den, I felt like the slapping was over the top. Is it really that acceptable for women to go around hitting men like that? I don't know, I really could do without her character in the show. I find her absolutely unnecessary...

 

Sorry everyone who finds her so endearing. Every time she comes on the scene my eyes roll & I let out a hard quick strong disappointed sigh.

[jesskayding]

Uhm, and I hate to burst everyone's bubble , but there is an article floating around on this forum somewhere, where they are planning on Janine being in season 4, They're not sure about Irene Adler.

[Arcadia]

But does Sherlock, in any of his incarnations from Victorian days to modern times, relate to your experience of human nature?

I'm not familiar enough with any of the other incarnations to say, but THIS Sherlock; yes, absolutely. His intellectual curiosity, his desire to transcend the ordinary, his rudeness, his love of the dramatic -- it's all very exaggerated, of course, but also very familiar to me. As is Lestrade's steadiness, John's decency and also his repressed anger, Molly's awkward loyalty .... I didn't mean to imply that I only like characters who resemble me. Rather, I like characters that illuminate what I understand the human condition to be. No, Moriarty's not one of those, and in fact I'm not much of a fan of his; there's not much to learn from him, except in the way he complements/contrasts Sherlock. I'm probably not explaining myself very well, sorry. It's a bit nebulous even in my own mind.

 

To take an even more extreme example, "Watership Down" was a bestseller but its readership didn't consist of rabbits...

Ah, but the rabbits didn't act like rabbits, did they? (One of my favorite books, by the way!) It wasn't realistic, they had human characteristics that the readers could relate to. That's why it works, imo. If Hazel had had the intellect of a real rabbit, it would have been a pretty dull read!

[Arcadia]

I object strongly to her & Sherlock being a couple. And yes, I'm sorry, she annoys the tar out of me. I could see if she had some insecurities, everyone does. But that woman is so weak, too weak. Ooooo she slapped Sherlock a few times. Actually when he was found in the drug den, I felt like the slapping was over the top. Is it really that acceptable for women to go around hitting men like that? I don't know, I really could do without her character in the show. I find her absolutely unnecessary...

 

Sorry everyone who finds her so endearing. Every time she comes on the scene my eyes roll & I let out a hard quick strong disappointed sigh.

Tell us what you really think, Jess!

 

I suspect so many of us like her because in a world that so often seems to value flash and brass over substance, she represents everyone who's ever been underappreciated merely because they seem ordinary. She's the underdog, and I for one will always root for the underdog!

[Slithytove]

 

But does Sherlock, in any of his incarnations from Victorian days to modern times, relate to your experience of human nature?

I'm not familiar enough with any of the other incarnations to say, but THIS Sherlock; yes, absolutely. His intellectual curiosity, his desire to transcend the ordinary, his rudeness, his love of the dramatic -- it's all very exaggerated, of course, but also very familiar to me. As is Lestrade's steadiness, John's decency and also his repressed anger, Molly's awkward loyalty .... I didn't mean to imply that I only like characters who resemble me. Rather, I like characters that illuminate what I understand the human condition to be. No, Moriarty's not one of those, and in fact I'm not much of a fan of his; there's not much to learn from him, except in the way he complements/contrasts Sherlock. I'm probably not explaining myself very well, sorry. It's a bit nebulous even in my own mind.

 

To take an even more extreme example, "Watership Down" was a bestseller but its readership didn't consist of rabbits...

Ah, but the rabbits didn't act like rabbits, did they? (One of my favorite books, by the way!) It wasn't realistic, they had human characteristics that the readers could relateU to. That's why it works, imo. If Hazel had had the intellect of a real rabbit, it would have been a pretty dull read!

Do you think rabbits would have bought the book en masse? I think most of them would have said, "I don't get it - it doesn't reflect my personal experience of bunniness at all. I don't think or feel that way." There would, however, be some who said, "I like to read about rabbit life which is new to me. What do you make of Fiver?". But probably not enough readers to make a bunny best seller.

 

 

As for Moriarty - my guess would be that, if you could look into his mind, you'd find recognisable human emotions there. No-one becomes a monster for no reason. There are feelings there, somewhere beneath the cruelty and the madness. I suspect there is a lot of pain and probably a lot of fear, and feelings of rage (and maybe loneliness), deep in Jim's psyche. Not that this excuses him being a mass murderer, but something turned him into the man he is. If you could uncover that reason, it would probably shine a very powerful light on the human condition.

[Slithytove]

 

I object strongly to her & Sherlock being a couple. And yes, I'm sorry, she annoys the tar out of me. I could see if she had some insecurities, everyone does. But that woman is so weak, too weak. Ooooo she slapped Sherlock a few times. Actually when he was found in the drug den, I felt like the slapping was over the top. Is it really that acceptable for women to go around hitting men like that? I don't know, I really could do without her character in the show. I find her absolutely unnecessary...

 

Sorry everyone who finds her so endearing. Every time she comes on the scene my eyes roll & I let out a hard quick strong disappointed sigh.

Tell us what you really think, Jess!

 

 

 

I suspect so many of us like her because in a world that so often seems to value flash and brass over substance, she represents everyone who's ever been underappreciated merely because they seem ordinary. She's the underdog, and I for one will always root for the underdog!

