Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[Carol the Dabbler]

... All theories are equally likely, which is the beauty in it. Everybody can choose their favorite idea. And maybe we'll get the truth in season four, or maybe not. They like keeping us on our toes. Best way to do that: Don't give proof. They're great at that.

 

*sigh*  I'm starting to wonder if we might all be better off ignoring everything after "Reichenbach" (or "Sign of Three," take your pick) and writing our own stories after that.

 

Of course, it wouldn't be nearly as interesting.^*

 

 

 

 

 

^*as in the ancient Chinese curse, "May you live in interesting times."

 

 

[Zain]

 

*sigh*  I'm starting to wonder if we might all be better off ignoring everything after "Reichenbach" (or "Sign of Three," take your pick) and writing our own stories after that.

 

 

 

Of course, it wouldn't be nearly as interesting.^*

 

 

 

 

 

^*as in the ancient Chinese curse, "May you live in interesting times."

 

 

Oh, don't put your money on that

I've read plenty great stories, all by courtesy of fans like us. There's a brilliant one set after TRF that explains it perfectly but in a way it would make the writers blush how easy their solution is.

Ever read As a Matter of Fact by OpalJade? That's conspiracy at its finest. Never figured out if the author is brilliant or really has got some issues. I favor the former, though.

[sherlockandjohn]

 

Copying&pasting this from tumblr (source) cause all I could think was yes! when I read it: (formatting in progress, bear with me)

 

thescienceofjohnlock:

#sherlock#mary just cannot win with me anymore#she will never reach that be like that deserve that#this hiatus feels like looking behind the mask that is mary#and with every single day I dislike what I see more and more#nothing she did matches up#it’s - like someone said: me me me#i dont believe a single word she says#be it that she loves him or the tears in front of the fireplace#she doesnt deserve John#bring it s4 - fix it or bring her down (dudeufugly’s tag, because I agree with thescienceofjohnlock)

   ughbenedict:

   leaving dudeufugly’s tags because yeah

      songofages:

      i let my reputation and career fall apart for that man. i let people i despised humiliate me for that man. i spent two years completely alone for that man. i survived tortures because the thought of meeting him again kept me sane. i ran into fire without hesitatation for that man. i backed away for that man’s happiness. i came back to life for that man. and now i’m standing here, bleeding internally, trying to help a woman who almost killed me because she is the one john chose and i wouldn’t dare to argue with his choice because his happiness is the most important thing to me.

         ughbenedict:

         bitch don’t talk to me about love. I jumped off a building for that man.

            ok but sherlock’s face after mary says “there is nothing in this world i would not to to stop that happening”

           

            this is a face of a man who actually did everything for john watson and still isn’t able to stop “that” happening: stop john leaving him

            happening, stop john not seeing his devotion happening, stop john being in love with somebody else happening

 

eta: given up on the formatting, sorry!

 

 

Perhaps the above is not quite correct. Sherlock jumped off a building to stop Moriarty, and although John was threatened, Mycroft stopped his assasin. So I think the above is overly romanticising Sherlock, but I understand. I tend to do the same. His love for John is, after all, very real and very heartwarming.

 

What I think the above moment says is simply that Sherlock was never in a million years going to keep the truth from John, so he gives Mary a pointed look, just to emphasise that.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I'm not in agreement with what "thescienceofjohnlock" posted because:

 

1) The very name is an indicator that no matter who John was paired with, they were going to get the same treatment to a major bashing.

 

 2) I for one do not believe that the fandom has any right to make demands on the writers and producers of any show.

 

 3) The developments are discussable as these threads show. Interesting and lively. But to take it so seriously that we can actually believe that our feelings are to be taken so seriously and into account in future episodes. Not a chance....nor should they be.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I'm in basic agreement with sherlockandjohn -- although the quote from "thescienceofjohnlock" is not literally true, there is nevertheless a good deal of truth in it. I don't believe that Sherlock has romantic feelings for John, but their friendship is obviously very powerful. So I think of that quote as sort of poetry.
 

*sigh*  I'm starting to wonder if we might all be better off ignoring everything after "Reichenbach" (or "Sign of Three," take your pick) and writing our own stories after that.
 
Of course, it wouldn't be nearly as interesting (as in the ancient Chinese curse, "May you live in interesting times").

