Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[Slithytove]

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I don't think they'll pull another "Mycroft" on us. No, I truly think Sherlock was too preoccupied with finding a spot in this London that had moved on in his absence to subject Mary to more suspicion. She offered kindness and security when she told him that she'd help with John. Once again, "caring is not an advantage." He was blinded by it, and exhausted, I think. Sherlock is overwhelmed by social cues and emotional situations far less similiar to the mine field he encountered in TEH. (not excusing his behavior, just an approach)

 

It's kind of funny, don't you think?

It's been 30 pages of the same questions, excuses, arguments over and over again. I am sick of it. I think many of us are sick of it. But we cannot let go no matter how much it wears us out.

Maybe that's what they were after. They knew that cliffhangers get boring, and so they did not keep us on our toes. Instead they gave us something else, something that hits home emotionally. That makes us greedy for some sort of resolution in season four.

Some want Mary gone and they want to see John back at 221b with all of their heart.

Some want a plausible explanation to soothe the fandom.

Some want Mary to make it up to Sherlock, possibly by sacrificing herself.

 

It's funny. No matter how much I disliked John's decision, I am burning to see season four. Because I cannot believe that this is it.

I dunno about you, but maybe you feel the same? That this cannot be "it"?

And that's why we are orbiting around the topic like fools. Sentimental, caring fools

Really, all the interest, the controversy, the speculation and the passionately held views are just confirmation that we're dealing with some damn good fiction here. After all, people are still debating whether Mr Rochester was a romantic hero or a monster who locked his unfortunate wife in the attic - or what happened to Edwin Drood - or was Heathcliff a murderer..... Not that I'm comparing Moftiss to Dickens or the Brontes, but it's the job of fiction to create imaginary people whose lives fascinate us much more than the lives of a lot of the real people we know. I'd say Sherlock is remarkably successful in that way and I don't find these discussions boring, however circular they may be. We will never resolve these arguments, we will have to wait for S4 for that, but it's fun to wonder.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

I'd say Sherlock is remarkably successful in that way and I don't find these discussions boring, however circular they may be. We will never resolve these arguments, we will have to wait for S4 for that, but it's fun to wonder.

 

  Absolutely and Sherlock has been doing this to the world's mystery readers for around 160 years which is remarkable because it never does get boring, ever. He is just as alive and vital now as Sherlock Holmes ever was, thanks to Gatiss, Moffat, Vertue, Benedic, Martin and the whole darn crew, And that's saying a lot for something and someone that even his creator came to hate. So very glad that Doyle's attempt at murdering Holmes was a dismal fail.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I'm really glad that we can all express our varying opinions and theories in a respectful and more-or-less friendly fashion.  (Apparently some other forums aren't quite so civilized!)

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

I'm really glad that we can all express our varying opinions and theories in a respectful and more-or-less friendly fashion.  (Apparently some other forums aren't quite so civilized!)

 

  Amen to that.

[T.o.b.y]

It's kind of funny, don't you think?

It's been 30 pages of the same questions, excuses, arguments over and over again. I am sick of it. I think many of us are sick of it. But we cannot let go no matter how much it wears us out.

Maybe that's what they were after. They knew that cliffhangers get boring, and so they did not keep us on our toes. Instead they gave us something else, something that hits home emotionally. That makes us greedy for some sort of resolution in season four. 

Some want Mary gone and they want to see John back at 221b with all of their heart.

Some want a plausible explanation to soothe the fandom.

Some want Mary to make it up to Sherlock, possibly by sacrificing herself. 

 

It's funny. No matter how much I disliked John's decision, I am burning to see season four. Because I cannot believe that this is it. 

I dunno about you, but maybe you feel the same? That this cannot be "it"?

And that's why we are orbiting around the topic like fools. Sentimental, caring fools

 

Oh, I'm sorry this is getting on your nerves... Not intended, I assure you. I'm afraid I actually enjoy endless discussions - if they are about something I find interesting and the other people involved are friendly, of course.

 

I am afraid I don't believe series 4 will bring much of a resolution. After all, series 3 didn't answer most of the questions raised by The Reichenbach Fall - if anything, it made what happens in that episode even harder to understand (for me, at least).

 

About wanting John back at Baker St... I don't know. I really don't know. On the one hand, of course I'd like that because the setting worked so well and it's true to the original. But some other things would be true to the original as well that I devoutly hope Moffat and Gatiss will never let into "Sherlock", so the latter isn't really a good argument. On the other hand, after excessive use of my newest DVDs, I have kind of fallen in love with Mary. I was mostly bothered by what happened concerning her in His Last Vow because I felt that she was being treated unfairly, both by the script and by the characters in the story (for "characters", read John, mostly. I have no complaint to make about Sherlock. I never have yet and I don't think I ever will... not for long ). I think I'd be equally happy with John and Mary remaining married, impossibly happy in spite of the past (fiction makes anything possible) or with a divorce and John back at Baker St. I just do not want to see Mary die and John going through all that again. I don't care how canon that is.

