Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[Carol the Dabbler]

Just noticed that the staircase he goes down and crawls back up when he is dying  is the same staircase he goes up to see the dead woman wearing pink in "A Study in Pink."

 

Is it the same? I thought it looked the same, but I couldn't think of any reason why it would be, except that it just looks neat. But on reviewing I thought maybe it was just similar .... my problem is, I can never take my eyes off Sherlock long enough to notice any details!

 

Someone posted both screen caps on here a while back, and they were similar but definitely different. I suspect the real-life explanation is that they would have loved to use the very same staircase, but the house they used for filming "Pink" has since been refurbished, so it wouldn't look nearly as similar now as the one they did use (assuming that the current residents even wanted a film crew invading their privacy).

 

[sfmpco]

The staircase would have been stored in his mind palace, as everything was, so if it isn't the original staircase, it is certainly a visual reference to it.  Love that he's got Moriarty in the mind palace chained up by the neck in a straight jacket and padded room where he absolutely cannot escape.  Moriarty says he is dead, which means that Sherlock absolutely believes that Moriarty IS dead.  You can't blow your brains out and not be dead (and the creators said that they didn't create a double fake-out suicide).

 

And speaking of the mind palace, it is interesting to me that apparently Mycroft doesn't use the technique of mind palace and is slightly disparaging about it to Sherlock.  It is also great to show Mycroft's faster intellect by having Sherlock focusing on the wrong details regarding what kind of gun shot him instead did the bullet pass through him and shattering the mirror.  Sherlock is dancing around the wrong details.  

 

Mycroft is in control of his intellectual prowess, and Sherlock is not entirely in control of his own.  Especially from the "A Study in Pink" to "His Last Vow," we can see more and more that as he gets flooded with information, he can go completely off-kilter and manic (the classic wedding reception scene) trying to sort it all out, something that Mycroft apparently doesn't suffer.  Makes me wonder if Sherlock's drug habit  wasn't partly to calm the voices in his head.

[Zain]

 

If not, what is the alternative explanation? Both he and Mycroft were too slow or too careless to realise that an assassin, under a false identity, was marrying John and getting close to Sherlock? Sherlock's knowledge of anatomy and gunshot wounds is so vague that he believes you can inflict that type of injury without a very high risk of death? He trusts, and wants John to trust, someone who lied and successfully decieved them both about her identity, and very nearly killed him without remorse? And the man whose whole life is spent bringing killers to justice believes it is all right to aid and abet a murderer to evade justice, because his best pal is in love with her?

 

 

 

I agree with your entire post, I just had to pick up on this particular paragraph.

The alternative explanation is very sad indeed. All you said, it is completely true. And it means that Sherlock deluded himself, that he let his heart rule his head. He does not want John to be sad, and that is why he is trying to much to redeem Mary in John's eyes. Even making it look like shooting him was no big deal. This is not about liking Mary. Not in my eyes. It is about John.

And the tragic thing is: John does not realize this.

[sfmpco]

 

 

If not, what is the alternative explanation? Both he and Mycroft were too slow or too careless to realise that an assassin, under a false identity, was marrying John and getting close to Sherlock? Sherlock's knowledge of anatomy and gunshot wounds is so vague that he believes you can inflict that type of injury without a very high risk of death? He trusts, and wants John to trust, someone who lied and successfully decieved them both about her identity, and very nearly killed him without remorse? And the man whose whole life is spent bringing killers to justice believes it is all right to aid and abet a murderer to evade justice, because his best pal is in love with her?

 

 

 

I agree with your entire post, I just had to pick up on this particular paragraph.

The alternative explanation is very sad indeed. All you said, it is completely true. And it means that Sherlock deluded himself, that he let his heart rule his head. He does not want John to be sad, and that is why he is trying to much to redeem Mary in John's eyes. Even making it look like shooting him was no big deal. This is not about liking Mary. Not in my eyes. It is about John.

And the tragic thing is: John does not realize this.

