Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[wildwoodflower]

 

 

I mean, what are the writers really trying to tell us? That Mary's actions can be justified by the fact that John would be crushed if he knew the truth? What if he should find out years later? And what about Sherlock; if he died, would that be any less devastating to John?

 

I am, however, re-evaluating my opinion on John. He does get very angry initially upon finding out, and he stays angry for quite a while - according to Mary, he has given her the silent-treatment for months. But unfortunately we don't get to see that. It might have been a bit satisfying. In the end he decides to let the past be the past, and the forgiveness-scene is actually quite moving, or it would be, if it wasn't overshadowed by the real problem - that she put a bullet in Sherlock's chest. Don't mess with Sherlock!! But the writers don't even approach John's wrath at that, and he has to be angry about it! The forgiveness comes too easily, without really dealing with the extent of the issues.

 

If they kill off Mary, or have John divorce her, I'll probably be persuaded to watch the following episodes; otherwise not, because I have a big, big issue with her now.

 

Oh, and the whole John-subconsciously-wanted-to-marry-an-ex-killer? Makes him seem darker in a way that I dislike.

 

Welcome to Sherlock Into Darkness.

 

 

Well Mary does die in canon, but I was kind of relieved to see they didn't go that route right away. ACD probably did it so he could get the gents back together at Baker Street. It's convenient and plausible given the era in which the stories were written. But I was kind of thrilled that they didn't go there, that they made her a more interesting and complicated character. At the same time I would have been content for her to be just a really smart good person who gets a long famously with her husband and his friend. Someone who isn't going to be sacrificed on the altar of the bro-bond because she gets in the way of their epic love. It's ridiculous. There is room in a person's heart for more than one. Even in Sherlock's heart. We've been shown that this series. He has a mother and father who love him, he had a dog, his brother loves him, he loves John and Mary. Life is richer and broader and more expansive than this romance novel so many fans want. Grrr. 

 

Anyway I do understand what you're saying. And why you feel the way you do. sometimes the choices writers make seem to stretch credulity, but then again it's a very big show that kind of stretched credultiy all the time. Still, I'm a teensy bit doubtful your commitment not to watch if Mary lives on. I've heard it too many times in other fandoms and the same people making the declarations are back in the fray the next time around.

 

[T.o.b.y]

Well! Whatever strange turns this show takes, it sure still has the power to make people think. Just look at this discussion here. I can forgive a lot for that!

 

Before I plunge into the depths of character development and interpretation again, I "need" a moment to point out one decided merit of His Last Vow: It is, in my humble opinion, a very good adaptation of three original Sherlock Holmes stories: Charles Augustus Milverton, His Last Bow and The Man with the Twisted Lip (plus little references on the side). There were so many details that I can't and won't elaborate on all of them here (who would read that). I'll try to stick with the "big things".

 

First of all: Milverton. One of my favorite stories, but a very unusual one. It does not even feature a "real" case. There is no puzzle, no deduction, no cleverness in the true Sherlock Holmes sense. It is simply about a woman seeking Holmes' help against a villain who is blackmailing her. It is quite clear who and why and how. Nothing to find out, just the villain to fight against and the client's honor to fight for, in the true spirit of chivalry. I love how the writers have Mycroft comment on this in the modern adaptation, pointing out that Sherlock sees himself as a "dragon slayer" rather than merely a detective. 

Another big issue in the original Milverton story is Holmes' willingness to risk his own good name, his freedom and if need be his life to save the villain's victims. Did we ever see Sherlock do that in this episode!

It is very interesting that in this same story, where chivalry rules, we also get Holmes' most callous and heartless treatment of a woman: Milverton's Housemaid, whom he gets engaged to just so he can get into his house. I have always wanted to see the writers of "Sherlock" tackle that bit and I think they did it superbly.

Milverton was never beaten by Holmes. He was shot at close range by a lady seeking revenge. Holmes then destroyed Milverton's archives after he was dead. Since the archives here were in Magnussen's head, it seems fitting that Sherlock got to kill him in this version, after they had payed respect to the original by letting Mary at least try to assassinate him. It was quite a clever little twist to turn the gun around and let our hero take the shot to the chest instead!

 

Next, His Last Bow. I do not like that story and I have not read it often, but I did recognize the "East Wind" as the tide of trouble and turmoil (in the original text, it refers to the coming war). Also Janine's cottage on the Sussex Downs is a nice reference to Holmes' later retreat. I am so glad she said she was getting rid of the bee hives. That makes me hope the writers have killed this particular ending for Sherlock. Hurray! And Mycroft's plans for his brother in exile smack of Holmes' being a spy in His Last Bow and working for the British Government.

 

As for The Man with the Twisted Lip, the first part of the episode was basically a re-write of the opening of that one. With the significant difference that Holmes didn't actually take opium in the opium den. But he did use cocaine excessively after the Watsons' marriage, so really taking drugs but all for the work is a nice tying together of those two plot elements.

 

Further references I spotted were Billy (Holmes' page in the original) and AGRA. This last one refers to the "Agra treasure", the fortune the original Mary Morstan (who, btw, was of course not an assassin and not living under an alias, but a perfectly lovely angelic governess and later darling wife) was supposed to inherit.

