Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[Pseudonym]

I'm always fascinated by those sudden smile drops he does. I wonder if I do it when I'm not thinking because when I finish talking to someone but they can still see me, I have to consciously let my smile fade slowly rather than just... stopping. 

[J.P.]

If it was a normal person, this smile drop would tell me the person was faking the shown affection. Which would still work in both cases.

[Pseudonym]

Most of the time if I'm talking to someone I'm not actually friends with I'm faking being amiable... 

[Boton]

If it was a normal person, this smile drop would tell me the person was faking the shown affection. Which would still work in both cases.

 

I agree. 

 

I do tend to think Sherlock isn't "normal" in that he occasionally has flashes of his real emotions and then quickly tamps them down.  Now, how much of that is because of emotional scars from the whole Eurus/Redbeard thing and how much is because his intellectual side just reads very different from his emotional side, I'm not sure. 

 

I've always thought that the whole Janine in 221B scene was an odd situation in which Sherlock got to show his true emotions precisely because he told himself he was putting on an act.  "Look at me; I'm playing 'Guy Who Has a Girlfriend' now!" 

 

You will never get me to believe that he didn't enjoy having Janine get in that bath with him.  (If anything, I think Janine was the one faking once she figured out he's spent the night in a smack den and now she was sharing his bath water.)

[Pseudonym]

I don't know, I don't think he felt anything towards Janine in that way at all. I think he likely had some affection for her because she's quite spunky, but I don't think he felt anything for her sexually or romantically. I guess it goes back to the basic question of how we view his sexuality again. 

[Boton]

Just so.  We'll never really settle that question, but I guess we can keep having the discussion over and over again until they feed us new material.

 

That's actually something that I'm finding very disappointing about S4.  All of the loose ends were tied up sufficiently, and there were openings left for literally every possible ship and every desired outcome, and it is just kind of boring to think about now.  I'm off here in my little world with my ship and my eventual outcome, but I can see where everyone else gets justification for theirs, so it's somehow harder to get excited about trying to discuss one's own perspective.

[Pseudonym]

So you're a Sherlock/Janine shipper?

 

I can see your point about the ending, but at the same time it means there's nothing to get angry about either. I would have been furious if they had paired him up with Irene for example. 

[Boton]

So you're a Sherlock/Janine shipper?

 

I can see your point about the ending, but at the same time it means there's nothing to get angry about either. I would have been furious if they had paired him up with Irene for example. 

 

I'm a Sherlock/Janine endgame shipper.  I don't want to see them actually together for quite a while, but, kind of going along with what is hinted at in the script above, I would like to see Sherlock's retirement to Sussex involve moving in with Janine and having a relationship in the later years of their lives.  In the meantime, I like to imagine that they see each other once in a while and sort of slowly fall for one another, but nothing dramatic or angsty.

 

Yes, I agree with your point about nothing to get angry about.  Actually, I admit that if you go back in my posts on this forum, I know I said more than once that I wanted the show to end on a note that would allow everyone to imagine their favorite outcome, and that's exactly what I got.  I just didn't count on feeling disappointed by this, and I can't quite identify why I feel that way.

[J.P.]

The real Final Problem might be us finding why we feel about S4 the way we feel. :P

[Pseudonym]

It's just such a shame, a series that brilliant should have been given a suitably brilliant send off. :(

[gerry]

It's interesting. I didn't know Janine/Sherlock shippers existed!

[gerry]

It's just such a shame, a series that brilliant should have been given a suitably brilliant send off. :(

ditto times a million.

[Pseudonym]

All shippers exist

 

I've read some great fics with Janine as a friend but not as a love interest, can you recommend any Boton? Though I'm not big on retirementlock if that's your bag. 

 

I don't know if it's the same with Janine/Sherlock but something that always weirds me out a bit with Molly/Sherlock stories are that the second he touches her she seems to get pregnant. Sherlock is just that virile apparently. 

[Boton]

All shippers exist

 

I've read some great fics with Janine as a friend but not as a love interest, can you recommend any Boton? Though I'm not big on retirementlock if that's your bag. 

