How would you fix "His Last Vow"?

[Carol the Dabbler]

Zain, before you give up entirely, you might have a look at the Christmas Special and maybe even Series 4. If it's primarily this one episode that's put you off, please consider that it may prove to have been an exception.
 

 

Meanwhile, HLV has picked up more awards than any other episode, including 7 Emmys this last awards show - including one for Moffat and one for Cumberbatch.

*ahem* ... and one for Freeman.

 
I get the feeling that one major concern for a lot of people (sometimes including me) is that HLV could be the beginning of a trend.  My more optimistic impression, on the other hand, is that this episode shows Sherlock at the very bottom of his game, with no choice except to "cheat."  Maybe the near-death scene was supposed to be an analogy to that.  But just as he then struggled back to life, I expect him to struggle back to being at the top of his game once again.  After all, haven't we repeatedly heard Moftiss say, "He's still the smartest man in the room"? I can't believe that anybody's Sherlock Holmes would permanently cease relying on his intellect.

[sittything]

 

I am sorry to have made you sad.

 

 

No need to apologize. This is not about me.     I just still love this show so much, and I know how disappointed I would be/will be if that ever changes, so it makes me sad to see others unhappy about the direction it has gone.  But thanks for sharing what it is that has changed things for you.

 

But you can always remember the good 'ole days...

 

 

 

[sfmpco]

 

*ahem* ... and one for Freeman.

 

 

Ah yes, of course.  HLV - work all the boys can be proud of!

[Arcadia]

And Moffat and Gatiss had S3 planned out well in advance of ever having written it, just as they have S4 planned out fully and probably have a pretty good outline for S5.  Beyond that I actually doubt there will be further episodes.  Call it a hunch.

Rats, I have the same hunch. Although I wouldn't rule out a special or two when BC & MF are too old to be hot property anymore. Which could be next week or 40 years from now, actually.... :p

[sfmpco]

 

And Moffat and Gatiss had S3 planned out well in advance of ever having written it, just as they have S4 planned out fully and probably have a pretty good outline for S5.  Beyond that I actually doubt there will be further episodes.  Call it a hunch.

Rats, I have the same hunch. Although I wouldn't rule out a special or two when BC & MF are too old to be hot property anymore. Which could be next week or 40 years from now, actually.... :P

 

 

To paraphrase Moriarty, "It can't go on.  It just can't."

[Arcadia]

 

Meanwhile, HLV has picked up more awards than any other episode, including 7 Emmys this last awards show - including one for Moffat and one for Cumberbatch.

*ahem* ... and one for Freeman.

 

 

I get the feeling that one major concern for a lot of people (sometimes including me) is that HLV could be the beginning of a trend.  My more optimistic impression, on the other hand, is that this episode shows Sherlock at the very bottom of his game, with no choice except to "cheat."  Maybe the near-death scene was supposed to be an analogy to that.  But just as he then struggled back to life, I expect him to struggle back to being at the top of his game once again.  After all, haven't we repeatedly heard Moftiss say, "He's still the smartest man in the room"? I can't believe that anybody's Sherlock Holmes would permanently cease relying on his intellect.

Same here. Although I can't imagine what this special will have to do with that, I suspect we're going to have to wait another year or two.... *sigh*.

[sfmpco]

Let's hope we don't have to wait too terribly long, but that DR. STRANGE is going to take up a lot of his future.

[Carol the Dabbler]

 

*ahem* ... and one for Freeman.

 

Ah yes, of course.  HLV - work all the boys can be proud of!

 

And I assume that they are!  :D

 

I have my doubts, though, that the seven Emmys were strictly for HLV in any real sense.  For one thing, Hollywood seems to feel that newcomers should "pay their dues" before being allowed to win any major awards.  There are exceptions, of course, but in general one's first effort isn't likely to win.  Also, the other two episodes of S3 were not even submitted for consideration.  So I strongly suspect that most people were actually voting for a sort of cumulative effect, meaning that in a very real sense the awards were won by Episodes 1 through 9.

[sfmpco]

Perhaps, but we'll see what S4 brings.  More awards and accolades?  Likely.

[joanneta1]

 

I know your advice was directed at joanneta, but actually, I think I should heed it. Because you showed me that I fell out of love with the show when you asked what inge particularly liked. Most of what I stayed for is not there anymore.

:( Would a flower help?