 

 

What I sorely missed was the part Dr Watson originally played in Charles Augustus Milverton. He was wonderful in the original story and stepped in to prevent Holmes from doing what Sherlock does here: go off and ruin his life on his own. There's very much a spirit of "either we both go down or neither" in the old book. But of course, Watson was already widowed there. He didn't have to consider a wife and child.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Posted Today, 05:48 AM by [RSS]

 

Sherlock S3E3 His Last Vow was once again the most watched television programme of the day in the UK yesterday, bringing in 8.77m viewers in initial overnight ratings.

This is a drop of 70k viewers from the previous episode, still a far smaller drop than the viewer loss from episodes 2 and 3 of previous series.

By way of comparison, S2E3 The Reichenbach Fall pulled in 7.9m viewers in overnight ratings in January 2012.

Steven Moffat, co-creator, executive producer and writer of Sherlock said: “It isn’t supposed to be like this. Sherlock began life as a surprise hit, and now in its third series, it’s rating higher than ever. This show, which we all thought would be our vanity project destined for 3 million in the ratings and possibly an award from an obscure European festival, has become a barnstorming international phenomenon. If I live to be a very old man, I might be able to explain how any of that happened - drop me a line in about forty years, I’ll do my best.  Till then, on behalf of Mark and Sue and myself - who started all this, not so very long ago – thank you all for the very best of times!”

View the full article

[Cheerio1021]

Meh.  I am underwhelmed.  I loved it up until John forgave Mary, and then it all seemed to deteriorate rapidly.  The ending was just a weird jumble... unsatisfying, and not in a cliffhanger-y way.

 

1.)  Really, we have to bring Moriarty back?  I loved him; he was a great villian.  But bringing him back after the rooftop scene just... explodes credulity.  It's a bit of an eye-roll moment for me.

 

2.)  I want Mary gone.  I was hoping it would happen in this episode.  It SHOULD have happened in this episode.  Interesting character, good acting by AA, but I want her gone. 

 

3.)  Except now she's having John's baby and he's forgiven her (!) for nearly killing his best friend.  So it feels like we're stuck with her, or at least stuck with domesticated (but dark!) John.  Bleh.

 

4.)  I hated both Mary's and John's goodbyes to Sherlock.  Mary kissed him like he was going on vacation, and John... shook his hand.  And emphasized repeatedly that he wasn't going to name his baby after him.  I've only seen it once, but that entire scene left me cold.  Other than Sherlock, the emotional portrayals just seemed all wrong.

 

5.)  And then four minutes later, the plane turns around and he comes back!  I get that otherwise it would have been a LOT like TRF, but I think I'd have preferred even that to this mish-mash.

 

6.) As usual, I loved every scene Mycroft was in.  I'd been worried they were humanizing his relationship to Sherlock only to kill him off.  Thank goodness that wasn't the case. 

 

7.) Molly was... fine.  From some of the spoiler-y things I read I'd assumed her role would be a bit more meaningful.  The slapping scene didn't blow me away.  Happy she's not marrying Tom -- but did anyone ever think she would?

 

8.)  More Lestrade would have been a plus, as always.

 

9.)  General complaint I have about Series 3:  Sherlock's and John's importance to each other was constantly talked about (by John, Sherlock, Mary, Magnusson, etc.), but not DEMONSTRATED enough.  I feel like so much time was spent pounding into our heads:  "Sherlock cares.  SHERLOCK CARES," that it didn't leave enough space to put their relationship into a dramatic context the way Series 1 and 2 did. 

 

I find I care far less what happens next than I did after either Series 1 or 2.  Which makes me a little sad.

[Zain]

 

I agree about how ridiculous it is that John, knowing that Mary's killed people in the past, doesn't even want to know about it?

 

John is a military man.  He too has killed people in the past.  So both he and she are killers.

 

 

 

I beg to differ, though.

John, to our knowledge, has killed. In war, then in London. In the very first episode, we see him kill the cabbie. He killed him in a life-threatening situation.

Mary, however, is a murderer. She deliberately kills. She broke in, she hurt all those people that were simply working for Magnussen. Then she tries to kill him. It was deliberate. That is murder. 

 

The issue at hand with this episode is just that: Morals.

With Mary, we know that she was a criminal before. And she still is. While people might argue about "letting go of past wrongs", she very recently went on a murder spree, killed Sherlock, and when he survived by his own merits, she went after him with a gun. There's no feeling of guilt in her. She does not regret it. And it seems like she never regretted her past either, murder is part of her present self.

I do  have problems with John's decision. We got to know him as a man who is ruled by his morals. He became Sherlock's guide in those matters. Now we get to know that he does in fact not know the difference between killing someone and murdering someone. What does that tell us about his heart?

 

It also makes for a rather ridiculous conclusion: Sherlock is a better man than John. Sherlock, from the very beginning of the series, knows the difference between those two kinds of killing someone. When he deduces the "mystery shooter", he does just that: he makes this distinction. He was aware of the difference before John influenced him.

 

And this goes against everything John always stood for. That's why I cannot accept his decision. I wish Sherlock just was drugged out of his mind and season 4 picks up after John found him in the drug den.