 

I don't know if it's the same with Janine/Sherlock but something that always weirds me out a bit with Molly/Sherlock stories are that the second he touches her she seems to get pregnant. Sherlock is just that virile apparently. 

 

Well, here are a few Sherlock/Janine I like:

 

Early in the Morning, by Peach Sodapop (totally SFW)

http://archiveofourown.org/works/8506270

 

Affirm Me, by erebones (NSFW)

http://archiveofourown.org/works/1165640

 

Naked with the Bees, by emungere (NSFW)

http://archiveofourown.org/works/2435963

 

And, if I may be so bold, this one from me, which is totally SFW, might be my favorite story I've written:

Setting Sail, by Boton

http://archiveofourown.org/works/3117992

 

The thing is, I've almost never read a Sherlock/Janine where Janine gets pregnant.  You're right, the Sherlolly portion of the fandom must think Molly is extremely fertile (or Sherlock is), because that woman falls pregnant at the drop of a hat!

Edited May 23, 2017 by Carol the Dabbler
repaired link to second story

[Carol the Dabbler]

Thanks for the story links, Boton.  I'm something of a Sherlock/Janine shipper myself (as well as Molly/Lestrade).

 

... something that I'm finding very disappointing about S4.  All of the loose ends were tied up sufficiently, and there were openings left for literally every possible ship and every desired outcome, and it is just kind of boring to think about now.  I'm off here in my little world with my ship and my eventual outcome, but I can see where everyone else gets justification for theirs, so it's somehow harder to get excited about trying to discuss one's own perspective.

 

... I know I said more than once that I wanted the show to end on a note that would allow everyone to imagine their favorite outcome, and that's exactly what I got.  I just didn't count on feeling disappointed by this, and I can't quite identify why I feel that way.

 

In my case at least, I don't think it's so much the open possibilities that I find disappointing, as it is the lack of any specific cliffhanger.  I mean, when was the interest in the show at its peak?  Answer: between Reichenbach and Empty Hearse, with the biggest cliffhanger of them all.  They've never had what I would call a traditional cliffhanger, where you really don't know what happened till next time.  It's always been more of a HOW did it happen, which I greatly prefer.  But in any case, it gives the audience something specific to ponder between installments.  The fandom currently lacks a focus.

[gerry]

But wasn't that intentional because they don't currently plan on doing more shows so there was no point to a cliffhanger?

[Boton]

I think you're right, gerry.  Either they don't currently plan on more or they don't know what's going to happen and didn't want to risk an ACD-style 10 year cliffhanger.  But Carol is right; without the cliffhanger, there's less reason to keep obsessively watching the show or writing fan fiction trying to figure out how parts fit together.

 

One thing I miss is that there aren't any scenes in S4 that I really want to expand upon, either in fan fiction or in my imagination.  I could turn HLV into a 20-hour extravaganza of additional information I'd like to see filmed.  The bit that Carol was talking about, between TRF and TEH, could generate fan fiction for years.  What are we supposed to imagine out of S4 -- what Eurus did in her spiffy glass cell for 30 years?

[Pseudonym]

Thanks for the recs Boton, I'm a bit Johnlocked out at the moment so could do with something different once I finish my current story. :D

 

Something I wanted to read, I don't know if any of these have it, is a story where the Janine/Sherlock relationship was one hundred percent real, John is convinced it's for a case and won't believe it's real until it finally gets to a point there's no way he can deny it anymore. Plus I'd love to see Sherlock's reaction to finding Janine knocked out if he actually was in love with her. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

But wasn't that intentional because they don't currently plan on doing more shows so there was no point to a cliffhanger?

 

Yes, I believe you're right, and when they announced that intention I thought it made perfect sense.  But now I think I'd rather risk having a cliffhanger go unresolved than deal with what we currently have.  Blah.

 

Can anyone think of a cliffhanger that could be appended to HLV and would be an improvement over not having it?