 
Oh, don't put your money on that
I've read plenty great stories, all by courtesy of fans like us....

 

I see that, once again, I have failed to express my sarcasm convincingly. I didn't mean to imply that fans can't / don't write great stories. I have certainly read some that would make wonderful episodes.

But I have yet to read any that disturb me quite the way Steven Moffat's stories can. 

 

 

[T.o.b.y]

But I have yet to read any that disturb me quite the way Steven Moffat's stories can. 

 

Well, all in all, I have been quite pleasantly disturbed by "Sherlock" so far (and I have to admit, I've never seen any of Moffat's other work). While I still am a bit disappointed that Mary's "big secret" wasn't more interesting or clever or original, I am relieved that it at least wasn't a stupid infidelity story à la "she had another guy and the baby isn't John's" or something dumb along those lines.

 

I'm beginning to think the "big reveal" about Mary isn't the fact that she once killed people for a living, anyway. The point seems to be rather that John never "moved on" at all, he only thought / wished he had. He believed he could finally adjust to a "normal" life and love a "normal" person and be a regular guy and it seemed so convincing, him and Mary the nice suburban couple with the crazy friend they take a bit of care of. But tadaa, Mary is just like Sherlock and the crazy friend ends up taking care of them and their marriage. Poor John will never move on from the war he got used to and he can't "blame" all the craziness in his life on Sherlock, after all.

 

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

I'm beginning to think the "big reveal" about Mary isn't the fact that she once killed people for a living, anyway. The point seems to be rather that John never "moved on" at all, he only thought / wished he had. He believed he could finally adjust to a "normal" life and love a "normal" person and be a regular guy and it seemed so convincing, him and Mary the nice suburban couple with the crazy friend they take a bit of care of. But tadaa, Mary is just like Sherlock and the crazy friend ends up taking care of them and their marriage. Poor John will never move on from the war he got used to and he can't "blame" all the craziness in his life on Sherlock, after all.

You may well have a point there. I assume you're attributing the situation to John's "adrenaline habit," though, whereas I would see it more this way:

 

John doesn't treat people like Sherlock as though they were freaks, he respects them as individuals. (This may be due to his army-doctor background, or perhaps he's just always been an unprejudiced person.) People like Sherlock are so accustomed to being treated as "different" that they greatly appreciate someone like John who just treats them like people, so they are drawn to him.

 

Or perhaps it's a bit of both. Same general result, in any case.

[T.o.b.y]

 

I'm beginning to think the "big reveal" about Mary isn't the fact that she once killed people for a living, anyway. The point seems to be rather that John never "moved on" at all, he only thought / wished he had. He believed he could finally adjust to a "normal" life and love a "normal" person and be a regular guy and it seemed so convincing, him and Mary the nice suburban couple with the crazy friend they take a bit of care of. But tadaa, Mary is just like Sherlock and the crazy friend ends up taking care of them and their marriage. Poor John will never move on from the war he got used to and he can't "blame" all the craziness in his life on Sherlock, after all.

You may well have a point there. I assume you're attributing the situation to John's "adrenaline habit," though, whereas I would see it more this way:

 

John doesn't treat people like Sherlock as though they were freaks, he respects them as individuals. (This may be due to his army-doctor background, or perhaps he's just always been an unprejudiced person.) People like Sherlock are so accustomed to being treated as "different" that they greatly appreciate someone like John who just treats them like people, so they are drawn to him.

 

Or perhaps it's a bit of both. Same general result, in any case.

 

 

Mhm. Probably. I should think there was more than an "adrenaline habit" at work, though. I think John among truly "normal" people would be a bit like Mycroft among his "goldfish". Unable to truly relate to them because they wouldn't even begin to understand all that he has been through and how it shaped him as a person. And he couldn't bring his mind to take the trivialities of their lives seriously enough. A bit like Sherlock himself, I guess.

 

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

True enough.  When you're used to patching up hand-grenade injuries on a daily basis, treating more mundane ailments might not scratch the old "I want to feel useful" itch.

 

[Zain]

Mh, haven't seen this discussed yet, so here I go:

 

http://mille-petali.tumblr.com/post/74103798002/who-called-the-ambulance

 

So, food for thought?