I usually am good at thinking things further, but for once, I cannot see Sherlock heading in anything but a soap direction, with a baby on the way, and Sherlock's deus-ex-machina return, as well as Mary's exoneration (without her even regretting that she killed her husband's best friend). I am tired, and I can only imagine how Sherlock feels. He has given, and given. And John and Mary have taken whatever he offered. His work, his integrity, his family, his life. John cannot be this blind. He cannot. He just can't.

I can't see him making it up to Sherlock in any way...  what could season 4 include that would redeem him?

I have no idea. He'd have to decide, to truly choose, to stand beside Sherlock. To go down with him. And he already made it clear in His Last Vow, that he will not do that. 

I feel so sorry for Sherlock. That is not what I had hoped. I hoped back in season one that John would give him friendship, and that John would be someone he could trust with his life.

Now we know, Sherlock can't.

[Let's_have_dinner]

Something else I've been thinking about Mary is how her character really doesn't fit the backstory and hints we were given about her character. I know she was lying about her past, but not all of her personality was a lie, and there were familiar aspects of her personality even after the truth came out. This person just didn't seem like an assassin, someone who'd killed lots of people and been "very bad." More believable for me would have been some sort of revenge storyline where she had killed people who had been responsible for her parents' deaths. I can believe she would kill people who had torn her family apart, and that she would lie to protect that secret. But being a CIA agent (we're assuming) and then going rogue and leaving piles of bodies littered behind her... It just doesn't fit the Mary we know. There still could have been a shock moment when Mary is revealed as "not who she says" and elements of her past and crimes are revealed, but for me it wasn't really done in a plausible way. I also would have found Mary more likable and her actions more forgivable if we'd heard an emotional backstory of her family being killed and how she'd vowed to avenge their deaths. Then I could have understood John forgiving her more too.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I will look forward to the next Season with as much anticipation as I did the second and third. My only consolation in all this is, that in canon Mary dies. Maybe that is their plan here as well. At least when this version of Mary dies, the majority of the fandom will probably not morn her over much. I know I won't as much as I did want to like her. Shooting Sherlock, in such cold blood even after his offering her his help is, as one fan put it, way beyond the pale.

[KaeEm]

Hello Everybody! I'm new to this forum and after being quite shocked at all the hate John gets here after yesterday's episode, I'd really like to join the discussion. 

 

First of all I doubt that things would have turned out differently if John hadn't chosen to stay with Mary (I don't think he has fully forgiven her yet, he said that he was still very pissed at her. He has just chosen not to give up on her completely). Even if John had left Mary for good after what she did to Sherlock, Magnussen would still have had leverage over Sherlock and John. Because if Magnussen had made public who Mary was, there's no doubt she would either have been killed (more likely) or sent to prison for lifetime. And no matter how angry John was at her, he would never have forgiven himself for basically causing the mother of his unborn child and the women who had most likely been his only support during the "dark years" of Sherlocks's absence being shot or locked away for life. We know how loyal John is to the people who have been there for him during this darkest days, so I really don't see him just get over the guilt of basically not preventing her from dying/going to jail if he could have. So no matter of the choice John made, he would still have had to suffer (a lot) from Magnussen's leverage and Sherlock would still have wanted to prevent his suffering. 

 

Secondly, at least for me John hasn't lost his status as the moral compass. I just like to think that he desparatly wants to believe that his wife, the woman he has loved for the last two years and who has basically been there for him when he had reached a low point in his ilfe and who is the mother of his unborn child, hasn't killed anyone who didn't deserve to be killed. John himself has killed before (quite coldly and without any bad conscience afterwards), but only when he thought the killing was justified. I think by not reading Mary's file, John is trying to pretend and convince himself that Mary did the same and didn't do anything more immoral than himself. If he had actually read the file, found out that she had been killing innocent people and still would have loved and forgiven her, that would be a totally different matter. And by the way: She didn't kill Janine, she was hardly injured. She killed the security guard, but that could have been in self defence. And she tried to kill Magnussen, but isn't that what Sherlock did too, in the end? What Mary tried to do there was some kind of self defence against a criminal blackmailer. In the end, there remains "only" the shooting of Sherlock that can't be justified by any means, but Sherlock himself is doing his best to justify this for John.

 

Thirdly, I don't really see where John has betrayed Sherlock. I think back in the flat when he had just found out about who Mary really was, he was quite ready to chose Sherlock over Mary for good. Note that it actually was Sherlock who prevented him from doing that and kept defending her, speaking in her defense and trying to convince John that she wasn't such a bad person as he - John - thought she was. And although we know how high John values Sherlocks opinion it still took him months to even talk to Mary again (as we learn in the scene in Sherlock's parent's house, John has been giving Mary the silent treating for months). So the forgivness didn't come easy to John and I dare think that it took Sherlock quite a lot of manipulation to even bring John to come to the point where he decided he wanted to give Mary a second chance (because I don't think he has fully forgiven her in that scene, he just let her know that he was giving her a second chance). Sherlock wanted John to not give up on Mary and we know a) how convincing and manipulative he can be and that John is loyal to a fault to Sherlock and finds it quite hard to say no to any of Sherlock's requests. Sherlock even brought Mary and John to his parents to manipulate John to speed up the "reunion". So given that this "reunion" was actually what Sherlock wanted, I don't really see how John has betrayed him. I have no doubt that if Sherlock hadn't been pushing John to forgive Mary, John probably wouldn't have made the effort to try and do so.

