Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[Slithytove]

Some aspects of Mary - the quick mind, the determination, the risk taking - do make her the female version of Sherlock. Maybe that is why John "I'm not gay" Watson is so drawn to her, because she has the qualities he loves in his friend but belongs to the gender which attracts him (or finds socially acceptable, depending on whether or not you feel he is repressing a physical attraction to Sherlock.). In other ways, I think she is wholly unlike Sherlock, but that is because I think she is a genuine psychopath whereas Sherlock would just like to believe he is one.

 

The relationship between Mary and Sherlock is interesting because they do seem, at times, to be exchanging notes on John. Sherlock is almost like a girl pal for Mary, helping her plan her wedding, discussing how much weight they think her husband has gained.... Rather an unexpected side of the great detective. It will be interesting to see which way the writers take this relationship, but it depends on what they do with Mary's character. I hope it is something wholly unpredictable.

[Caya]

So, no, I do not think it is real and I am not taking it personally. I like to consider subtext and to argue passionately for a particular interpretation, insofar as it can be justified by close reference to the text. Good writing (aided, of course, by superb acting) tackles moral issues and invites us to debate them within the context of the work. In the recent series, there have been many moral questions.... Can murder ever be justified? To whom do we owe the greatest loyalty? Is forgiveness always noble? Can love be a motive for evil? Yes, Sherlock is an enjoyable piece of entertainment and I love its energy, its imagination and its humour, but I also like to discuss all the nuances of plot and character. That is why I am on this forum. To me, it is fun.

 

 

This is honestly the first time on this forum I wish I could like a post twice (except for Fox's beautiful fanfiction, of course).

 

May I ask what you've written or would that be making you less anonymous round here than you're comfortable with? If so, I understand.

 

[wildwoodflower]

 

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You seem to be taking this quite personally, almost as if your beloved had turned out to be a killer for hire and shot your best friend. I'm assuming that hasn't actually happened on account of well, real life often having less melodrama than fictional life. As Shelock himself pointed out (in words written for him by a writer) - these are the stories of two men and their frankly ridiculous adventures. Mary is one of those adventures.

Er, no.... That's the way I approach a work of fiction, and how I would hope my own work is read. (I have published commercial fiction, which is the unattractive name for stories in mass circulation magazines, and am lucky enough to have some small - tiny - experience of writing for tv and radio. Add to that an educational background in English Literature, and you can see where I am coming from.). I pay the writers the courtesy of taking their work seriously, even when it is comedy, because I know the effort that goes into creating well-rounded characters as compared to two-dimensional cardboard cut-outs. I also find it exciting when they manage to come up with a narrative arc that challenges us and stimulates debate, instead of going down the cliched route where every plot development is signalled long before it arrives.(Think of Downton Abbey as a prime example of the latter.)

 

So, no, I do not think it is real and I am not taking it personally. I like to consider subtext and to argue passionately for a particular interpretation, insofar as it can be justified by close reference to the text. Good writing (aided, of course, by superb acting) tackles moral issues and invites us to debate them within the context of the work. In the recent series, there have been many moral questions.... Can murder ever be justified? To whom do we owe the greatest loyalty? Is forgiveness always noble? Can love be a motive for evil? Yes, Sherlock is an enjoyable piece of entertainment and I love its energy, its imagination and its humour, but I also like to discuss all the nuances of plot and character. That is why I am on this forum. To me, it is fun.

 

With all due respect, I think your comment is quite patronising and somewhat offensive.

 

 

Apologies. I did the very thing I promised I wouldn't do on while mercury is in retrograde:-) 

 

I am also a pro, paid, published writer of fiction (mostly speculative and SF) and I do understand the compulsion to do thorough, deep readings of text  - that's much of fandom isn't it?  My interests and focus are usually on the feminst perspectives, but that is super hard to reconcile with a show like this where the lead's only legitimate romantic interest was a dominatrix blackmailing the British government, and whose mother apparently stopped being a theoretical mathematician in order to raise children (because your brain stops working when you have children? I know it feels that way sometimes but...).  Sometimes I just have to put on the blinders or I can't enjoy it anymore. After too many years hanging around various fandoms, I don't find it fun to be outraged all the time. It's only exhausting. And fandom, quite often, is already completely exhausting. So best advice is for me not to read anything anyone has said on the subject.

