Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[Arcadia]

Either that, or it's because he figured out she's his beloved older sister!   

[Slithytove]

"Brother mine" and "brother dear" aren't normal terms of endearment here. They are archaic forms of address. If anyone did say it, it would be assumed that they were trying to be funny or (much more likely) being extremely patronising. I think that when Mycroft says it, he is being condescending - when Sherlock says it, he is being sarcastic. More or less sums up their personalities, really.

 

Re. Mary, maybe she doesn't love John at all. Maybe she is an assassin working in deep cover, and maybe her most recent assignment was to get close to John. (Maybe someone suspected Sherlock was alive, and wanted to find out for certain? Or knew he was alive, and needed to get someone close to him?). It is possible she would marry him if it served her purpose. It isn't a legal marriage - you can't marry someone under a false identity - and would she care anyway, if she was an agent?

 

Sounds unlikely, but we have had fairly recent revelations here about undercover police who infiltrated protest groups in the 60s and 70s and, to maintain their cover and get information, they formed long term relationships with women in the groups and even had families with them. Maybe Mary did the same.

[Zain]

I hope that's what they had in mind when they put her into the story. It would make much more sense. And, if she truly was after Sherlock, I would not feel as betrayed as I did when she shot him. Then she would have just been seizing the chance to prematurely end the game. It certainly would answer a lot of question, like why an assassin which (according to Sherlock) is a linguist decided to work at a local GP. Or why she has enough money to have a house in the suburbs (which does not support the idea that she one day just ran).

[Carol the Dabbler]

Did Sherlock say Mary was a linguist, or just imply it?  I'm not offhand recalling such a scene.  Or are you referring to where he says she isn't really British and must have changed her accent?

 

[Arcadia]

Re. Mary, maybe she doesn't love John at all. Maybe she is an assassin working in deep cover, and maybe her most recent assignment was to get close to John.

 

etc....

Also too much for me to buy into! Occam's Razor: "the simplest solution is usually the right one." Or in the case of fiction, "the simplest solution is usually the most believeable one." Altho at this point I've no idea what the simplest solution is supposed to be ... especially since the whole scenario is so preposterous to begin with! Isn't fiction fun?

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

especially since the whole scenario is so preposterous to begin with! Isn't fiction fun?

 

  It's amazing just how much mileage this piece of fiction is getting. While the whole scenario may be preposterous I suppose stranger things have happened. But really, I can't see Mycroft not knowing something by this time. To much has happened. Mary would become another one of his goldfish. He would want to know everything about her, if he didn't know it already. And if he can't break a deep cover then I don't know who could.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Occam's Razor: "the simplest solution is usually the right one." Or in the case of fiction, "the simplest solution is usually the most believeable one."

 

But don't forget Moffat's Razor -- the simplest solution is no fun.     As long as that man is writing some of the scripts, logic be damned, and there's no telling where the story will go.

 

[Arcadia]

Yeah, I know, but one can always dream...... And ASiP wasn't so  illogical. Or was it? I confess I'm not that great at following plots, especially when The Coat starts swirling....

[Arcadia]

It's amazing just how much mileage this piece of fiction is getting. While the whole scenario may be preposterous I suppose stranger things have happened. But really, I can't see Mycroft not knowing something by this time. To much has happened. Mary would become another one of his goldfish. He would want to know everything about her, if he didn't know it already. And if he can't break a deep cover then I don't know who could.

That makes sense to me as well. Yet he let her stay in Sherlock's inner circle .... now what d'you suppose we could make of that?

[Caya]

That makes sense to me as well. Yet he let her stay in Sherlock's inner circle .... now what d'you suppose we could make of that?

 

Now that you mention it ... from Mycroft's perspective, that almost certainly made it a mistake. Mary's presence caused Sherlock to be almost killed, twice.

 

We've been speculating all the time about Moriarty or friends of Mary's victims coming for her in S4. What if it's Mycroft who causes her to be removed from that inner circle?

[Redbeard]

I wish they would make her a bad guy and just be done with it.  I'd actually much prefer her as a villain who at the critical moment just could not bring herself to actually kill Sherlock (surgery) because she had reluctantly grown fond of John and Sherlock during her cover.  Then if / when she is eventually ruthlessly taken out (by Mycroft, or Moriarty, or old enemies, who cares!) I would have more sympathy for her and her end would be more tragic (because her kindness at that moment would come back to be her downfall).  John could even have an affectionate forgiveness as he lets her go.  But to have her supposed to be this lovable character that we are all supposed to forgive and accept because she is just really so nice and wonderful and part of the group....