 

And lastly, I don't really see what John could have done to save Sherlock after he had shot Magnussen. There where plenty of witnesses who had seen that Sherlock had taken that shot, so what could John have done? And should he have thanked Sherlock for doing what he had done? I don't actually think that John wants to be thankful for having Mary but in exchange losing Sherlock again. Sherlock thought that John would be better off with Mary than with him (and by that I mean as best friends and NOT as lovers), but I'm not sure if John actually agrees with that. So I don't think that thanking Sherlock for taking John's best friend away from him again would have made things any better. And as for John standing at the airport hand in hand with Mary: Sherlock had just basically given his live to protect John and Mary and their unborn child, in short, the Watson family. I don't think it would have made him feel better to see John turing his back on Mary and by that negating everything Sherlock had risked to save them. 

 

Wow, this post has become way longer than I expected. I just feel really sorry for both Sherlock AND John and I don't think John is such a bad person or has made any such heartless choices to deserve all those negative words he has been getting here. He actually IS the victim in this whole story and has had his whole live shattered to pieces once again (and so has Sherlock and I feel as bad for him as I do for John). And yes, I'm fully aware that we're all just talking about a TV-Series here and not about real people   But it's fun doing that, isn't it? 

[Zain]

I will look forward to the next Season with as much anticipation as I did the second and third. My only consolation in all this is, that in canon Mary dies. Maybe that is their plan here as well. At least when this version of Mary dies, the majority of the fandom will probably not morn her over much. I know I won't as much as I did want to like her. Shooting Sherlock, in such cold blood even after his offering her his help is, as one fan put it, way beyond the pale.

 

Yep, I cannot say I'd mourn her. But I don't think that will solve the current issues at hand, sadly. Even her death would leave this ugly cracks in John and Sherlock's friendship. Funnily, season three has caused a bigger rift in their relationship than people anticipated.

I truly missed one gesture of closure, one sign that John will stop hurting Sherlock now... Maybe if he had boarded the plane together with Sherlock. Or if he had tried to shield Sherlock when the guns were directed at him. It would have been a gesture of good will. Something to grasp, to hold on. To find hope.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I feel that right then, no body could have moved. Sherlock certainly told him not to and went to his knees hands up. If John had tried to move to shield him, he could have easily been shot. Mycroft did command that they do not fire on Sherlock Holmes, nothing was said of John Watson. In my humble point of view, I don't see the rift so deep that bridges can't be built or at least repaired. It was Sherlock  that kept John and Mary together when John was more then ready to turn his back on her for Sherlock's sake. But at the plane, John and Sherlock do seem close, and John seems relieved, in a conserved sort of way, to see that plan land again. And he knows that Sherlock, and he...are going to be on the hunt, and soon.

[MrsHudsonsbins]

Let's not forget that John kills off the cabbie in 'A study in pink' with no hesitation. He's also still undergoing therapy for PTSD (I assume as he's still writing his blog and that was part of his therapy?)

 

Kate

[niegeb]

Hi! I am new here. I am from Brazil so please forgive my english!

I read a lot of messages of this topic but I couldn't read everything, so I am sorry if I am saying something that someone said already.

 

I loved the episode, but I have some questions, I would be happy if someone could help me. I watched the episode at 5 am, so I if I am being dumb or something its because I was a little bit out of myself when I watched hahaha

 

1-Charles threatened Mary to get to Mycroft, right? So when this actually started to happen? Before the wedding or after? Anyway, Sherlock mentioned that Mary was friend with Janine just to get closer to Charles. Janine was at the wedding, so it's very likely that she and Mary were friends for some time. Charles must threatened Mary a long time ago, but how does he knew the importance of Mary to Watson at that time? Unless she threatened her when she was engaged and Mary befriended Janine very quickly, which I think it's possible but also a weak point in the plot.

 

2-What were the odds of Sherlock break into Charles office and Mary be there at the same time? Did I miss something?

[Caya]

Hello KaeEm and niegeb and welcome to the forum!

[KaeEm]

 

 

 

 

 

I truly missed one gesture of closure, one sign that John will stop hurting Sherlock now... Maybe if he had boarded the plane together with Sherlock. Or if he had tried to shield Sherlock when the guns were directed at him. It would have been a gesture of good will. Something to grasp, to hold on. To find hope.

 

 

Where did he actually hurt Sherlock? Sherlock clearly didn't want John to give up on Mary, in the oppsite: He did everything he could to bring them back together. 

 

By boarding the plane with Sherlock, John would have negated everything that Sherlock had risked his life for. Sherlock had shot Magnussen so John and Mary could stay together. If John had boarded that plane with Sherlock, that would have been letting him know that everything he had risked and worked for in that episode had been in vain. I don't know if I would have preferred that ending, Sherlock knowing he had fought in vain for John's happiness . . . I think letting Sherlock believe that he had successfully restored John's happiness is the best gesture of good will that John could go for in that horrible situation. 

 

What would shielding Sherlock have been good for? There were too many guns pointed at them, there was absolutely nothing John could do there to protect Sherlock. 