 

Dear Arcadia, in real life, you, Carol, Toby, Zain, smpfco and Boton must be some of the nicest people it would be my privilege to meet. Your thoughtful, kind remarks show your inner strengths and basic good nature.

However, in the matter of HLV a flower is no help against the absolute horror of their last meeting with Magnussen, nor the act of desperation itself. It should never have come to this, nor to Mary's being a former CIA assassin. Those are the cheap thrills that earned them the awards.

I can watch that episode far fewer times than any other one, even TBB which was the absolute rock bottom for me before HLV. I don't particularly like everything on this show, but it has some great moments. What I like about it is that through a younger, reasonably personable main character a lot of young people are discovering the ACD world and, hopefully, getting interested enough to explore it. If we can discuss things in class, I can use Sherlock to improve those young people's skills in many directions. But I cannot delete it from my brain, since I have a sort of photographic memory myself.

So, there will always be the moment of  his grabbing that improbably smuggled-in gun, and the gunning down of a defenceless man for no other reason than the scriptwriter could not or would not be bothered to find another story arc.

Also, the patched-up moment of release in the airport scene cannot make up for the sheer silent suffering Sherlock has to go through in the whole airport sequence and on the plane.

However, I reserve final judgement until Series 4.

[sfmpco]

Yes, I think we're all nice on here.  We disagree but some of the in-depth analysis and discussions are brilliant.  Stay with us, Zain.  

[joanneta1]

If it was so sure about itself, it missed the mark with The Imitation Game, didn't it?  Fine at the festivals, failure at the actual awards.  No one can guarantee a hit. No one.  The studios have colossal failures all the time.  If a film costs $100 million to make, the film must generate at least $300 million or more just to break even.  My belief is not shattered in any regard.  I do understand how the business works.

 

And Moffat and Gatiss had S3 planned out well in advance of ever having written it, just as they have S4 planned out fully and probably have a pretty good outline for S5.  Beyond that I actually doubt there will be further episodes.  Call it a hunch.

 

So enjoy it while you can.

I like the Imitation Game just fine, and I loved The Tourist, but the winning of awards is not their main concern, the box office is, or am I wrong? Look at Spielberg and Lukas and their overall contribution to the film world. Spielberg finally managed to get recognition through Schindler's List, but that may be for the same reason why James Cagney had to learn Yiddish to negotiate with the Warner brothers.

 

[sfmpco]

I have my reservations about TIG, but I'll not be sharing them.  They would be in large the same reservations I had about THE FIFTH ESTATE.

[Zain]

Zain, before you give up entirely, you might have a look at the Christmas Special and maybe even Series 4. If it's primarily this one episode that's put you off, please consider that it may prove to have been an exception.

 

Yes, I think we're all nice on here.  We disagree but some of the in-depth analysis and discussions are brilliant.  Stay with us, Zain.  

 

Oh, I did not intend to make it sound as if I was packing  my back and leaving for the New World.

I am quite fond of this forum (especially the people!), and I will definitely stick around. There's general discussion as well, and I am still familiar with the 'old seasons'.

But I don't think I'll give the Christmas special or the fourth season a go. Since HLV was aired, I never was particularly keen on S4 anyway. Unlike with S3, ironically.

I think we've gone quite off track, haven't we? You should be discussion how to "fix" HLV here. Shame on you!  ;)

[Arcadia]

Oh, I did not intend to make it sound as if I was packing  my back and leaving for the New World.

I am quite fond of this forum (especially the people!), and I will definitely stick around. There's general discussion as well, and I am still familiar with the 'old seasons'.

But I don't think I'll give the Christmas special or the fourth season a go. Since HLV was aired, I never was particularly keen on S4 anyway. Unlike with S3, ironically.

I think we've gone quite off track, haven't we? You should be discussion how to "fix" HLV here. Shame on you!  ;)

Apropos of nothing .... Zain, I just this moment realized what your avatar picture says!

[Inge l-w]

Zain, if you think we went off track on this one, you should see what we did to the Christmas Special filming news one, but in my defence, I can quote Sherlock when their mother catches them smoking: "It was Mycroft", in this case sfmpco. We nearly scared our lovely young member from the Netherlands, Sarina, with our speculation.

[joanneta1]

Oh, I resolved the whole thing quite satisfactorily in my mind, let my friends know about how it can be done, and therefore, I shall follow Sherlock's advice to John in the Great Game: "Better still, stop inflicting your opinions on the world".