 

 

Sherlock likes Mary probably from the moment she gently assures him that she will bring John around about making up with Sherlock, and when she tells John in the cab that she likes Sherlock, I think it is completely genuine.  She didn't meet him under the circumstances of him doing detective stuff but under the circumstances of a very, very awkward reunion that resulted in John attacking Sherlock three times (love that whole brawling sequence).  Also, Sherlock is so focused on John's mustache that the gravity of what John is going through is totally lost on him - and Mary witnesses this child-like, socially incompetent behavior in someone she had likely been told amazing stories about.  This was Mary's first impression of him.  So although we as the audience have no clue at this point that she is hiding anything, we do feel endeared to her and her immediate liking of Sherlock.

 

When Sherlock is helping Mary with the wedding planning details, he is completely besotted with her.  There's no sexual tension towards him from her, and he responds to her as if she's the most safe and trustworthy person he knows.  So he completely relaxes his guard around her.  She's like a sister he never had, and the fact that she loves his best friend just allows him to let his walls down around her and be a little more of his true self - which means he puts the detective on the shelf while with her.  I love it that she can see through his lies and calls him out about it.  Like a mother gently scolding her child.  I think she does see him a child in some ways.  Well, that was her first impression.  Clearly she in endeared to him and he to her... and you get even further evidence of that when Sherlock comments on John's weight, John denies the figure and Sherlock says, "Mary and I think different" which implies that Sherlock and Mary probably have a little gossipy phone time... because they really like each other and are comfortable with each other.

 

And then she shoots Sherlock, and the word "liar" floats by her... she could decipher his lies, but he couldn't decipher hers.  She had never really let her guard down.  Of course, she had never planned for Sherlock to come upon her getting ready to kill CAM, and if Sherlock had never come in, no one would have ever been the wiser.  I do not believe that this invalidates the fact that she was genuinely endeared to Sherlock and he to her which is why he is so shocked to discover what she is.

 

At the end...

 

Sherlock:  "You will look after him for me, won't you?"

Mary:  "Don't worry, I'll keep him out of trouble."

Sherlock:  "That's my girl."

 

My girl.  There's ownership of a deep, caring friendship with her.  Notice that Mary hugs him.  We never see Sherlock hug anyone in any of the episodes.  He's not the hugging type and is really almost put off by it, but with Mary, he puts his right arm around her and is smiling.  She doesn't get a two-armed hug, just one, but she's the only one who has ever gotten an embrace at all.  Even John doesn't get a hug and of all people John would deserve it on what would seem a last good-bye.  So it shows that Sherlock is still very endeared to Mary despite everything.  She has his complete forgiveness.  I would venture to say that he actually loves Mary (in the most platonic way).  

 

I really don't want to explore Mary's past that much in future episodes.  It's almost enough to leave that old festering wound alone and consider the case shut with CAM's death.

 

If the series kills her off  next season (and Mary Watson did die in the books), Sherlock may be just as devastated as John.

[Janie]

 

Notice that Mary hugs him.  We never see Sherlock hug anyone in any of the episodes. 

 

 

He hugged Mrs. Hudson in ASiP

[sfmpco]

 

 

Notice that Mary hugs him.  We never see Sherlock hug anyone in any of the episodes. 

 

 

He hugged Mrs. Hudson in ASiP

 

 

True.  Darn it, but that was more of a shoulder pat and because he was standing over her and she was sitting, and then she leaned into him.  But with Mary it was a conscious decision to embrace her.

[Janie]

Well, I meant the scene when he first introduced John to Mrs. Hudson in A Study in Pink. He hugged her and then they entered 221b. 

[sfmpco]

Oh yes, that's true.  Dang it.  I think I should stop talking now.  I'm lowering the I.Q. of the whole forum.  

 

[Arcadia]

LOL!!! You're doing fine.

[T.o.b.y]

And this seems as good a time as any for the Big Reveal of my Amazing Theory ... I know you all have been breathlessly awaiting this ever since I mentioned it, uh, several posts ago.... hopefully no one's passed out from the suspense......

Okay. In that final scene with Lady Smallwood, Mycroft, and some other people, there's a bit of dialogue that's always seemed out of whack to me.

What if .... Mycroft and Lady Smallwood have colluded to save Sherlock? After all, he did get rid of Magnussen for her, even if it was too late to save her husband. So she and Mycroft work up this plan to pretend that Moriarty has come back, so Sherlock can be recalled "to duty", so to speak. The others in the room don't know of this plan; they think Mycroft is talking about sending Sherlock into exile (and as Zain pointed out, perhaps they don't know it's a suicide mission). But Lady S. knows Mycroft is really talking about keeping Sherlock in England.