[Caya]

Still, it would've been a nice gesture, I have to agree. A bit of the old "you and me against the world" instead of "me and Mary, and then there's Sherlock" which seem to be John's priorities now. Understandable perhaps, but it still makes me sad.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Niegeb, KaeEm, welcome indeed to the Sherlock Forum!

 

  No, I don't think Charles Augustus thought there was any kind of link between Mary and Mycroft.  Mycroft was shielding the man. Told Sherlock that Charles Augustus was a "necessary evil" and to stay away from him.

 

  Mary knew that Charles Augustus knew of her background especially since he made a point of sending her a note on her wedding day. But how much Janine was involved, I don't know if we have all that information.

 

  I think it was just bad timing on Sherlock's part to try to break into Charles Augustus apartment the same night Mary decided to do something about the Master Blackmailer.

[aely]

I just gave that my first 10/10 for an episode of Sherlock. Only complaint - not enough Lestrade!

[Zain]

 

 

First of all I doubt that things would have turned out differently if John hadn't chosen to stay with Mary (I don't think he has fully forgiven her yet, he said that he was still very pissed at her. He has just chosen not to give up on her completely). Even if John had left Mary for good after what she did to Sherlock, Magnussen would still have had leverage over Sherlock and John. Because if Magnussen had made public who Mary was, there's no doubt she would either have been killed (more likely) or sent to prison for lifetime. And no matter how angry John was at her, he would never have forgiven himself for basically causing the mother of his unborn child and the women who had most likely been his only support during the "dark years" of Sherlocks's absence being shot or locked away for life. We know how loyal John is to the people who have been there for him during this darkest days, so I really don't see him just get over the guilt of basically not preventing her from dying/going to jail if he could have. So no matter of the choice John made, he would still have had to suffer (a lot) from Magnussen's leverage and Sherlock would still have wanted to prevent his suffering. 

 

 

 

But wouldn't you say that Mary deserves to be sent to prison? Apart from her past, one of the things I lack most in this episode is some form of consequence for her. Something that tells her that it was not okay to go on a murder spree, kill your husband's best friend, and when he by miracle bounces back after being clincally dead, hunt him down with a gun. Instead, she achieved everything she had wanted. John remained at her side. It's positive reinforcement. She got away with deliberately breaking in, hurting innocent people (Magnussen's staff), ambushing him, and killing Sherlock. That's what she should legally be responsible for. In a moral way, she also lied to her husband and married him under false pretense. I wouldn't call getting the silent treatment punishment. Let's face it; Mary got away with all of that, and suceeded. She got barely her fingers slapped. This will not change her. She will not have learned anything from this, she did not have to face any consequences.

Sure, as an avid Johnlock fan (I ship other pairings, too), I like them living at Baker Street. But my complaint isn't about that. It's the fact that John positively reinforces her criminal streak. He should have moved out, at least. To Harry's, if he wanted to avoid Sherlock.

And Mary and John weren't together that long when Sherlock returned. She did not get him through the dark times, even though it is a redeeming thought. I hope it will be used in fanworks, to at least smooth over this blunder of characterization.

 

 

 

Thirdly, I don't really see where John has betrayed Sherlock. I think back in the flat when he had just found out about who Mary really was, he was quite ready to chose Sherlock over Mary for good. Note that it actually was Sherlock who prevented him from doing that and kept defending her, speaking in her defense and trying to convince John that she wasn't such a bad person as he - John - thought she was. And although we know how high John values Sherlocks opinion it still took him months to even talk to Mary again (as we learn in the scene in Sherlock's parent's house, John has been giving Mary the silent treating for months). So the forgivness didn't come easy to John and I dare think that it took Sherlock quite a lot of manipulation to even bring John to come to the point where he decided he wanted to give Mary a second chance (because I don't think he has fully forgiven her in that scene, he just let her know that he was giving her a second chance). Sherlock wanted John to not give up on Mary and we know a) how convincing and manipulative he can be and that John is loyal to a fault to Sherlock and finds it quite hard to say no to any of Sherlock's requests. Sherlock even brought Mary and John to his parents to manipulate John to speed up the "reunion". So given that this "reunion" was actually what Sherlock wanted, I don't really see how John has betrayed him. I have no doubt that if Sherlock hadn't been pushing John to forgive Mary, John probably wouldn't have made the effort to try and do so.

 

Actually, that's why I think John betrayed Sherlock.

It's the duty of a friend to stand up for your friend when he does not do it for himself. Sherlock defends Mary, and that's the more reason for John to lash out. Sherlock doesn't stand up for himself. He died. She did not spare him. Sure, she could have given him a head shot, but letting him bleed out seems not that much nicer. He was in shock, he was in a lot of pain. He later collapses again. If Mary truly had wanted to spare him, she'd have shot him elsewhere. It was only Sherlock's quick thinking that saved his life. John should know. He was there when they were losing Sherlock, he was in the ambulance, he was at hospital, he was at Baker Street when Sherlock collapsed again. 

If Sherlock was truly pushing for the reunion, it is even more reason for John not to do so. Sherlock still doesn't stand up for himself, and as a friend, how can he accept that? How can he accept that Sherlock has to deal with the person who shot him cold-bloodedly? I am not saying that this is the right way to deal with things;  but it is the right way to act as a friend. Friends should protect each other. And I lack just that protection from John's side.