 

I'd rather have her be a tragic villain than an unbelievable heroine. 

[Arcadia]

We've been speculating all the time about Moriarty or friends of Mary's victims coming for her in S4. What if it's Mycroft who causes her to be removed from that inner circle?

I'd like to see him try!

 

Srsly, I would, I'd expect Sherlock to leap to her defense, and I really enjoy watching those two match wits....

[Zain]

 

Now that you mention it ... from Mycroft's perspective, that almost certainly made it a mistake. Mary's presence caused Sherlock to be almost killed, twice.

 

We've been speculating all the time about Moriarty or friends of Mary's victims coming for her in S4. What if it's Mycroft who causes her to be removed from that inner circle?

 

 

Well. I don't want to appear cruel, but she had it coming. I doubt John omitted Mycroft when he told her about Sherlock and his adventures. Yet she had a go at Sherlock.

 

 

Did Sherlock say Mary was a linguist, or just imply it?  I'm not offhand recalling such a scene.  Or are you referring to where he says she isn't really British and must have changed her accent?

 

When she tells him that she'll put in a word for him, he deduces her (all those words flying around her). There's:

Liar, cat lover, clever, bakes own bread, only child, shortsighted (which is very worrying indeed, she after all shot Sherlock...), a few more, and part time nurse and linguist.

If you go deeper into the issue, linguist says you studied it. Part time nurse says you work as a nurse. There's a discrepancy of trained to do and doing. As a fellow linguist, I can tell you what you probably know yourself. Just because you are a linguist, you are not qualified to become a nurse. I wonder if she faked her credentials or if she took courses. She is a bit old for a change of profession, I doubt anybody would hire her as a trainee. So probably she faked the credentials, but why go for a nurse? A bit far from her original choice of profession. A librarian would have been a better fit, for example. Nurse is rather specific. Could indicate that she wants to help people instead of killing them. On the other side, she kept her gun and certainly wasn't hesitant to assault a defenseless person. So, what kind of motive could she have had?

It's a tad fishy.

 

 

I wish they would make her a bad guy and just be done with it.  I'd actually much prefer her as a villain who at the critical moment just could not bring herself to actually kill Sherlock (surgery) because she had reluctantly grown fond of John and Sherlock during her cover.  Then if / when she is eventually ruthlessly taken out (by Mycroft, or Moriarty, or old enemies, who cares!) I would have more sympathy for her and her end would be more tragic (because her kindness at that moment would come back to be her downfall).  John could even have an affectionate forgiveness as he lets her go.  But to have her supposed to be this lovable character that we are all supposed to forgive and accept because she is just really so nice and wonderful and part of the group....

 

I'd rather have her be a tragic villain than an unbelievable heroine. 

 

Yeah, I suppose it would make her departure a bit sadder than at the moment. Probably a higher dramatic level, too. But very difficult. It would require Abbington to perform outstanding. It gets very hard to portray such ambivalence in a convincing way. If she could pull it off... could be a great twist. 

[Arcadia]

I wish they would make her a bad guy and just be done with it.  I'd actually much prefer her as a villain who at the critical moment just could not bring herself to actually kill Sherlock (surgery) because she had reluctantly grown fond of John and Sherlock during her cover.

Errrr.... I think that's already happened..... well, that's what we were told, anyway.

[Slithytove]

Occam's razor! How I love it, and how tired my family are of me referring to it.....

 

I don't know, though, that the deep cover theory is any more complex, though, than the story of an ex-assassin who just happened to fall in love with the best friend of the world's only consulting detective, shortly before said detective returned from the dead. That seems about as likely as having your own best friend a chief bridesmaid happen to be the personal assistant of your enemy.....

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

Could indicate that she wants to help people instead of killing them. On the other side, she kept her gun and certainly wasn't hesitant to assault a defenseless person. So, what kind of motive could she have had?

 

 Couldn't this mirror John Watson as well?  He was a doctor....but as he told Sherlock....he had his bad days. He was a soldier as well and he kept his gun. He also shot a man with no other apparent weapon then a pill. One that Sherlock didn't have to choose to take.

 

 I suppose one might argue that as a CIA operative, Mary was also trained to be a soldier. Black ops and all that.

[Redbeard]

 

I wish they would make her a bad guy and just be done with it.  I'd actually much prefer her as a villain who at the critical moment just could not bring herself to actually kill Sherlock (surgery) because she had reluctantly grown fond of John and Sherlock during her cover.

Errrr.... I think that's already happened..... well, that's what we were told, anyway.