 

...

 

The beauty of my little scheme is that I would get to see the Holmes boys trying to outsmart each other, and hopefully Sherlock winning and wiping that damnable smirk off Mycroft's face. YEAH.

 

Holmes against Holmes? Why not. I'd like that - but only if Sherlock wins.

 

I know that the original Holmes allowed killers to escape justice on a few occasions. I'm not sure he was right to do so but he was motivated by pity, because the killers had suffered greatly because of the actions of those they killed.

 

Here are two examples from the old stories where Holmes lets a murderer go free:

 

1.) From "Charles Augustus Milverton": "No interference upon our part could have saved the man from his fate; but as the woman poured bullet after bullet into Milverton’s shrinking body I was about to spring out, when I felt Holmes’s cold, strong grasp upon my wrist. I understood the whole argument of that firm, restraining grip—that it was no affair of ours; that justice had overtaken a villain; that we had our own duties and our own objects which were not to be lost sight of."

 

Doesn't sound like pity to me... More like a rational argument à la don't make a fool of yourself Watson, it's too late anyway and besides, this is all for the best.

 

2.) From "The Devil's Foot": “I have never loved, Watson, but if I did and if the woman I loved had met such an end, I might act even as our lawless lion-hunter has done. Who knows?"

 

This isn't just pity, I think, it's sympathy. Empathy. Holmes identifies with the murderer. By the way, this little statement has always meant a lot to me in terms of understanding Sherlock Holmes as a character and what he is "about". I think they capture that perfectly on Sherlock.

 

 

 

Sherlock likes Mary probably from the moment she gently assures him that she will bring John around about making up with Sherlock, and when she tells John in the cab that she likes Sherlock, I think it is completely genuine.  She didn't meet him under the circumstances of him doing detective stuff but under the circumstances of a very, very awkward reunion that resulted in John attacking Sherlock three times (love that whole brawling sequence).  Also, Sherlock is so focused on John's mustache that the gravity of what John is going through is totally lost on him - and Mary witnesses this child-like, socially incompetent behavior in someone she had likely been told amazing stories about.  This was Mary's first impression of him.  So although we as the audience have no clue at this point that she is hiding anything, we do feel endeared to her and her immediate liking of Sherlock.

 

When Sherlock is helping Mary with the wedding planning details, he is completely besotted with her.  There's no sexual tension towards him from her, and he responds to her as if she's the most safe and trustworthy person he knows.  So he completely relaxes his guard around her.  She's like a sister he never had, and the fact that she loves his best friend just allows him to let his walls down around her and be a little more of his true self - which means he puts the detective on the shelf while with her.  I love it that she can see through his lies and calls him out about it.  Like a mother gently scolding her child.  I think she does see him a child in some ways.  Well, that was her first impression.  Clearly she in endeared to him and he to her... and you get even further evidence of that when Sherlock comments on John's weight, John denies the figure and Sherlock says, "Mary and I think different" which implies that Sherlock and Mary probably have a little gossipy phone time... because they really like each other and are comfortable with each other.

 

And then she shoots Sherlock, and the word "liar" floats by her... she could decipher his lies, but he couldn't decipher hers.  She had never really let her guard down.  Of course, she had never planned for Sherlock to come upon her getting ready to kill CAM, and if Sherlock had never come in, no one would have ever been the wiser.  I do not believe that this invalidates the fact that she was genuinely endeared to Sherlock and he to her which is why he is so shocked to discover what she is.

 

In a way, history repeats itself with Irene and Mary where Sherlock is concerned. He thinks love is a weakness, and he got "I love you" vibes from both of them (although minus the unsettling sexual advances in Mary's case), so he underestimated them. And they both betrayed him in spite of really loving him. So love doesn't make everybody weak, it seems. Just Sherlock. Which is probably why he's so wary of it.

 

Yes, I think he loves Mary too, but to me, his attitude towards her seems more ambivalent than you describe it.

 

Oh yes, that's true.  Dang it.  I think I should stop talking now.  I'm lowering the I.Q. of the whole forum.  

 

No, no, please don't!

[Zain]

But Irene did not shoot Sherlock.