 

 

 

 

And lastly, I don't really see what John could have done to save Sherlock after he had shot Magnussen. There where plenty of witnesses who had seen that Sherlock had taken that shot, so what could John have done? And should he have thanked Sherlock for doing what he had done? I don't actually think that John wants to be thankful for having Mary but in exchange losing Sherlock again. Sherlock thought that John would be better off with Mary than with him (and by that I mean as best friends and NOT as lovers), but I'm not sure if John actually agrees with that. So I don't think that thanking Sherlock for taking John's best friend away from him again would have made things any better. And as for John standing at the airport hand in hand with Mary: Sherlock had just basically given his live to protect John and Mary and their unborn child, in short, the Watson family. I don't think it would have made him feel better to see John turing his back on Mary and by that negating everything Sherlock had risked to save them. 

I agree. John could not have done anything to save Sherlock; to me, it's more about the gesture, a sign of good will. Of friendship. Sherlock just killed somebody for him, and they are in danger of separation. It would be really stupid to shield Sherlock, yes, but it would be the right things to do as a friend.

In that spirit, I see the airport scene as another betrayel. Sure, Sherlock wanted them back together. But isn't that why John should show Sherlock that this is not what John wanted? I don't think John wanted Sherlock to give his life, his work, his family for him. That would make things even more horrible. And John should have shown Sherlock in some way that it is not what he had wanted. Being there with Mary and saying goodbye is not what he wanted. To me, it would mean true friendship for John to stand there on his own, or to board the plane with him. It would mean "You idiot, that's what I want."

 

Don't get me wrong, I respect your opinion. And I didn't even touch your second point.

The episode just clashes with my entire concept of friendship and my impression of John.

[KaeEm]

Still, it would've been a nice gesture, I have to agree. A bit of the old "you and me against the world" instead of "me and Mary, and then there's Sherlock" which seem to be John's priorities now. Understandable perhaps, but it still makes me sad.

 

I don't think I have seen a "me and Mary, and then there's Sherlock" in this episode. I had the feeling John was ever so ready to chose Sherlock over Mary but Sherlock didn't want him to. Remember that Sherlocked drugged Mary and she passed out before they went to confront Magnussen? If it had been indeed "me and Mary, and then there's Sherlock", John would have stayed with his unconscious, pregnant wife. And yet he was more than willing to join Sherlock on his quest to confront Magnussen. That was classic "you and me against the rest of the world" stuff. And in the end, John must have known very well that Mycroft would never let him board that plane with Sherlock. He had no choice than to either stay with Mary (and his unborn child) or lose both his best friend and his wife, in short the two people who had been there for him when he thought he didn't have anything left to live for. 

[KaeEm]

 

But wouldn't you say that Mary deserves to be sent to prison? Apart from her past, one of the things I lack most in this episode is some form of consequence for her. Something that tells her that it was not okay to go on a murder spree, kill your husband's best friend, and when he by miracle bounces back after being clincally dead, hunt him down with a gun. Instead, she achieved everything she had wanted. John remained at her side. It's positive reinforcement. She got away with deliberately breaking in, hurting innocent people (Magnussen's staff), ambushing him, and killing Sherlock. That's what she should legally be responsible for. In a moral way, she also lied to her husband and married him under false pretense. I wouldn't call getting the silent treatment punishment. Let's face it; Mary got away with all of that, and suceeded. She got barely her fingers slapped. This will not change her. She will not have learned anything from this, she did not have to face any consequences.

Sure, as an avid Johnlock fan (I ship other pairings, too), I like them living at Baker Street. But my complaint isn't about that. It's the fact that John positively reinforces her criminal streak. He should have moved out, at least. To Harry's, if he wanted to avoid Sherlock.

And Mary and John weren't together that long when Sherlock returned. She did not get him through the dark times, even though it is a redeeming thought. I hope it will be used in fanworks, to at least smooth over this blunder of characterization.

 

 

 

Actually, that's why I think John betrayed Sherlock.

It's the duty of a friend to stand up for your friend when he does not do it for himself. Sherlock defends Mary, and that's the more reason for John to lash out. Sherlock doesn't stand up for himself. He died. She did not spare him. Sure, she could have given him a head shot, but letting him bleed out seems not that much nicer. He was in shock, he was in a lot of pain. He later collapses again. If Mary truly had wanted to spare him, she'd have shot him elsewhere. It was only Sherlock's quick thinking that saved his life. John should know. He was there when they were losing Sherlock, he was in the ambulance, he was at hospital, he was at Baker Street when Sherlock collapsed again. 

If Sherlock was truly pushing for the reunion, it is even more reason for John not to do so. Sherlock still doesn't stand up for himself, and as a friend, how can he accept that? How can he accept that Sherlock has to deal with the person who shot him cold-bloodedly? I am not saying that this is the right way to deal with things;  but it is the right way to act as a friend. Friends should protect each other. And I lack just that protection from John's side.

 

 

I agree. John could not have done anything to save Sherlock; to me, it's more about the gesture, a sign of good will. Of friendship. Sherlock just killed somebody for him, and they are in danger of separation. It would be really stupid to shield Sherlock, yes, but it would be the right things to do as a friend.