The first meta essays are turning up. Second best part of the hiatus for me. Not that there's much to enjoy (anticipation doesn't set in that early for me, I fear).

 

We've questioned that first ambulance call but I don't think we ever attributed it to anybody else.

I do like the fact that the theory holds up in canon due to the screenshot evidence.

[Pamela]

I will definitely be checking that out on the next view.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

An interesting point and theory for sure.

[Pamela]

Yes, and I checked it out, and I really can see it. When Mary turns to Sherlock, Magnussen does indeed turn to his left and reach down. And in later scenes it is clear that his phone is on the floor to his left. In one scene, it is in shadows, but it can be seen. In other flashbacks, it is lit better. Also, in Sherlock's theory of Mary calling the ambulance, she reaches down onto the floor and picks up this very same phone.

 

Why, oh why, are they doing this to us?

[aely]

If you go here (Chapter 7 of "Let's Play Murder") you will notice that the thing with Magnussen and the phone is brought up there too.

 

Hmmm.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

It is quite clear that CAM is doing something...calling someone? I can go with that. But just for the sake of discussion, earlier in the thread it was debated that if Mary called first, why did the dispatcher simply tell John that that an ambulance had already been sent to that address?

 

 Some concluded that she tried to but John was to upset to give her the chance, so that goes the same for this scenario as well.  But just to throw this out, in the same vein, if Magnussen sees John going for his phone, why didn't Magnussen simply tell John: don't bother, I've already called?  And since he didn't.....why not?

[Carol the Dabbler]

Oh, very interesting!  I had already noticed that Magnussen wasn't focused on Mary and/or Sherlock, the way I would have expected, but never got that interpretation of his behavior.  Will definitely have to watch with that in mind.

 

Assuming that Moftiss are playing fair (and they usually do, sort of), and assuming that the call really was made at about that time (which is still an open question, as far as I'm concerned), it had to have been made by either A] one of the people we know was there, or B] someone whose presence can be inferred (e.g., from a reflection that no one's noticed yet).  Laying aside the latter possibility pending further data, I believe that leaves Magnussen, Sherlock, Mary, John, Janine, and the guard.

 

I think we can rule out that last three.  John could have made the call, but that would have involved him being sneaky, and I don't believe that's what we're seeing when he arrives later.  John was last seen tending Janine, who was out cold at the time, so presumably not her.  And I seriously doubt that John would have been foolish enough to turn his back on that guard, unconscious or not.

 

So that leaves Magnussen, Sherlock, and Mary.  I don't see how Sherlock could have made the call, unless we didn't see what really happened, or unless he phoned before entering the room.  So that leaves Mary and Magnussen.  At this point, I'm willing to believe either.

 

Assuming that it really was Magnussen, then I don't think we were supposed to notice that -- meaning that it's going to be a big reveal later on -- and presumably not by Magnussen -- assuming that he's permanently dead.  (But we always have to make allowances for Moftiss's brand of non-Cartesian logic.)

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

... if Magnussen sees John going for his phone, why didn't Magnussen simply tell John: don't bother, I've already called?  And since he didn't.....why not?

Another good question. OK, maybe John didn't give him a chance either? When he's in doctor mode, he's pretty focused, so maybe he was making the call before Magnussen noticed, and even if Magnussen tried to tell him then, John was too focused on the call to hear him.

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Possible for sure. So many scenarios.....

[Zain]

 

 

Assuming that it really was Magnussen, then I don't think we were supposed to notice that -- meaning that it's going to be a big reveal later on -- and presumably not by Magnussen -- assuming that he's permanently dead.  (But we always have to make allowances for Moftiss's brand of non-Cartesian logic.)

 

 

That'd be an interesting theme for season 4, wouldn't it?

What if John found out? I mean, I doubt it would make much difference to Sherlock in the long run. 

 

And it's a bit ironic, isn't it?

Assuming it was Magnussen - Sherlock killed the man that saved his life. It's rather bizarre... could be Moffat's thing.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

Assuming it was Magnussen - Sherlock killed the man that saved his life. It's rather bizarre... could be Moffat's thing.

 

  The same thought occurred to me. It would really would be kind of cruel if Moffat did write it that way. Not quite poetic.

[Zain]

 

 

Assuming it was Magnussen - Sherlock killed the man that saved his life. It's rather bizarre... could be Moffat's thing.

