Episode 3.2, "The Sign of Three"

[Arcadia]

I don't know why he wouldn't be available by this point. I was just wondering if you had some inside knowledge.
 
I don't know, I think I'd rather see Molly with someone her own age. Altho I suppose Greg could be young at heart. I just don't feel like Molly's had a chance to live much, it'd be nice to see her with someone who's not too jaded already.

[Carol the Dabbler]

People keep pointing out the difference in their ages, but is it really all that great?  Can't say how old the actual characters are, of course, but lemme see -- Rupert Graves is currently 51, and Louise Brealey is 35.  In my opinion, a 16-year difference isn't all that significant (I have dated people roughly that much older than me, as well as people that much younger).

 

[Boton]

People keep pointing out the difference in their ages, but is it really all that great?  Can't say how old the actual characters are, of course, but lemme see -- Rupert Graves is currently 51, and Louise Brealey is 35.  In my opinion, a 16-year difference isn't all that significant (I have dated people roughly that much older than me, as well as people that much younger).

 

Certainly by that age, 16 years doesn't have to be that much.  I sort of assume that Graves is playing a slightly younger Lestrade than his chronological age, just based on the fact that BC, MF, and Gatiss are all playing 2-3 years younger than they actually are (if I'm doing my math right).  But I think Molly has to be at least 35 to be in the position she is now, so that could potentially trim things down a little more.

 

Regardless, I like the Lestrade/Molly pairing.  I don't exactly ship them, but I think Lestrade is a better match for Molly than Sherlock would ever be, if even he were interested in dating.  Lestrade is smart, funny, attractive, and he and Molly could spend a lot of wonderful cozy evenings at home shaking their heads at their friend Sherlock.  

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Don't know if Molly would ever go for Lestrade as she said her type was a psycho/sociopath. Not that it couldn't work otherwise.

[Carol the Dabbler]

She did say "maybe it's just my type" -- note the "maybe" -- so maybe not.  So maybe there's hope for Greg.

 

[sittything]

I dunno, I just don't see Molly and Greg together.  I don't know if it's because we haven't seen much of them together?  If I just feel the chemistry isn't there?  It just never even crossed my mind until I saw others mention it.

[Arcadia]

I wasn't thinking their physical age so much as their life experiences. About which I know NOTHING, so I should probably shut up. But I won't!! Molly just seems to me like someone who hasn't done a lot with her life yet, I think someone younger would be more likely to get her to open up to new experiences a bit. Whereas Greg seems to me to be someone who's pretty content with where he is, no outside excitement needed, thanks. Maybe not. What the heck do I know.

 

By the way, Moftiss have said somewhere that initially they were going to make John & Sherlock younger than the actors, but in the end, they just made them the same age. (Oh, THAT's what I know! )

[sittything]

Did they make them the same age?  Do we know Watson's age at all?  I thought I saw in another thread on here that Sherlock was 30 in series 1?  Which would make Benedict a few years older than Sherlock.  

 

I know Loo Brealey is 35, but her character of Molly has always seemed younger to me for some reason.  

[Arcadia]

Did they make them the same age?  Do we know Watson's age at all?  I thought I saw in another thread on here that Sherlock was 30 in series 1?  Which would make Benedict a few years older than Sherlock.  

 

I know Loo Brealey is 35, but her character of Molly has always seemed younger to me for some reason.

Well, I'd have to track down the quotes to be certain, but I'm reasonably sure it's on the commentary somewhere. The way I remember it (she says, qualifyingly), they were originally going to make Sherlock 28, but when they redid ASiP they went what the heck, why bother.

 

Yes, Molly seems younger than that to me as well.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I don't offhand recall any DVD comment about them changing their minds (would be interested if someone can find & quote it).  But how would they go about making them younger, anyhow -- lots of makeup? shoot them soft focus?  Why?  It's not like they're "too old" for the roles -- in fact, I think they're younger than most people who've played those characters (at least the well-known ones).

 

But the idea does persist that Sherlock is 27 or something, so I think they did mention that part somewhere.  And I believe that's roughly Holmes's age in Study in Scarlet.

 

I don't believe there's been any mention of their ages within the episodes -- with the possible exception of Sherlock's gravestone (link to Arwel Jones's Twitter page thanks to Caya here), which seems to show a birth date of January 6, 1977 (only about half a year after Mr. Cumberbatch's birth).  However, no one has come up with any episode screencap that shows the dates on the stone at all.