 

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

I have kind of fallen in love with Mary. I was mostly bothered by what happened concerning her in His Last Vow because I felt that she was being treated unfairly, both by the script and by the characters in the story

 

  But at least you have made some sense of this by finding the link with what happened with her through "The Gloria Scott" which really is a huge thing. It will be interesting to see how Moffat and Gatiss goes about this in Season 4.

[T.o.b.y]

  But at least you have made some sense of this by finding the link with what happened with her through "The Gloria Scott" which really is a huge thing. It will be interesting to see how Moffat and Gatiss goes about this in Season 4.

 

Who knows whether the writers really had that story in mind when writing Mary. But if they did, and if she really "is" Trevor senior, then oh dear.

Because he was finally hunted down and blackmailed by a witness of his past and he finally died of a stroke due to the strain (yeah, I know emotional stress has not been proven to cause strokes, but tell that to Mr Doyle...). Oh, and the villain's name was Mr Hudson. I know I've said that a million times, but I still think it's so funny.

 

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Oh well, he was an old man by then, we all have to step out of this world some how, one way is as good as another.

[T.o.b.y]

That does not seem to have been his son's opinion...

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Of course not. Parents are supposed to be invincible, immortal. Their not supposed to die.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I am afraid I don't believe series 4 will bring much of a resolution. After all, series 3 didn't answer most of the questions raised by The Reichenbach Fall - if anything, it made what happens in that episode even harder to understand (for me, at least).

Oh, shush!     I've been trying so hard not to think about that!

 

I was mostly bothered by what happened concerning her in His Last Vow because I felt that she was being treated unfairly, both by the script and by the characters in the story....

 

Yes!  That's an excellent point.  It seems that a lot of people do like Mary -- at least in the first two episodes --- but don't like what she did in the third.  I guess I'm in that camp myself, but, like you, I find it hard to blame Mary herself.  Sort of like Jessica Rabbit, maybe she's not bad, she's just written that way.  So I can't help feeling there's more to it than we've seen so far.

 

I guess that's one way of saying that the Sherlock characters (including Mary) are so lifelike that we can take them seriously and care about them as people.

 

[T.o.b.y]

I guess that's one way of saying that the Sherlock characters (including Mary) are so lifelike that we can take them seriously and care about them as people.

 

You can say that again.

 

What I mean by Mary not being treated fairly is that I feel I wasn't offered anything to understand what things were like from her point of view. I can't imagine she just decided that being a professional killer was a really cool career move and then a few years later got bored with that and thought she'd amuse herself by taking on a dead woman's name, marrying a nice doctor and shooting his best friend in the chest. And it seems to me that by ignoring her past, John also refuses to even consider that she might have had a few reasons for what she did, that just maybe it wasn't all entirely her choice and she could be entitled to some compassion. I think the writers meant him to come across as really magnanimous and noble, but it just doesn't work for me.

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

What I mean by Mary not being treated fairly is that I feel I wasn't offered anything to understand what things were like from her point of view. .... And it seems to me that by ignoring her past, John also refuses to even consider that she might have had a few reasons for what she did, that just maybe it wasn't all entirely her choice and she could be entitled to some compassion. I think the writers meant him to come across as really magnanimous and noble, but it just doesn't work for me.

 

 Well, I thought he came across as very earnest and caring (thanks to Martin Freeman's performance), but his total disinterest in her past was hard to believe and, as you say, quite possibly amounted to selling her short.  I would have expected him to at least ask her (as I certainly would in his shoes) something like, "Please help me to understand why" (as he basically did with Sherlock in "Empty Hearse").  It's hard to be truly empathetic if you're totally in the dark.

 

Hopefully we'll get our DVDs from the UK tomorrow (the projected delivery date was two days ago, but they didn't come again today).  I'm still hoping that watching this with subtitles will shed a ray or two of light on the matter.  (At least we'll get the PBS broadcast on Sunday.)

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

In "Empty Hearse," Sherlock says that Mycroft knew all along that he was alive.  When Mary points out that of course Sherlock needed a confidant, John silences her with a glare -- all he cares about is Sherlock's explanation (not Mary's), which makes sense, because it's Sherlock's story.  (Actually, I suspect that he's annoyed because he thinks Mary is "taking Sherlock's side" -- but let's stick with logic for now, OK?)