 

But on the other hand, I'd be interested to know more about your own "commercial" work if you'd care to share links or anything (in a private message if you'd rather) to those of us who are interested.

 

(Edited a gazillion times because my keyboard is very sticky today).

 

 

[Janine M. Adler]

Hey, I'm new to this forum. I've been reading the posts for a while. I've recently read an article about How Sherlock survived despite being flat lined. Being a doctor myself I found it logical and coordinating with the events shown in the episode about how he survived. I like to share this link with you. 

 

http://wellingtongoose.tumblr.com/post/75415111199/how-sherlock-survived-his-heart-stopping-a-medical

[Undead Medic]

Hello Janine Adler, to Sherlock Forum. Thanks for sharing that link, I'm sure many members will find it interesting.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Thank you, Janine Adler! And welcome to the Sherlock Forum. A very informative and vital first post!

[wildwoodflower]

Hey, I'm new to this forum. I've been reading the posts for a while. I've recently read an article about How Sherlock survived despite being flat lined. Being a doctor myself I found it logical and coordinating with the events shown in the episode about how he survived. I like to share this link with you. 

 

http://wellingtongoose.tumblr.com/post/75415111199/how-sherlock-survived-his-heart-stopping-a-medical

 

That was brilliant. Thanks for sharing. And I'm always amused by how quickly our fictional heros recover from catrostrophic physical injuries. (In Elementary sherlock is shot in the shoulder and a few weeks later is doing those crazy clapping pushups). Also at how quickly detectives on telly manage to get results from DNA testing.

 

[Janine M. Adler]

thank you guys for welcoming me. 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

You're welcome! And so aren't we all!

[Slithytove]

Caya and Wildwoodflower, sadly you wouldn't be familiar with my name or work, because I was one of the largely unknown crew of (mostly, but not exclusively, female) writers who wrote commercial women's fiction for mass circulation magazines in the UK. I got into this area because I met an agent, on a writing course, who specialised in this market and she invited me to try writing this type of fiction. It is just about the only market for short stories which pays reasonably well. (As compared to small press mags, where you are lucky to get more than a complementary copy of the magazine.) I published quite a bit of work, and had fun at the agency's Xmas parties, but got out around the time that a lot of people left. This was mainly because the market for magazine fiction was dwindling rapidly, as several leading magazines cut out fiction entirely and the market for ghost-written "true life" stories exploded. It had always been hard to make a living - I couldn't do it - and suddenly it became much harder. However, I had also reached the point that I wasn't really enjoying it. There were a lot of restrictions, ie. unsuitable subject matter, and coming up with plot twists for 1,000 to 1,500 word stories that couldn't be too off-beat, too down-beat, too nasty (I like creating really nasty characters).... Well, I couldn't do it forever.

 

I was also lucky enough to have a radio play broadcast (an interesting experience) and was asked to adapt it for tv (not so interesting), and it was weird seeing actors playing people who had only existed in my head. That was years ago, though, and I just happened to be there at the right time, when the subject of India was hot, for some reason, and I had a play based on my own mixed marriage and my Indian in-laws. Bit of a fluke, really.

 

So I'm threatening to write The Novel when I retire...and, in the meantime, I have a huge amount of respect for Moffatt et al, for creating characters who are so completely developed, so alive, and yet leave us so much room for imaginative engagement. Take Sherlock, for instance. We know so much about him - how he acts, how he lives, how others perceive him and, to some extent, how he thinks and feels - and yet he is still essentially unknowable, as everyone is. To create someone so much larger than life and yet so real..... I am truly envious.

[Caya]

Thanks for the answer, Slithytove! It's a pity - I really dig your way with words, and I would've loved to read some of your work. Well maybe I'll get my chance when you've finished The Novel .

[Slithytove]

Thanks, Caya. It really will get finished one day, even though I am currently spending too much time thinking about Moftiss's characters and not enough about my own.......

[miltk]

 

As much as I love some of the epic scenes in this episode, it is pretty darn sad. Sad, sad, sad. Except for the first 25 minutes, of course, and some occasional bright moments. Not a complaint, well, not entirely, but more just an observation. I feel sad through most of it.

 

For me, the whole series 3 felt sad. There was a lot of comedy on the surface of things, but underneath, there was this continual feeling that The Fall really was "the end of an era" and things will never, ever be the same again. I felt that Sherlock summed it all up when he said: "The game is never over, John. But there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end."