 

[Arcadia]

I think BC at least looks quite a bit younger in the unaired pilot, although again that might be due to acting choices as much as physical appearance.

 

 

[sherlockandjohn]

It occurred to me how much of an open book Sherlock seems to be in this episode compared to others. Not that we really learn much about him, we didn't already know, but his feelings are easier to read. It really does feel like the writers and producers are spelling out what John means to Sherlock.

[T.o.b.y]

Thinking about Sherlock's speech makes my head spin. I mean, it was planned long in advance, obsessively planned, and it worked out pretty well (until Sherlock got working on the Sholto case, but hey, work comes first, as always). And the theme was how he, Sherlock himself, was such an unlovable human being that only a person as great and good as John could ever be his friend. So was Sherlock's initial insecurity real or an act? Was he only pretending to make a shambles of the whole thing, just so the audience would be all the more surprised when he got to the point?

 

I don't think Sherlock is easy to read in The Sign of Three at all. For me, he's just as hard to see through as ever.

 

My impression is that Sherlock genuinely was not quite sure what exactly he wanted to say until the last minute, and that he wrote something like ten speeches, some very heartfelt, some very acerbic, some just superficial and light. And when the time came, he strung bits and pieces together until it somehow fit. At least that's the explanation I like best, so I'm just going to stick with it.

[Boton]

 

 

My impression is that Sherlock genuinely was not quite sure what exactly he wanted to say until the last minute, and that he wrote something like ten speeches, some very heartfelt, some very acerbic, some just superficial and light. And when the time came, he strung bits and pieces together until it somehow fit. At least that's the explanation I like best, so I'm just going to stick with it.

 

I like that explanation.  He certainly  had quite a stack of index cards, so I can see there being about 10 speeches in there that he was pulling from at random.  Nice idea.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I like it too.  And it certainly fits with my impression that his "deductive" prowess actually consists of a collection of random insights strung together with left-brain logic.

 

[sittything]

I always thought he was nervous and unsure at the beginning.  Was that faked?  Please don't tell me it was faked.  I like to think his discomfort was real, that he was out of his element.

 

 

[Arcadia]

That was my take as well, he felt out of his element. And also he can't help himself, when he thinks of a sardonic comment he just goes ahead and makes it ...

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Agreed. Sherlock really had no idea how to write a speech that would express himself and be what people (not familiar with him) would expect to hear at a wedding. I think that is why he asked Lestrade for help.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

From what BC said in Q&A's about "SoT" he really was nervous. The Martin, Amanda and the others would be socializing and Benedict would be off in a corner agonizing about all the stuff he had memorize and spiel off.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Benedict had mentioned in a couple of interviews about learning 30-40/40-50 pages of dialogue (he said 2 different number ranges 1 in each interview).  That can be anywhere from 25-50% of the script depending on the script's actual length & the total # of pages that were actually for Sherlock.  So I can understand (to a point since I've never been in that situation) the nerves with having to learn that amount of lines and film it within a certain time frame.

[T.o.b.y]

it’s a male friendship and men don’t talk about being friends, and [sherlock and John] don’t, ever. They never actually say it.

 

Um - Mr Moffat?

 

 

To be fair, this is from a 2010 interview, but still. It struck me as pretty funny.

 

 

[Boton]

I think that's what makes the scene referenced above work.  Sherlock and John have grown into this really tight friendship almost without either of them realizing it.  Certainly without Sherlock realizing it.  That's what makes the scene so charming; this is definitely an outlier incident in their relationship, and Sherlock is just so wonderful, going into total catatonia over the whole thing.

 

Actually, heresy here, but TSoT is my least favorite of the season three episodes.  I seem to be making a couple of "no emoting" posts this morning, and I promise I'm not really that cold.  But for some reason, TSoT is a bit too emotional for me; it seems like the amount of emotion the two men express throughout the thing is just a little out of their normal characters, and I find that uncomfortable from male protagonists.  But since I started viewing the episode as part of HLV, I've liked it better.  As a stand-alone, I still have problems.  

[Arcadia]

I find I tend to view TSo3 as Act II of a 3 act play ... not a conscious decision on my part, that's just how S3 feels to me, 3 parts of one big story. S2 is a bit like that too, except Hounds functions more as a stand-alone story, imo. S1 is definitely 3 distinct episodes.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I'll have to try thinking of S3 in that way and see if it helps things to jell in my mind.  But I suspect I'd have to think of it as Acts 1-3 of a 4-act play.

 

[Arcadia]

Act 4 being whatever you can think up to resolve 1-3?