And, in the end, she admitted defeat and asked Sherlock to help her. Mary just assumes that she deserves that everybody falls over themselves to please her. And when they don't, she is enraged. "But I am pregnant." "If you love me, don’t read it in front of me", "People like Magnussen should be killed." ( Oh, yeah, because how dare he blackmail you with your wrongdoings, that certainly deserves capital punishment), "It’s what you like." (No, it definitely is not her fault at all. John likes that she is a lying murderer. So how can he act all angry...what a hypocrite.), and my favorite: 

 

MARY: So, have you read it?

JOHN: W-would you come here a moment?

MARY (shaking her head): No. Tell me. Have you?

 

Because, no, why should she have to feel like a beggar and come to him? She is not the one that wants forgiveness, right?

 

 

 

She never gets that this is not just about her. I always thought Sherlock could at times need a tubmle from his high horse. But Mary is way above that. I cannot see any humiliation in there...  she certainly is not the one that feels humiliated, she is the one that does not relinquish any control. Even when she gives John the thumbdrive, she still sets the terms. As if everything was a game to her. Maybe it is.

 

Back to Irene (to come full circle): She accepted that he would not help her. She knew she had not much redeeming points. And she was ready to accept the consequences of her actions.

[Arcadia]

And on the subject of Irene Adler.....Sherlock seems to have trusted her when he should not have done. Could the supposed misogynist actually be a bit dim where women are concerned?

Ya THINK?!?!?!??!?!?   I don't think he has a freakin' clue about women. I don't think any of the men in this show do. Gee, I wonder why....

 

 

By the way, it occurred to me that Mrs. Hudson overheard the conversation about Mary's past ... and 221B seems to be routinely bugged by one party or another. I find it hard to believe Sherlock would betray John's trust the way you describe, but maybe somebody else would.....

[sfmpco]

I doubt we will ever see Sherlock in a truly romantic situation because to do so would be to go so far out of canon that  SH fans would be screaming bloody murder.  But I do think that seeing him grow as a human being by daring to let his guard down for whatever reason is interesting.  If by HLV he was still the exact same person as he was in ASiP, he really wouldn't be as interesting.  

 

I've thought a LOT about the Molly scenario, and certainly there are tons of Youtube videos promoting that relationship (some of them very poignant, btw - check out the "Say Something"

one).  Her character has grown a lot too.  Even IF Sherlock ever dated anyone, I think that because of who he is in public and because he never knows when someone he cares about will be put into a dangerous situation, I would think he would keep any dating completely secret.  He would not be out on the town like John.  Even Mycroft has him constantly watched, so he would have to be very cloak and dagger about it, especially after those rooftop threats from Moriarty.  

 

He trusts Molly even though he knows how she feels about him, and he clearly cares about her, but care and love are different things, and he doesn't cross that line because to cross that line removes that emotional safety net he has with her.  He can't tamper with it even if he were inclined to, which he isn't.  Her crush on him doesn't make him feel unsafe, even though for her the two times he kisses her on the cheek just about rip her heart out, the second kiss being even more meaningful.  (I'm discounting the window-crashing, hair ruffling big smacker he gave her which never really happened.  Suspect that was put in just for the fans.)

 

Molly can, of course, lay into him verbally and physically like no one else (except for Irene), and he never stops her.  In fact, she gets him to apologize the first time she verbally stands up to him, and she gets a false apology when she slaps him for giving a clean urine sample when clearly he was high.  She's in his mind palace enough to help him figure out what to do and what's happening after Mary shoots him.  

 

As one who suffers from his unrequited love, Molly sees things, believes things, hopes for things, that he cannot give her.  He cannot be the man she wants or needs him to be, and when he does the big deduction in TSoT, you can see her fall hopelessly in love with him all over again, poor thing.  But that's part of the painful beauty of unrequited love - you always hope and believe in the person, and you believe that someday, somehow, they will see you.

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

So beautifully put, sfmpco.  She has grown and someday I do hope she finds someone who can and will make her happy enough to move past Sherlock.  Lestrade, Lestrade.....pleasepleaseplease.

[Arcadia]

 

 

If not, what is the alternative explanation? Both he and Mycroft were too slow or too careless to realise that an assassin, under a false identity, was marrying John and getting close to Sherlock? Sherlock's knowledge of anatomy and gunshot wounds is so vague that he believes you can inflict that type of injury without a very high risk of death? He trusts, and wants John to trust, someone who lied and successfully decieved them both about her identity, and very nearly killed him without remorse? And the man whose whole life is spent bringing killers to justice believes it is all right to aid and abet a murderer to evade justice, because his best pal is in love with her?