 

In "Last Vow," Sherlock conjectures extensively about Mary's history and motivations.  John listens to him and even asks questions, but does not ask for Mary's own account or show any interest in it.

 

So in each case, John seems far more interested in Sherlock's explanation than in Mary's -- regardless of whose story it logically is.  Can anyone offer a plausible explanation?

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Are you talking about when they get back to Baker Street after the scene in the fake house? If I am right in that conjecture, could it be because he trusts Sherlock. He knows how easily Sherlock can "read" people, even though in Mary's case he ignored it because he wanted to like her.  and right now, John trusts nothing that comes out of Mary's mouth? He heard her in that empty house when she thought he was Sherlock. He saw the gun. He's heard enough from her, doesn't trust her, doesn't want her in that setting room, not as his wife, especially not as a client. I'm sure someone will come up with a more detailed and logical explaination, but that's my take on it anyway.

[Janie]

Yes, I think that, too. He's always trusted Sherlock's opinion so when Sherlock says he trusts Mary, John somehow finds it easier to believe him than if she said it herself.

[Slithytove]

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I guess that's one way of saying that the Sherlock characters (including Mary) are so lifelike that we can take them seriously and care about them as people.

You can say that again.

 

What I mean by Mary not being treated fairly is that I feel I wasn't offered anything to understand what things were like from her point of view. I can't imagine she just decided that being a professional killer was a really cool career move and then a few years later got bored with that and thought she'd amuse herself by taking on a dead woman's name, marrying a nice doctor and shooting his best friend in the chest. And it seems to me that by ignoring her past, John also refuses to even consider that she might have had a few reasons for what she did, that just maybe it wasn't all entirely her choice and she could be entitled to some compassion. I think the writers meant him to come across as really magnanimous and noble, but it just doesn't work for me.

If she is a psychopath, which is the way I read her, the decisions you list here are coherent because they fit her psychological make-up. Psychopaths like risks and excitement, like to live on the edge, and don't feel empathy, so professional killer would be the ideal job. In fact, I would think that the main problem would be that it must be a difficult job to get into..... Also, psychopaths are convinced about their own superiority, so she would relish the challenge of taking on a totally new identity. As for her relationship with John, she would protect it whilst it was useful to her.

 

A psychopath could be pleasant and welcoming to their husband's best friend and then shoot him in cold blood when he got in the way. I think one of the creepiest scenes is where she spends Xmas with her victim's family, chatting cheerfully with the trusting old couple whose son she recently tried to murder. Moriarty was evil but at least he didn't maim people and then turn up at their mum and dad's house for Xmas dinner.

 

So maybe the writers are actually showing us what is really going on with Mary.... Nothing but a psychopath's all-consuming egotism. (Not that I expect this to be borne out in S4. I expect it to go back to domestic bliss.). I wouldn't have a problem with Mary staying in the series as Mrs Psychopath. Just don't want John to be Mr Psychopath.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Just don't want John to be Mr Psychopath.

That may be the part of this episode that bothers me the most, the continuing insistence that John is abnormally attracted to danger and therefore to dangerous people.

 

As I've said before, and as still makes sense to me, I think he's primarily attracted to situations where he can be useful, where he can do something meaningful -- and those situations are often dangerous.

 

Saying that he's attracted to danger per se is (to my mind) about like saying that someone enjoys being a mother because she's attracted to smelly diapers.

 

[sherlockandjohn]

In "Empty Hearse," Sherlock says that Mycroft knew all along that he was alive.  When Mary points out that of course Sherlock needed a confidant, John silences her with a glare -- all he cares about is Sherlock's explanation (not Mary's), which makes sense, because it's Sherlock's story.  (Actually, I suspect that he's annoyed because he thinks Mary is "taking Sherlock's side" -- but let's stick with logic for now, OK?)

 

In "Last Vow," Sherlock conjectures extensively about Mary's history and motivations.  John listens to him and even asks questions, but does not ask for Mary's own account or show any interest in it.

 

So in each case, John seems far more interested in Sherlock's explanation than in Mary's -- regardless of whose story it logically is.  Can anyone offer a plausible explanation?

 

I only interpreted that Empty Hearse scene as John being annoyed with Mary for pointing out something in Sherlock's favor. But it would be interesting if others have different takes on it.

 

I would also say that John, during the confrontation at Baker Street, doesn't trust Mary at all, and though he gets angry with Sherlock, he is also listening to him in the midst of his anger. Although Sherlock is pointing out some harsh truths about John's attraction to danger, and it's definitely not what John wants to hear at this moment, John knows deep down that Sherlock is right. He doesn't argue with him about this. So Sherlock is, arguably, the voice of reason. Furthermore, Sherlock is acting out of concern for others. Mary has been acting mostly out of concern for herself.