 

 

Well, not exactly.  I think we are being told more that Mary used to be a bad person, who has changed her life, found love, and was only going to shoot Sherlock to protect her new life.  What I am on board with is Mary being a bad person, now, currently, only with John as it is part of her mission, however, growing to care for both John and Sherlock anyway.  It might be a subtle difference, but to me that would shift how I look at Mary.  I'd actually like her more, for reasons I stated above.  The surgery part is the same, just her motivations would be ever so slightly different.  It would change her shooting of Sherlock from a selfish move to a selfless one, one that might come back to haunt her later. 

[Zain]

 

 Couldn't this mirror John Watson as well?  He was a doctor....but as he told Sherlock....he had his bad days. He was a soldier as well and he kept his gun. He also shot a man with no other apparent weapon then a pill. One that Sherlock didn't have to choose to take.

 

 

 

 I suppose one might argue that as a CIA operative, Mary was also trained to be a soldier. Black ops and all that.

 

 

 

I actually interpreted the gun rather differently. I thought he kept it as a precaution, well, in case his life turned out to become too dull for him. You know, that famous gun waiting in a character's drawer to end his life? Then Sherlock came along, his life regained some color, and he found another use for his gun. Instead of turning it against himself, he used it protect Sherlock.

That was my take on it... looks like we interpreted that part of ASiP rather differently.

 

I certainly don't think that Mary kept her gun for that purpose. So I am not convinced of your theory, though it may have merit.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Regardless of why John kept his gun in the first place (assuming that is actually is his army pistol), I'm virtually certain that Zain is right about his thinking of it as his "insurance" if life became really unbearable.  He gave it a much more explicit look in the pilot, though, whereas in E1 we barely saw him glance at it.

 

But that's a fairly minor point at this juncture -- so back to your discussion.

 

[Slithytove]

I'm not very well-informed about organisations such as the CIA or MI6 - to be honest, I'm not very interested and only sat through Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy because Benedict was in it - but I wouldn't have thought that an assassin would be regarded as equivalent to a soldier. Basically, "assassin" means "murderer". If you are a pacifist, you might regard all killings committed by soldiers to be murder, and you might even be right, but from a legal viewpoint and in the eyes of most citizens they are not murderers. Of course, there are times when they act criminally and flout the Geneva Conventions but, generally, killing on the battlefield is not considered to be murder. (i am not trying justify war, just pointing out the legal and, for many people, the moral status of soldiers.) Assassination is murder and therefore Mary knows she would have no defence if arrested, and would go to prison for life.

 

I don't think Mary is very much like either John or Sherlock, though she has been compared to both.

[Arcadia]

Sorry, here goes one of my marathon multi-quotes.....
 

 

Did Sherlock say Mary was a linguist, or just imply it? I'm not offhand recalling such a scene. Or are you referring to where he says she isn't really British and must have changed her accent?

When she tells him that she'll put in a word for him, he deduces her (all those words flying around her). There's:
Liar, cat lover, clever, bakes own bread, only child, shortsighted (which is very worrying indeed, she after all shot Sherlock...), a few more, and part time nurse and linguist.
If you go deeper into the issue, linguist says you studied it. Part time nurse says you work as a nurse. There's a discrepancy of trained to do and doing. As a fellow linguist, I can tell you what you probably know yourself. Just because you are a linguist, you are not qualified to become a nurse. I wonder if she faked her credentials or if she took courses. She is a bit old for a change of profession, I doubt anybody would hire her as a trainee. So probably she faked the credentials, but why go for a nurse? A bit far from her original choice of profession. A librarian would have been a better fit, for example. Nurse is rather specific. Could indicate that she wants to help people instead of killing them. On the other side, she kept her gun and certainly wasn't hesitant to assault a defenseless person. So, what kind of motive could she have had
It's a tad fishy.

 

Let's see, my brother was in his late-40's to early 50's -- older than Mary, anyway -- when he switched careers from artist to nurse. He had NO trouble getting hired, but at the time (I'm not sure about now) there was a lot of concern in this country about the shortage of nurses. But still, I don't find it unlikely that Mary could get training and get hired. We don't know how long ago she stopped being an assassin, we just know when she became Mary Morstan. Also it would be hard (again, at least in the States) to fake her credentials, and even harder to fake her competence. So I'm inclined to believe she actually has the training and the certification. In fact, there's nothing to say she wasn't a nurse before she was an assassin.

Having said that, I agree it's a strange choice of careers for a former assassin. But then, I thought it was a strange choice of careers for my artist brother too!
 