[gerry]

But now I think I'd rather risk having a cliffhanger go unresolved than deal with what we currently have. Blah.

I don't know about that. That reminds me too much of shows that do a cliffhanger and get canceled before the next season so you never know what happens. I really hate when that happens. It seems people here are much more comfortable leaving things ambiguous. I'm ok with ambiguity but not for series finales. Series finales should spell everything out and resolve all stories.

[Arcadia]

It's just such a shame, a series that brilliant should have been given a suitably brilliant send off. :(

 

In the history of serial fiction, though, has there ever been such a send off? I tend to suspect not, but of course I haven't seen or read everything. But I have a feeling it's just human nature to carp about endings, especially if we've had time to build up in our own minds what we think a satisfactory ending would be. And each of us have our own ideas what a perfect ending would look like, so someone's always going to be disappointed, methinks.

 

 

Can anyone think of a cliffhanger that could be appended to HLV and would be an improvement over not having it?

 

I assume you mean TFP rather than HLV? No, not me, but I suck at endings, that's why I don't try to write fiction. I can only think of middles.

 

Interesting what you say about TRF ... because I thought TGG was the only "real" cliffhanger they had. I was amazed they had the audacity to perpetrate that (lack of) ending! Especially since they had no idea if they'd be back.

 

TRF on the other hand ... it ended on an emotional low, yes ... but when Sherlock showed up at the graveyard, I for one relaxed immediately. He was okay, he'd saved his friends, everything would sort itself out. His survival was a puzzle, but not in doubt. I was wondering how he did it, yes, but to me that's different than being left in suspense. Of course, this was before I knew there was a whole industry dedicated to speculation about The Fall. If I'd been in the fandom before seeing S2, I might have felt different.

 

Same with HLV ... if it had ended with Sherlock's plane disappearing into the blue, bearing him to certain death, I think that suspense would have been almost too much for me to bear. (I wonder if they ever thought of doing that? Ugh. Glad they chose not to.)  But after they showed him coming back, I felt like they'd arrived at a decent conclusion ... if the show had never returned, I would have imagined (and did, at times when I thought S4 would never happen) Sherlock merrily chasing after Moriarty gifs for the rest of his days. Sort of like the ending of TFP, actually ... I'm content thinking he and John will just go on indefinitely solving crimes.

 

That doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see the show come back. I miss it. But it doesn't bother me that I don't have a specific mystery to ponder on in the meantime. In fact, it's rather a relief ... I feel like the gap between S3 and S4 went on far too long, to the point where anticipation was giving way to exhaustion, and giving the Moriarty gif far too much significance. (As it turned out, it didn't mean anything at all; they barely addressed it.) So at this point, I think I'm happier simply waiting to see what they come up with next, rather than second guessing it. For now, at least.

 

Tbh, I still don't feel like I've really grasped all S4 has to offer. Although lately it seems all we do is bash the scripts (and not just the S4 ones either). Makes me wonder why we watch the show. :P

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Tbh, I still don't feel like I've really grasped all S4 has to offer. Although lately it seems all we do is bash the scripts (and not just the S4 ones either). Makes me wonder why we watch the show. :P

Because we all belong at Happy Valley Lunatic Asylum in the same hall as you ;)

[Carol the Dabbler]

The reason I mentioned TRF as the most significant cliffhanger is that it was the only one that really grabbed my attention. It was a puzzle, and I love puzzles.

 

TGG, on the other hand, felt like a sort of token exciting moment. It was obvious that Sherlock and John would come through unscathed, but "how" did not seem particularly deducible, so it was not a puzzle, it was simply a "wait and see" situation, which is also fine (though not as much fun).

 

Right, I meant TFP. I always seem to get those two titles confused unless I actually think about it.

[Arcadia]

Right, and now I realize I misread your post anyway; you said biggest cliffhanger, not only. So ignore me, it's just the shock talking. :p

[J.P.]

I'm very much with Arcadia on the end of HLV. It would make a decent open ending for me. And the S1-3 arch looks better to me. But maybe it's only because I've seen them all together.