Well put! Molly is an example of substance over style. I dispute the idea that she's weak. If you were surrounded by heartbroken, grieving people, and you also had to pretend to mourn, wouldn't you be desperate to say, "Cheer up! He's not really dead!" Or at least to whisper it in John's ear.....But her loyalty to Sherlock holds out for the full two years. She is a rock, I'd say.

[Arcadia]

Do you think rabbits would have bought the book en masse? I think most of them would have said, "I don't get it - it doesn't reflect my personal experience of bunniness at all. I don't think or feel that way." There would, however, be some who said, "I like to read about rabbit life which is new to me. What do you make of Fiver?". But probably not enough readers to make a bunny best seller.

Exactly!

 

I met Richard Adams once. A bit impolite, actually, I had a hard time enjoying the book afterwards. Got over it, though.

 

As for Moriarty - my guess would be that, if you could look into his mind, you'd find recognisable human emotions there. No-one becomes a monster for no reason. There are feelings there, somewhere beneath the cruelty and the madness. I suspect there is a lot of pain and probably a lot of fear, and feelings of rage (and maybe loneliness), deep in Jim's psyche. Not that this excuses him being a mass murderer, but something turned him into the man he is. If you could uncover that reason, it would probably shine a very powerful light on the human condition.

I guess I feel like I get enough of that from the real world. Enough for a lifetime. Far too much. Don't wanna see some more! (Insert icon of ostrich with head in sand here.)

[Slithytove]

Really? I'd love to know exactly what's going on inside that dark little soul. No- one wakes up one morning and decides to be evil. Something makes you want to act like that. I wondered what happened to Jim.

 

I suspect that the Holmes boys had a strange and difficult childhood, but I also suspect it was a walk in the park compared to Jim's formative years.

[jesskayding]

Boooooo Molly lovers! Booooooo.

[Arcadia]

Really? I'd love to know exactly what's going on inside that dark little soul. No- one wakes up one morning and decides to be evil. Something makes you want to act like that. I wondered what happened to Jim.

 

I suspect that the Holmes boys had a strange and difficult childhood, but I also suspect it was a walk in the park compared to Jim's formative years.

I guess I figure someone like that is just so stone cold crazy it doesn't matter what happened to him, he was always going to be like that! Even worse to think that something turned him that way, though. Brrrrrr. Think I'll go cuddle a rabbit or something.

[T.o.b.y]

Well put! Molly is an example of substance over style. I dispute the idea that she's weak. If you were surrounded by heartbroken, grieving people, and you also had to pretend to mourn, wouldn't you be desperate to say, "Cheer up! He's not really dead!" Or at least to whisper it in John's ear.....But her loyalty to Sherlock holds out for the full two years. She is a rock, I'd say.

 

Yeah, I've been wondering about that. Why did Molly keep silent all that time, and not even give John a hint? And why is John not angry at her (or Mycroft!) at all?

 

Molly has much more to her than meets the eye at first. I don't think she's weak, either. I also think that while she is, for the most part, genuinely a good person, she's probably not half as angelic as she comes across. There's a touch of the "sociopath" to her as well.

 

I wonder whether there are many people besides Sherlock whom Molly really cares about.

 

[jesskayding]

I'm sorry people, I just don't like her. At least I like her more than Sally Donovan.

[T.o.b.y]

I'm sorry people, I just don't like her. At least I like her more than Sally Donovan.

 

That's okay, you don't have to like either of them. This is one of the many good things about fictional people: You can't hurt them, so you can hate them as vehemently or irrationally as you please, and you don't have to worry about doing them an injustice.

 

[Slithytove]

 

I'm sorry people, I just don't like her. At least I like her more than Sally Donovan.

 

That's okay, you don't have to like either of them. This is one of the many good things about fictional people: You can't hurt them, so you can hate them as vehemently or irrationally as you please, and you don't have to worry about doing them an injustice.

 

 

 

That's right.  I don't like Mary now and never will, but I don't feel bad about it.  And I don't like Sally either....

 

What does exasperate me is the idea that, if you dislike a character, you dislike the person playing it.  I've read some comments - not here, I think - to the effect that, if you don't like Mary, you must resent Amanda in some way or, conversely, that you have to like Mary because Amanda is lovely.  Fictional characters and actors.....they're not the same!

[jesskayding]

Here, here! Or is hear, hear?! Oh well. 

 

How about this: I'll drink to that! 

 

 

[T.o.b.y]

What does exasperate me is the idea that, if you dislike a character, you dislike the person playing it.  I've read some comments - not here, I think - to the effect that, if you don't like Mary, you must resent Amanda in some way or, conversely, that you have to like Mary because Amanda is lovely.  Fictional characters and actors.....they're not the same!

 

Oh yes. That attitude is very immature. And it's irrational, and it betrays a complete ignorance of the concept of acting.

 

For the record, I like Sally Donovan. When I saw her at the beginning of The Sign of Three, I was glad. It was like seeing an old friend.

 

I think Sally is very loyal towards Lestrade. And she's worried, and always has been worried, that Sherlock will ruin Lestrade's career and reputation.

 

Of course Sally is far from being a nice person. But I don't think she's a bad person at all. And I kind of respect her for sticking with her basic disapproval of Sherlock, even after he came back from the dead. She didn't do a volte-face like Anderson. Her reasons for disliking Sherlock are still valid, why should she change her mind?