 

 

In that spirit, I see the airport scene as another betrayel. Sure, Sherlock wanted them back together. But isn't that why John should show Sherlock that this is not what John wanted? I don't think John wanted Sherlock to give his life, his work, his family for him. That would make things even more horrible. And John should have shown Sherlock in some way that it is not what he had wanted. Being there with Mary and saying goodbye is not what he wanted. To me, it would mean true friendship for John to stand there on his own, or to board the plane with him. It would mean "You idiot, that's what I want."

 

Don't get me wrong, I respect your opinion. And I didn't even touch your second point.

The episode just clashes with my entire concept of friendship and my impression of John.

 

I absolutely respect your opinion as well, just enjoying the discussion. 

 

A absolutely agree that Mary would deserve going to prison for what she did in this episode. But if we are honest, so would Sherlock, not only for what he did in this episode but also - for example - for throwing that CIA agent out of the window several times in "A scandal in Belgravia" - just to mention one occasion. And yes, John should have stood up for Sherlock, but then again, how do you stand up for Sherlock Holmes if he has set his mind on not letting you do so? Sherlock usually gets what he wants from John, no matter how far he has to go. And Sherlock breaking his first and last ever vow? There was no way he was going to let that happen. 

 

John and Mary had been a couple for at least six months when Sherlock returned from the dead and probably had met before that. Seeing how affected by Sherlock's death John still was after two years, I don't want to know how he was before Mary was in the picture. So we can savely assume that he owes her a lot. John Watson wouldn't easily exclude someone he owes a lot to out of his life for good, as we have seen in the past. So even if he was willing to stand up for Sherlock (which he was in that scene in the flat), Sherlock had lots of arguments to make him reconsider. 

 

I don't know. I just don't think that John letting Sherlock know that he had just given up everything for nothing would have been a sign of friendship. It would be like: "Look, you idiot, all I wanted is to be with you and now, because of your stupid actions, we're separated forever. You've messed up bigime!" Would that be what you would want to hear from your best friend if you saw him/her for the last time or would you rather believe that you actually made a difference, sacrificed yourself for him/her to be happy? I know what I would prefer. 

[T.o.b.y]

Okay. I knew it. I just knew it. After a second viewing, this episode already appeals to me a lot more than the first time and I predict that once I finally have those DVDs and the chance to sit down with them at leisure, I will come to actually love it.

 

There are some really good scenes in this. I love the whole part inside Sherlock's mind after he is shot. That was great. I love the beginning, the whole drugs episode (yay! I wanted to see that since episode one and they didn't chicken out after all, they let him get properly loaded!). The fake engagement was wonderful. Who said the sociopath was dead? Was that me? So sorry. I take it all back. And I must say (wonder whether anybody will agree with me there...) I really love "the last conversation" between Sherlock and John. I adore scenes like that. Understated, constrained, very well acted, no big gestures, no impressive external drama. And still very touching.

 

And oh my god, the bit where Sherlock says "Merry Christmas" while shooting Magnussen. Oh my god. I know I'm not supposed to be happy about a person being murdered in cold blood, but this is not a person, is it. It's Magnussen, probably the most disgusting creature I have ever encountered on a screen. Mary was absolutely right about him. Besides, this is lovely fiction, where one can be happy about someones demise without the slightest remorse. Ew, the scene where he plays with John's face. Only the fact that Sherlock shoots him shortly afterwards will ever reconcile me to that.

 

As for Mary. I totally agree that it just wasn't at all believable when she turned out to be an assassin. It really does not fit the way the character is played before or after. And I had hoped her secret would have been more interesting. But oh well. I feel very sorry for her, actually. Who knows why she worked as a killer. I'm sure it was not exactly her dream career. And I think the way they (well, John actually) humiliated her at the Baker St flat after he found out was horrible. Understandable, but still horrible. The poor woman. I for one was happy when John decided to burn the information and just accept the fact that he loves her. I still like Mary. Some secrets just aren't interesting. They are sad and nasty and best burned and forgotten.

 

Now my only real bugbear is Moriarty returning from the dead. I mean, there is hope that he still is dead and someone is just using his image for whatever reason, but I do suspect they simply want to bring back the character and the actor because he was so popular. Maybe it's for the best. Compared to Magnussen, Moriarty is kind of lovable.

[Cheerio1021]

Watched the goodbye scene again and I still don't like it.

 

John does the following:

- Says he can't think of anything to say

- Tells Sherlock tersely: "The game is over."

- Inquires almost casually about where Sherlock's going

- Acts almost like he doesn't even want to look at Sherlock.

- Reiterates "We're not naming our daughter after you."

- Shakes Sherlock's hand and watches him walk away

 

And that's it.  John is quite chilly in this scene.  No real emotion, not even the sense that he's choking back a lot of emotion.  I mean, I know John's supposed to be stoic, but between the dialogue and the way Martin Freeman plays him in this scene, it's almost like he doesn't even give a $#*% that his friendship with Sherlock is over and he's never even going to see his best friend again.

 

John doesn't even say "Thank you" to the man who just gave John's assassin wife a fresh start -- the same wife who nearly killed Sherlock -- and who now has to get on a plane and disappear because of it.