[sherlockandjohn]

After my 7th (I think) viewing of HLV, more observations:

 

It is well established, through several situations, that John misses going on cases with Sherlock. When John asks Sherlock about Magnussen ("It's for a case, you said?"), Sherlock seems to be ignoring him, giving short answers, or none at all. And this is what I noticed just now: John looks down at his hands as he then asks, "What sort of case?" It is so adorable! Like he's a kid who wants candy but is hesitant to come out and ask for it. He's practically begging Sherlock to ask him along. It's funny that a couple of hours later he gets all offended when Sherlock takes it for granted that he is coming along!

 

Of course Sherlock knew exactly which buttons to push!

"Too big and dangerous for any sane individual to get involved in."

"You trying to put me off?"

"God, no. I'm trying to recruit you."

To which they both smirk knowingly.

 

Another little detail: When Sherlock and John are headed up to Magnussen's office, and Sherlock asks him what will happen if he tries to use the security card, John replies: "You're taken to a small room somewhere, your head kicked in." At which point, the Sherlock from the "could-be" scenario is being dragged off, but looks over his shoulder with a disapproving look at John, while the real-life Sherlock is telling John off (sort of) for being so "colorful". So hilarious

 

On a completely different note, that confrontation scene in Baker Street is amazing. It's painful, and raw, and real. Superb writing and acting! I feel so much for John here, and I get angry with both Sherlock and Mary myself, yet I also feel Sherlock's pain, and I don't mean physically. He's had to tell John about Mary, and now he's witnessing his best friend suffer cruelly. He understands both John and Mary in all this.

 

Finally, the score for this episode is unbelieavable, in particular when 1) Sherlock struggles his way back to life, 2) the confrontation in Baker Street takes place, and 3) Sherlock flies away. During that last scene, the music has an air of finality, which really enhances the emotions.

[T.o.b.y]

 

Just don't want John to be Mr Psychopath.

That may be the part of this episode that bothers me the most, the continuing insistence that John is abnormally attracted to danger and therefore to dangerous people.

 

But... that insinuation has been around since episode 1. Of course, it was Mycroft's, the same man who proclaimed Sherlock Holmes stupid, so I probably shouldn't attach too much importance to his analysis of other people.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

Of course, it was Mycroft's, the same man who proclaimed Sherlock Holmes stupid, so I probably shouldn't attach too much importance to his analysis of other people.

 

  Absolutely not, I mean really. This is the same man who was protecting a real slime ball like CAM....not a real good advert for trusting when it comes to reading people.

[Carol the Dabbler]

But... that insinuation has been around since episode 1. Of course, it was Mycroft's, the same man who proclaimed Sherlock Holmes stupid, so I probably shouldn't attach too much importance to his analysis of other people.

 

Yes, I know the insinuation has been around from the beginning, and it certainly could be inferred from the evidence.  But it's my feeling that my interpretation is just as tenable.

 

I've gone into that in a bit more detail here (in agreement with a couple of people who said John "needs to feel needed"):

 

... His therapist thinks he's haunted by the war, Mycroft counters that he misses it -- I suspect they're both right. The sadness on John's face when he first sees the pink lady lying dead on the floor shows that he has not become hardened to death, so yes, the carnage of war was disturbing to him. On the other hand, that was one place where he could make a real difference every day.

 

[i believe] ...  this is also why John is attracted to Sherlock -- Sherlock needs him. John responds to Sherlock's "might be dangerous" text not because he craves danger, but because he suspects that Sherlock lacks a healthy fear of danger, and so is (rightly!) concerned for his safety.

 

If (and note that I say "if") John is unwittingly attracted to Mary's dangerous side, maybe he feels that she also needs him. (Some people take in stray kittens, John takes in stray sociopaths?)

[Caya]

(Some people take in stray kittens, John takes in stray sociopaths?)

 

[Sherlock_luvr]

A psychopath could be pleasant and welcoming to their husband's best friend and then shoot him in cold blood when he got in the way. I think one of the creepiest scenes is where she spends Xmas with her victim's family, chatting cheerfully with the trusting old couple whose son she recently tried to murder. Moriarty was evil but at least he didn't maim people and then turn up at their mum and dad's house for Xmas dinner.

 

 

I'm hoping Mummy finds out who 'put a bullet in her boy' because I want to see her turn 'absolutely monsterous'.

I do still have a hard time reconsiling the Holmes parent's normality in my brain with Mycroft and Sherlock being so emotionally distant and seemingly (Sherlock more than Mycroft) scarred.