 

  The same thought occurred to me. It would really would be kind of cruel if Moffat did write it that way. Not quite poetic.

 

 

I can see where you're coming from.

 

I am really cheerful, though. It's a bit of a sign that things could turn out the way I've wished since I first watched HLV. Makes me feel better about season four. It's more of an interesting puzzle now than a gloomy thought in my mind.

And no, it's not quite poetic justice. But maybe dramatic irony of some sorts? Since Magnussen would be aware of his role in Sherlock's survival.

 

 

It is quite clear that CAM is doing something...calling someone? I can go with that. But just for the sake of discussion, earlier in the thread it was debated that if Mary called first, why did the dispatcher simply tell John that that an ambulance had already been sent to that address?

 

 

 

 

Yeah, that puzzled me the first time around, and here it does, too.

Some have also asked why nobody was aware of a "female caller." The calls are recorded, after all.

 

Assuming it was Magnussen, I see two possibilities.

After Mary left, he woke up, called help, and lost consciousness again. The service might have thought the first and the second male voice to belong to the same person. I find that a bit unlikely but well.

Then there's the possibility that he made the call but that he couldn't answer the operator when asked which service he requires. After all Mary would have noticed. The gunshot could have been heard by the operator. The location is transmitted electronically. Later then they believed John to be the person who first called but wasn't able to talk.

 

Maybe that makes a bit more sense. Dunno. I bet there are other scenarios which work just as well or even better.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

Yeah, that puzzled me the first time around, and here it does, too.

Some have also asked why nobody was aware of a "female caller." The calls are recorded, after all.

 

  It's clear that between the time Sherlock bolted from the hospital and the reveal to John in the "Empty House" that Sherlock had been doing some research on Mary. He knew about the still birthed Mary Morstan. Maybe he also checked the ambulance records of the night he was shot and that's how he knew who made the call?

[Pamela]

Then there's the possibility that he made the call but that he couldn't answer the operator when asked which service he requires. After all Mary would have noticed. The gunshot could have been heard by the operator.

 

This is the theory that sounds good to me.

 

By the way, I tried to use the quote button and there was no place to for me to type underneath it. Anybody have an idea what could have happened?

[Zain]

 

 

Yeah, that puzzled me the first time around, and here it does, too.

Some have also asked why nobody was aware of a "female caller." The calls are recorded, after all.

 

  It's clear that between the time Sherlock bolted from the hospital and the reveal to John in the "Empty House" that Sherlock had been doing some research on Mary. He knew about the still birthed Mary Morstan. Maybe he also checked the ambulance records of the night he was shot and that's how he knew who made the call?

 

 

I am not that familiar with the British emergency services. So please correct me if I am spouting nonsense...

 

Okay, he also checked the ambulance records of the night he was shot.

Let's walk this through.

As far as I know, every conversation is being recorded. So if he by some miracle got into the system to check the records, he'd also go through the recorded files.

1: Mary called the ambulance and gave away the location. He then would know for certain that it was her. No need to experiment with the ambulance.

2: Mary called the ambulance but remained silent. Possible. But this would have happened after the gunshot, so she must have done something else to make the operator suspicious enough to send a car.

3: Magnussen called the ambulance but remained silent. The gunshot then rattled the operator enough to send a car.

 

2 and 3 definitely are possibilities. It's interesting how Sherlock completely overlooks the possibility that Magnussen could have called the ambulance. Either he knows better than us, or we are being misled by the writers.

The problem I see, though, is that if we question Mary calling the ambulance, Sherlock's entire deduction falls apart. The argument the fandom has been having, "is that shot surgery" becomes redundant, then, as well as Mary's motives.

 

Coud turn everything over. I quite like that prospect. 

If it's a red herring, I think I'd be really disappointed. Now I begin to have certain expectations...  don't know if that's a good thing.

 

Pamela, sorry. No clue. Sounds weird, though. Did you try again?

[Pamela]

Pamela, sorry. No clue. Sounds weird, though. Did you try again?

 

Zain: Yep, just did, still happening. (Just copied/pasted the above)

 

Back to the discussion: Isn't it possible that Mary did call, not knowing, of course, that Magnusson already had, and therefore Sherlock's deduction is intact?