Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[Arcadia]

...He just tends to be ruder to normal people, maybe because he knows they will forgive him or maybe because he has a very low boredom threshold.... However, he also seems to have a particular grudge against CAM which isn't fully explained - are we supposed to assume that he classifies himself amongst the "different" people who are preyed on by the likes of CAM?

Yes, I think the boredom thing is meant to explain a LOT. And I've often wondered the same thing about his reaction to CAM, it seemed rather personal even before he knew Mary was under threat.

 

I do think there is something masochistic about Sherlock's attitude towards those who hurt him - Jim, Irene and Mary in particular, though he does seem to like Janine better when she gets back at him with her kiss-and-tell stories - compared to his rather arrogant dominance over people like Molly and Lestrade, who defer to him. However, I realise that this will not be a popular interpretation. It isn't a quality present in ACD's Holmes but my personal opinion is that Sherlock has a strange reaction to people who do him harm.

I hadn't quite thought about it that way before, but yeah, I see it. It all points to a rather damaged personality, really. But somehow I don't think the writers would agree, I suspect they think it's all in fun.

 

... consistency isn't a hallmark of this show. One glaring example is Sherlock's acceptance of coincidence in THoB and his rejection of it in TSoT... I think we are probably trying to make sense of personality traits which the writers haven't really worked out themselves.

I'm afraid you're right. I love the emotional arc of this series, and I'm fine with it's slightly "alternate universe" ambience, but sometimes the lack of internal logic gets to me. I wish they'd hire a continuity editor. (I bet they'd get plenty of volunteers!)

[by the sea]

 

Well, I don't see any major dissimilarity. But to be honest, I think Mycroft resembles his parents somewhat more than Sherlock does!

 

I wonder whether Benedict Cumberbatch would more obviously resemble his parents without the "Sherlock" hair dye? (Now trying to recall what color Mum and Dad Holmes's hair was....)

 

 

LOL !   I wonder what Mr. C. would think of Mark Gatiss looking more like his parents that he does !  Personally, I can't imagine Mark/Mycroft ever being children ... well, maybe Mark since I don't know him.  I believe Mr. and Mrs. Holmes both had grey to white hair.  As a matter of fact, I remember seeing an episode of Foyle's War and one of the character actors, playing the role of a senior military officer was a very distinguished older gentleman with very white hair and that man was Timothy Carlton (Cumberbatch). 

 

Debbie

[Arcadia]

...(Now trying to recall what color Mum and Dad Holmes's hair was....)

White, wasn't it?

 

(oops, accidentally deleted quote code in original post.)

[Caya]

Yeah, they are both white as of Hearse. I googled a bit for older photos (they're actors, after all) but found only one where his dad's hair isn't already showing touches of gray, and his mum sports hair ranging from platinum blonde to black (again, actors).

 

  

[T.o.b.y]

I like the idea of the inclusion of Sherlock's parents ... particularly as they're played by Mr. C's real-life parents ... does anybody notice a family resemblance ? 

 

I do...

 

 

Love that photo!

 

And note the little detail: Mr Holmes is now wearing his glasses on a string around his neck!

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

Yeah, they are both white as of Hearse. I googled a bit for older photos (they're actors, after all) but found only one where his dad's hair isn't already showing touches of gray, and his mum sports hair ranging from platinum blonde to black (again, actors).

 

 

    Ben sure resembles his father in this picture.

[Arcadia]

Maybe I'm not clear on my own meaning....but he does have a dark side....and he knows it. He doesn't try to deny it, run from it, or even hide it.

No, he wouldn't. I think many people who have what they call "a dark side" embrace it, they think it's what makes them unique, gives them their power. It's like some actors preferring to play villians because "they're more interesting."

[Arcadia]

... the boys smoking out on the walkway as if they were naughty teenagers.  It's an interesting little change of pace.   

 

Debbie

And baby brother Sherlock trying to shift the blame onto Mycroft ... I love that bit.

[by the sea]

 

 

Yeah, they are both white as of Hearse. I googled a bit for older photos (they're actors, after all) but found only one where his dad's hair isn't already showing touches of gray, and his mum sports hair ranging from platinum blonde to black (again, actors).

 

 

    Ben sure resembles his father in this picture.

 

 

I agree ... he absolutely does !

 

Debbie

[Carol the Dabbler]

 

 

 
Love that photo!
 
And note the little detail: Mr Holmes is now wearing his glasses on a string around his neck!

 

I think Sherlock takes more after Mum and Mycroft takes more after Dad.  Thanks for posting that, T.o.b.y -- I was too lazy to go hunting for it.  And thanks for pointing out Dad's new string for his glasses!

 

 

... I love the emotional arc of this series, and I'm fine with it's slightly "alternate universe" ambience, but sometimes the lack of internal logic gets to me. I wish they'd hire a continuity editor. (I bet they'd get plenty of volunteers!)

 

On the other hand, how many real-life people are 100% consistent?  And/or perhaps Sherlock is consistent, according to some set of parameters that have not occurred to us.

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

I think many people who have what they call "a dark side" embrace it, they think it's what makes them unique, gives them their power.

 

   Many people do embrace it. But they like to hide it until they find ways to use it to get the leverage. Sherlock knows he's unique but he isn't constantly blowing his own horn. He's not out in public advertizing his brilliance.

[Arcadia]

... As for why he rarely "behaves" even though he apparently has a general idea of how -- I don't think that's necessarily due to a "personality disorder" (which the professionals seem all too eager to diagnose these days). Maybe he's just too lazy and/or doesn't see the point. After all, John and Mrs. Hudson will be nice to him (and generally give him what he wants) anyhow, so why bother?