 

... and that should go straight in my favorite quotes collection, too.

 

 

the problem with writers is they always want to take the plot into a new direction. yeah, that's okay if a series has been around for years and it starts repeating itself, but here we are at only the 9th episode. and sh can't keep dealing with super villains all the time because you end up trying to outdo yourself.  personally i like the quieter episodes because the characters are what's driving this series. hell if they're going the route of the super villain, they may as well do a movie where sh saves the world, and close the book on this thing!

 

the seasons have ended with,,,jw in danger > sh is dead > sh is exiled to certain doom. they're painting themselves into a corner.

 

the writers should starting thinking about how they want to end the series, sopranos or breaking bad - will the characters continue on or will there be some finality for everyone involved,,,and start to fill in the episodes leading to it's end. didn't they say something about 2 or 3 more years?

[Pamela]

Yep.  I'd sure like to see some more meaty stuff like Study in Pink, Hounds of Baskerville and even Scandal in Belgravia.  Cases that involve deductions and work and fun without the huge drama.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

,and start to fill in the episodes leading to it's end. didn't they say something about 2 or 3 more years?

 

  Oh no. Benedict Cumberbatch and Martin Freeman have both said they're in for the long haul. As long as Moffat and Gatiss want to write and produce Sherlock episodes. And they still have tons of material to plumb before they run out. And Moffat said in an interview he would give up Doctor Who before he would stop working on "Sherlock".

 

  Besides, Sherlock can't retire now. Janine bought his cottage on the Sussex Downs and got rid of the bees!

[Pamela]

I misunderstood.  Sorry.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

No need to be sorry. There is so much out there it is hard to keep it all straight.

[miltk]

/>

 

 

,and start to fill in the episodes leading to it's end. didn't they say something about 2 or 3 more years?

Oh no. Benedict Cumberbatch and Martin Freeman have both said they're in for the long haul. As long as Moffat and Gatiss want to write and produce Sherlock episodes. And they still have tons of material to plumb before they run out. And Moffat said in an interview he would give up Doctor Who before he would stop working on "Sherlock".

 

Besides, Sherlock can't retire now. Janine bought his cottage on the Sussex Downs and got rid of the bees!

then if they're in it for the long haul, they certainly can't up the ante all the time with earth shattering crimes to solve.

[Pamela]

^^^ So totally agree!  They've got to get back to the basics.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Agreed!  I'd like to quote John's request from "Reichenbach" -- "Get yourself a little case this week?"  The canon Holmes rarely dealt with earth-shattering situations, generally just quiet little puzzles that were important only to those immediately involved.  I guess the Sholto case comes the closest to that of anything in Series 3, and even it involves two attempted murders.

 

[Pamela]

Okay, we're all in agreement.  So somebody write to Moffatt and Gatiss, okay?

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Absolutely. The there were only two big cases in all of Season 3, the bombing threat and Magnussen. So there is plenty of cases, especially the smaller ones they can work through. And they are working on six episodes even as we speak. So it seems they're not worried about running out of ideas and quality is their big focus, not quantity. If they can produce a show like Doctor Who for 50 years, why would they be any less successful with a wildly successful show like Sherlock?

[miltk]

Agreed!  I'd like to quote John's request from "Reichenbach" -- "Get yourself a little case this week?"  The canon Holmes rarely dealt with earth-shattering situations, generally just quiet little puzzles that were important only to those immediately involved.  I guess the Sholto case comes the closest to that of anything in Series 3, and even it involves two attempted murders.

 

 

yes, that was a beautiful episode. the smaller the case the more detailed focus on character relationships. the bigger cases swallow up the characters in favor of  pizzazz. balancing big themes with detailed personal characterizations is not easy in any format, but especially not in an 1.5 hr  tv episode. everybody here talks about sh + molly or sh + dw or sh getting irate when they hurt mrs hudson....

 

let james bond handle the world. i mean REALLY,,,, exiling sh to a suicide mission in the middle east?  WHAT??%$@!!*}

[miltk]

Okay, we're all in agreement.  So somebody write to Moffatt and Gatiss, okay?

 

 

okay, so who here has moffat's ear....................carol?

[Carol the Dabbler]

Don't I wish!

 

Probably just as well that I don't, though, come to think of it.      (Note: the yellow guy is Moffat.)