Occam's razor! How I love it, and how tired my family are of me referring to it.....

I don't know, though, that the deep cover theory is any more complex, though, than the story of an ex-assassin who just happened to fall in love with the best friend of the world's only consulting detective, shortly before said detective returned from the dead. That seems about as likely as having your own best friend a chief bridesmaid happen to be the personal assistant of your enemy.....

Well, when you put it like that.... !

I don't find any of it likely, to be honest. But I am firmly -- FIRMLY -- willing suspension of disbelief!
 

 

 

I wish they would make her a bad guy and just be done with it. I'd actually much prefer her as a villain who at the critical moment just could not bring herself to actually kill Sherlock (surgery) because she had reluctantly grown fond of John and Sherlock during her cover.

Errrr.... I think that's already happened..... well, that's what we were told, anyway.

 

Well, not exactly......

 

Sorry, I was attempting to be facetious. Judging from the comments around here, I think plenty of people already find her a bad guy! Er, gal. Something.
 

I'm not very well-informed about organisations such as the CIA or MI6 - to be honest, I'm not very interested and only sat through Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy because Benedict was in it - but I wouldn't have thought that an assassin would be regarded as equivalent to a soldier. Basically, "assassin" means "murderer". If you are a pacifist, you might regard all killings committed by soldiers to be murder, and you might even be right, but from a legal viewpoint and in the eyes of most citizens they are not murderers. Of course, there are times when they act criminally and flout the Geneva Conventions but, generally, killing on the battlefield is not considered to be murder. (i am not trying justify war, just pointing out the legal and, for many people, the moral status of soldiers.) Assassination is murder and therefore Mary knows she would have no defence if arrested, and would go to prison for life.

I don't think Mary is very much like either John or Sherlock, though she has been compared to both.

I'm sure I know even less about it! But I do know people have carried out assassinations on behalf of the American government. I might consider it murder, but our government doesn't. And the Navy SEALS are definitely military, but are used for what many would consider assassination. Things have become very murky indeed in our world.

Oh, I think it's pretty easy to make comparisons between Mary and Sherlock; they both lied convincingly, they both shot unarmed men, and they both did it for John. The only difference is, Sherlock aimed to kill, and Mary ... well, there's no agreement there, but Sherlock's still alive and CAM isn't. Or maybe he is and we'll see him again in S5. (NOooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!)

Having said that, it never occurred to me to think Mary was like Sherlock, or whoever .... I think one of the themes of the show is that everyone's different. Even someone as ordinary-seeming as Molly is actually quite unique. Or in Moftiss speak, a "sociopath".

[Slithytove]

I am not sure that a comparison of two people's actions necessarily indicates any similarity between the people themselves. For instance, you could say that two people tell lies but they could have very different reasons for lying. One could be lying to protect someone, the other could be doing it to get someone into trouble. Context, motivation, content.....They all make such a difference. I don't see any resemblance between Mary and Sherlock's natures, though the writers seem to expect us to, nor do I think John and Mary are alike. To me, they seem like opposites in many ways.

[Arcadia]

I would agree with that. In what way was she being compared, then? I barely know what she's like, frankly, I wouldn't know how to compare her to anyone else except by her actions. She's a puzzle with no key (yet) imo.

[T.o.b.y]

I don't see any resemblance between Mary and Sherlock's natures, though the writers seem to expect us to, nor do I think John and Mary are alike. To me, they seem like opposites in many ways.

 

I don't know whether we're expected to think them alike, but all in all, I don't, either. Sure, there are obvious parallels. But there seems to be very little romance in Mary. While Sherlock does have "the heart of a poet", even though he'd probably turn his withering scorn on anybody who dared to suggest such an idea to his face, Mary seems very practical and pragmatic to me. Just look at how they attempt a murder: Mary sneaks in quietly on her own, pulls her gun and would have left just as unobtrusively as she came, then she'd never have told a living soul and problem solved. Sherlock first has to seduce a lovely girl. Then he has to show off his "conquest" to his best friend. Then he has to impress that friend with his brilliant plan of breaking into the victims' office, using that as another darling little demonstration of how love is a weakness anyway. Then he has to make a fuss because somebody else has already broken in. Then finally, he shoots the very person he stopped Mary from killing, for the same reasons, in a dramatic showdown in front of a dozen witnesses, complete with heroic last words and falling on his knees. And - curtain.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love, adore and worship Sherlock and I no more than am quite fond of Mary, but her way of doing these things does seem more efficient...

 

[Arcadia]

!!! You gotta admit, though, the man has FLAIR!!!