 

 

I agree with your entire post, I just had to pick up on this particular paragraph.

The alternative explanation is very sad indeed. All you said, it is completely true. And it means that Sherlock deluded himself, that he let his heart rule his head. He does not want John to be sad, and that is why he is trying to much to redeem Mary in John's eyes. Even making it look like shooting him was no big deal. This is not about liking Mary. Not in my eyes. It is about John.

And the tragic thing is: John does not realize this.

 

Or it's possible that Sherlock is aware of those things you mention, Slithytove, and STILL decides to give Mary a break. As I'm sure you realize, because it is, indeed, about John. And about Sherlock's heart.

 

I felt from the start that S3 was about what happens when Sherlock lets himself care. I fall into the group of people who think this is a good thing, that he can't become a "good man" until he learns that some emotions have innate value too. But Moftiss are clever (darn them!) -- they've also shown us the flip side; what can go wrong when he, as you say, Zain, lets his heart rule his head. He becomes more like the rest of us; he's more liable to make mistakes.

 

But y'know, from mistakes comes wisdom. I don't think this particular plot line was necessary, but in order for Sherlock to grow as a person he does need to make some mistakes; mistakes with consequences. I'm probably wrong! ... but I hope that's one thing we see come out of this ... a slightly humbler but also wiser Sherlock. Perhaps even one who starts to have an inkling about women... oh never mind, that really is too much to ask.

 

Anyway, the main reason I wanted to respond was because of your remark, Zain: "the tragic thing is: John does not realize this."  That resonates with me; I was making a similar point (but for different reasons) elsewhere. It will indeed be sad if John doesn't realize Sherlock's feelings. But I'm not sure, yet -- after CAM was shot, we haven't been treated to the inner thoughts of one Dr. John H. Watson. He's suddenly become the Enigmatic One. Interesting ... I hope that's a hint that there's  more to be revealed.

[sfmpco]

Even IF Sherlock ever dated anyone, I think that because of who he is in public and because he never knows when someone he cares about will be put into a dangerous situation, I would think he would keep any dating completely secret.  He would not be out on the town like John.  Even Mycroft has him constantly watched, so he would have to be very cloak and dagger about it, especially after those rooftop threats from Moriarty.  

 

 

 

I should also add that two of the times in TEH that Sherlock came to Molly (#1 when he appeared in the mirror of her locker and #2 when he came to ask for help), he was like a phantom - just suddenly there, always startling her a little.  That's exactly how secretive he would have to be, which doesn't really make for the best dating scenario.

[Slithytove]

T.o.b.y., the instances of Holmes letting a murderer go free which you quoted are the ones I was thinking of. I've got a feeling that there may be another one, or maybe more, but I'm not sure. It's nearly fifty years since I read some of those stories, though I've certainly seen plenty of dramatisations.

 

I'm inlined to call it pity rather than empathy. Being a blackmail victim or avenging the death of a beloved girlfriend is so far outside Holmes's life experience that it must be hard for him to empathise ( even though he believes he does.). But whether it is pity or empathy, neither apply in Mary's case. He has no reason to feel for an murderer who is prepared to gun down an innocent eyewitness. (Okay, maybe after he shoots CAM, he can empathise, but until then....) He works for the Yard, for God's sake, and expects them to trust him. Why should they, when he aids and abets a murderer just because he loves her husband?

 

S3 was, of course, centred around Sherlock's growing realisation that, to quote John Donne, "no man is an island" and that he is a human being who loves and needs to be loved. (In contrast with Mycroft, who has no-one and insists that he needs no-one). His tragedy is that the person whose love he wants and needs most of all has never seemed less aware of Sherlock's feelings and less willing to show him that he is loved. (With the obvious exception of the hug at the wedding but weddings are emotionally charged events, particularly one's own!). Maybe this is because our POV is mainly Sherlock's. Maybe S4 will be more from John's POV and his behaviour will make more emotional sense....because a lot of it seemed off-kilter to me. I loved the gradual exploration of Sherlock's heart and soul but I think we lost something of John in the process.