 

I'm not saying I'd expect a big slobbering emotional hug-fest, but really?  Is this the John we know?  The one who made the speech at Sherlock's grave?  Who called him the wisest and best man he'd ever known?

 

You can certainly see emotion coming from Sherlock in this scene -- and I think Cumberbatch plays it beautifully -- but it's as if it just bounces off of John.  I don't get the sense that John is returning any of it.

 

I don't know what to make of it.  Like I said, it's a combination of the dialogue and Martin Freeman's acting (and of course how the scene was edited), so the coldness must have been intentional.  I just don't understand it in the context of this episode or their relationship.

[T.o.b.y]

Watched the goodbye scene again and I still don't like it.

 

John is quite chilly in this scene.  No real emotion, not even the sense that he's choking back a lot of emotion.  I mean, I know John's supposed to be stoic, but between the dialogue and the way Martin Freeman plays him in this scene, it's almost like he doesn't even give a $#*% that his friendship with Sherlock is over and he's never even going to see his best friend again.

 

Well, it's really impossible to argue about this, because it's so very open to interpretation. I really see why you got this impression.

 

My own was a bit different. First of all, I assumed that John had no idea Sherlock was going to his death. None at all. I also assume that, after all the experience he has had with his friend, he didn't / couldn't believe on some level he was really going to disappear for ever. Not Sherlock.

 

Then, John had been prepared for this moment. He had also probably feared worse for his friend. So there was relief at work that he would actually remain a free man.

 

And I suppose that after all that drama with Mary, he was emotionally kind of spent and exhausted.

 

To me, he doesn't come across as chilly. More like dazed. As if he can't really realize what is happening. I think he is touched and sad non the less. I love how he says he can't think of anything to say. And the gruff remarks (about the naming of his daughter, for example) might be a John-ish defense against emotion which he just wouldn't feel up to facing at that time. Especially in front of Mycroft Holmes and a bunch of other people.

 

No, don't forget, it takes a bomb scare to make John Watson open up...

[Cheerio1021]

 

Watched the goodbye scene again and I still don't like it.

 

John is quite chilly in this scene.  No real emotion, not even the sense that he's choking back a lot of emotion.  I mean, I know John's supposed to be stoic, but between the dialogue and the way Martin Freeman plays him in this scene, it's almost like he doesn't even give a $#*% that his friendship with Sherlock is over and he's never even going to see his best friend again.

 

 

To me, he doesn't come across as chilly. More like dazed. As if he can't really realize what is happening. I think he is touched and sad non the less. I love how he says he can't think of anything to say. And the gruff remarks (about the naming of his daughter, for example) might be a John-ish defense against emotion which he just wouldn't feel up to facing at that time. Especially in front of Mycroft Holmes and a bunch of other people.

 

 

 

You're absolutely right that's it's very subjective.  And I want to believe your interpretation that he was dazed, touched, sad, and covering up some strong emotions.  I just wish the show (and/or Freeman) had given me more reason to believe that.  Because personally, it's hard for me to see past the chilliness.

 

I love John Watson and I'm not angry with him like some fans seem to be today, but wow, it's hard to have that be the last we see of John interacting with Sherlock for two years.  I much preferred the graveside speech.

 

Like you, I assume John doesn't know Sherlock is going to his death.*  Pretty clear Sherlock doesn't want him to know.  Still, he had to have heard Sherlock tell Mycroft that it's the last time Sherlock is going to talk to John Watson.  So in John's mind it should be their last conversation. Of course, as you say, John's seen Sherlock resurrect himself before.  Still, if that's the reason for his apparent indifference in the scene, I wish they'd made it a little clearer what's going on in John's head.  They certainly spent enough time on the workings of John's head in the rest of the episode.

 

* Of course, who really believes Mycroft would let Sherlock die?

 

 

[KaeEm]

 

To me, he doesn't come across as chilly. More like dazed. As if he can't really realize what is happening. I think he is touched and sad non the less. I love how he says he can't think of anything to say. And the gruff remarks (about the naming of his daughter, for example) might be a John-ish defense against emotion which he just wouldn't feel up to facing at that time. Especially in front of Mycroft Holmes and a bunch of other people.

 

 

 

No, don't forget, it takes a bomb scare to make John Watson open up...

 

 

I totally agree with you there. 

 

To me his refusal to call his daughter Sherlock was his way of saying "there's only room for one Sherlock in my life and I refuse to believe that we're never going to meet again."

 

To me he didn't seem chilly at all, just emotianally drained, at a loss for words and just very human. 

 

I see their seemingly joking interaction a) as a means to keep up the facade in front of Mycroft and the security people and as both of them trying to be strong for the other and not causing him more distress than that whole situation contains already. 

 

I just went back to watch that scene again and after Sherlock sadly answers John's question of what's going to happen after six months with "who knows", John's actually really close to losing it, trying to hide how upset he is by looking away for quite a long time and fighting hard to keep control when looking back at Sherlock. That's when Sherlock decides to lighten the mood with his "Sherlock is girl's name" joke and John's laugh after that actually just kills me. So desperate and yet relieved that Sherlock as given him something to hold on to, something to keep him from breaking apart right there. I think the acting is sublime on both ends there and it kills me emotionally much more than any soap-opra stile emotianl outburst that would have been very out of character for both John and Sherlock.