Absolutely, I was being facetious. (Who, me!?!?) I've long since decided all the references to psychopaths and sociopaths and aspberger's are just a smoke screen, the explanation for why Sherlock is the way he is, is because it's the way he wants to be. Or thinks he wants to be. Or used to think. Oh dear, there goes Season 3 complicating things again.... 

[Arcadia]

... 

- Are Mrs Hudson, Lestrade and Molly really "normal"? ...

Good point! A resounding "no" from me! That reminds me, when I first started watching this show, I thought that was one of the overarching themes ... who the heck is normal? I'd forgotten about that.

[by the sea]

 

 

- Why did Sherlock hate Magnussen so? Yes, I think he objects to the fact that he's a bully who preys on people who are "different". Of course Sherlock knows he himself is "different", and all his friends are too. Also, Sherlock probably has a long history of being bullied as a kid, by Mycroft and others. And it is true that Magnussen isn't even particularly interesting. He's simply disgusting.

 

 

 

 

Wow !  This thread is getting way ahead of me.  I'm going to have to stop working and just stay on the forum ... much more interesting ... but pays a lot less !!  

 

This is an interesting question.  In spite of his posturing arrogance, Magnussen proves to be something of a sniveling coward when looking up the muzzle of Mary's gun ... who wouldn't, I suppose, but he didn't seem to handle it with the coolness I'd have expected.  He holds the power to destroy anybody at whim and he doesn't even have to be right or be able to prove his allegations.  As he said to John "I don't have to prove it, you moron.  I just have to print it."  So he is able to lie and get away with it if he wants to because nobody ever calls him to task.  When it goes in his newspapers, people believe it.  Then that moves right along to Sherlock and Janine.  When she sells her story to the tabloids and buys her "escape to the country", she says to Sherlock "you lied and lied".  She tells him they could have been friends except for his lies.  So ... Magnussen and Sherlock are both liars.  Why do we let Sherlock get away with it and hate Magnussen for it ?  I guess because when all is said and done, Sherlock lies for the angels and Magnussen lies for profit.  And ... Sherlock and Janine looked like they could possibly work on that friendship after all as their parting wasn't acrimonious,

 

Debbie

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

And ... Sherlock and Janine looked like they could possibly work on that friendship after all as their parting wasn't acrimonious,

 

   Most people lie....a little white lie to keep from hurting someone's feelings....by omission....by just by keeping silent.  But yeah, Sherlock and Janine seem to part pretty friendly. She does kiss him, says that they're good and even tells him that she's turned off his morphine pump. Mofftiss even hints that they might share a date night once in awhile.

[Arcadia]

I'll bet Mummy Holmes gave her boys heck over this: "You two, you can't even smile for a family photo!!"

 

And note the little detail: Mr Holmes is now wearing his glasses on a string around his neck!

Now THAT's continuity! Bravo, someone!

[Arcadia]

On the other hand, how many real-life people are 100% consistent?  And/or perhaps Sherlock is consistent, according to some set of parameters that have not occurred to us.

Ah, but it's not consistency of behavior I'm after, it's continuity in logic. If the speed of light is only 10 miles an hour in Star Trek, I'm fine with that. But if the speed of light changes from episode to episode simply to accomodate a plot twist, that's a break in continuity, and it jars. But I can't actually remember the original point that was being made (was it even mine?) so I can't give a Sherlock example right now.  :blush2: But in honor of continuity, I couldn't anyway because, y'know, I coughed my brains out last night.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

But in honor of continuity, I couldn't anyway because, y'know, I coughed my brains out last night.

 

  I find that logic can be over rated and all relevant as in.....what one person sees as perfectly logical...another person sees as totally idiotic.  But in any case, hope you're feeling better real soon.

[T.o.b.y]

I haven't noticed any big inconsistencies in Sherlock's characterization (or any of the others) - none that I couldn't explain away to my satisfaction, anyway. As for plot... well, it takes a lot to make me notice a plot hole.

[Arcadia]

Wow !  This thread is getting way ahead of me.  I'm going to have to stop working and just stay on the forum ... much more interesting ... but pays a lot less !!  

I know, I know! Every time I start to respond the "real world" interferes and I have to leave it, then when I get back I'm five posts behind again!

 

 So ... Magnussen and Sherlock are both liars.  Why do we let Sherlock get away with it and hate Magnussen for it ?

 

Debbie

 

Love makes us do strange things....

[Carol the Dabbler]

... when I first started watching this show, I thought that was one of the overarching themes ... who the heck is normal? I'd forgotten about that.

Oh, good heavens -- maybe that's why I like this show so much! (I'm serious!)

 

 

So ... Magnussen and Sherlock are both liars.  Why do we let Sherlock get away with it and hate Magnussen for it ?  I guess because when all is said and done, Sherlock lies for the angels and Magnussen lies for profit.

Profit, schmofit -- Magnussen lied to hurt people. Or he told the truth -- whichever would hurt the most. He was utter hateful slime. (Which I assume was Moffat's intention.)

 

Just for the record, Janine lied too -- did you read those tabloid headlines?

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

So ... Magnussen and Sherlock are both liars.  Why do we let Sherlock get away with it and hate Magnussen for it ?

 

  Sherlock lied yes, but he didn't do it to destroy innocent lives. Magnussen did it to anyone innocent or not....he destroyed lives just because he could. Just for the power of it.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Oops....sorry Carol, didn't mean to double post on you.....if that's the word.

[Carol the Dabbler]

No problem.  I think our posts complement each other very nicely!

 

[T.o.b.y]

Speaking of inconsistencies, I usually believe everything Sherlock says, but John Watson a romantic? Seriously? Sorry, this should go in The Sign of Three thread... but anyway. What's so romantic about John's character? That seems like a canon reference out of place (the original Dr Watson is a romantic, clearly - but John?)