 

Given that we have just had three episodes showing us the hard lessons Sherlock has to learn about emotions, it is nicely ironic that the series ends with Sherlock claiming that he can kill because he is a high functioning sociopath. No sociopath cares so little for their own well being that they would risk being shot by armed police or going to prison for life, all for the sake of a friend. That is why I'm inclined to see Mary as the psychopath, as she puts her own freedom above her friend's life, her husband's happiness (how much would he grieve if he lost Sherlock again, for real this time?) and even her unborn child (breaking & entering to commit murder being a rather risky business....)

[Carol the Dabbler]

It is also great to show Mycroft's faster intellect by having Sherlock focusing on the wrong details regarding what kind of gun shot him instead did the bullet pass through him and shattering the mirror.  Sherlock is dancing around the wrong details.

 

Mycroft hasn't just been shot, so it's only natural that his head would be working better than Sherlock's at that point.

 

I started to post just that much, but then I realized --

 

Where is Mycroft's helpful hint about the mirror actually coming from?  Since (as you mentioned earlier) we're apparently seeing inside Sherlock's mind palace -- isn't "Mycroft" is a manifestation of Sherlock's own intellect, merely a technique that Sherlock uses to help himself focus?

 

We're working with a lot of layers here!

 

[sfmpco]

 

It is also great to show Mycroft's faster intellect by having Sherlock focusing on the wrong details regarding what kind of gun shot him instead did the bullet pass through him and shattering the mirror.  Sherlock is dancing around the wrong details.

 

Mycroft hasn't just been shot, so it's only natural that his head would be working better than Sherlock's at that point.

 

I started to post just that much, but then I realized --

 

Where is Mycroft's helpful hint about the mirror actually coming from?  Since (as you mentioned earlier) we're apparently seeing inside Sherlock's mind palace -- isn't "Mycroft" is a manifestation of Sherlock's own intellect, merely a technique that Sherlock uses to help himself focus?

 

We're working with a lot of layers here!

 

 

Good one, very layered!  He definitely hear's Mycroft's taunting which helps keep him on his game.  Good grief, if Cumberbatch doesn't win a BAFTA for one of the 3rd series episodes, he has been robbed!!!

 

[T.o.b.y]

But whether it is pity or empathy, neither apply in Mary's case. He has no reason to feel for an murderer who is prepared to gun down an innocent eyewitness.

 

Has he not?

 

"John can’t ever know that I lied to him. It would break him and I would lose him forever – and, Sherlock, I will never let that happen."

 

Sherlock has some experience in that area himself, I'd say...

 

 

[Redbeard]

T.o.b.y., the instances of Holmes letting a murderer go free which you quoted are the ones I was thinking of. I've got a feeling that there may be another one, or maybe more, but I'm not sure.

 

Yes, there was also the Adventure of the Abbey Grange.  I just watched the Jeremy Brett version recently.  In that one a ship captain is in love with a nice woman, unfortunately she has married a mean abusive drunk.  One night the captain murders the crazy husband.  Holmes figures it all out, and then because the victim was such a vile piece of work, he offers to give the captain 24 hours head start before he notifies Scotland Yard.  The captain refuses the offer of escape because he does not want to leave the woman in a position of suspicion, nor does he want some poor innocent person to ever be suspected in his place.  This further solidifies the captain's goodness in Holmes' mind, and he tells Watson something like they will conduct their own trial on behalf of England.  He asks Watson the verdict, Watson says Not Guilty lol.  Holmes then agrees to not just the 24 hour head start, but to keep silent permanently, so that both of these good people can just get on with their lives.   

 

Can I just say I love Sherlock Holmes. 

[T.o.b.y]

 

Can I just say I love Sherlock Holmes.

 

By all means. I'll join in if you don't mind...

 

Holmes had a lot of sympathy for lovers, which is funny when you consider how he never speaks of the softer passion without "a gibe and a sneer".

 

 

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

And although to many Mary may seem to be a poor example.....isn't that what she and John are....lovers?  Maybe Mofftiss missed the mark somewhat in this plot.....but tilt one's perspective and there it is.

[Arcadia]

 

 

Can I just say I love Sherlock Holmes.

 

By all means. I'll join in if you don't mind...

 

May I join you too? Or is three a crowd?

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

If three is a crowd....what does four make?  A double two some?