[Inge l-w]

All very fine, but there has been some discussion previously on this thread about it having been yet another ploy worked out with the help of Mycroft. And in the sequence before they start for the helicopter, he checks up on everybody's breathing, EXCEPT Mycroft's which would have been easy to do as he comes closest to him in order to abstract the laptop. Perhaps because Mycroft wasn't really drugged? Or another little hole in this debacle?

[J.P.]

Dear Boton, the whole problem is not only the morality of the particular action, it is its gratuitousness. Sherlock should never have had to resort to such an act, which brings him down to the ordinary, as Moriarty taunted him.

Still being in my bitter irony interpretation modus: Maybe that was the point of HLV. 

[Arcadia]

All very fine, but there has been some discussion previously on this thread about it having been yet another ploy worked out with the help of Mycroft. And in the sequence before they start for the helicopter, he checks up on everybody's breathing, EXCEPT Mycroft's which would have been easy to do as he comes closest to him in order to abstract the laptop. Perhaps because Mycroft wasn't really drugged? Or another little hole in this debacle?

Oh no, he checked Mycroft's breath too. I just saw a picture of it yesterday, which I can't find now, of course. Not that it proves anything one way or the other, maybe he was just (as usual) trying to fool John.

 

I would love to see his mother get ahold of him after this incident!

[J.P.]

Sadly, she couldn't. At least there had to be bars between them. 

[sfmpco]

Okay, back to topic.  There is still this huge debate here regarding Sherlock killing Magnussen.  Having just watched MAN OF STEEL, I can assure you that the Superman fans (SPOILER ALERT!!) are having the same issue with their superhero, because Superman doesn't kill people, not even the bad buys.  Except in this movie.  He has to kill one.  He has to make a choice to kill one or to see innocent lives taken.  So he does the unthinkable for his character, and when it is done, he screams in agony over his decision.  There was no negotiation possible.  There was no other way out for him to deal with this bad guy.  That has to really bug the Superman fandom.

 

That is much the same as with Sherlock and Magnussen.  You can't negotiate with Magnussen.  Not ever, not really.  Sherlock may not have been in a physical battle with Magnussen, but he was in a mental battle.  CAM could never be brought to justice.  Never.  There's no proof any anything.  Even Mycroft can't touch him.  Lives were at stake and Sherlock made a choice to stop the problem by killing. 

 

I was just as shocked as anyone else in the Superman fandom when the bad guy wasn't simply vanquished through the black hole.  That's what I was expecting.  But it didn't make me like him any less.  And I should add, of course, that Superman is just as fictional as Sherlock Holmes.

 

So it doesn't make me like Sherlock any less simply because he took Magnussen's life.  

 

Killing Magnussen is not something that needs to be fixed in HLV.

 

Please don't send too many verbal slings and arrows my way over this one.

[J.P.]

 

So it doesn't make me like Sherlock any less simply because he took Magnussen's life.  

 

Killing Magnussen is not something that needs to be fixed in HLV.

 

Please don't send too many verbal slings and arrows my way over this one.

 

Here, have a helmet: 

I'm with you.

[T.o.b.y]

That is much the same as with Sherlock and Magnussen.  You can't negotiate with Magnussen. 

 

Very true. I think Mary must have tried to, and she ended up drawing her gun as well (I still think if she'd broken in just to kill, he would never have known what hit him). Sherlock certainly tried multiple times. No use. Magnussen is like those horrible bullies one suffers from in school. They are made up of wanton cruelty, believe firmly that might makes right and are not the slightest bit open to reason. It is pointless to try and make them understand how much they hurt their victims, because they lack so much empathy that even if you put them through the exact same pain, they would not be able to compare that to another person's experience and modify their actions accordingly. The only options you have are run from them, distract them by throwing someone else in their path or get backup and fight. Dirty.

 

Of course real life tormentors are still human and have complex personalities, often with a ton of issues of their very own. And some outgrow their viciousness and become just regular old assholes or even develop some kind of emotional maturity. I think what they did with Magnussen was take only the bully traits of a dozen people, eliminate anything else, turn it all up to eleven and create a character that is just six feet (or more, he's pretty tall) of pure evil.

 

Maybe that is one reason why I find his being shot by Sherlock so deeply satisfying. I always tried to forgive and understand the people who gave me a hard time. I tried not to hate them back, to to just ignore what I could and keep myself safe to the best of my ability. But that is very hard work. You get extremely tired and worn out, and I cried a lot growing up, and sometimes I'd get so angry, especially if it was a friend who was the target, and not myself. Of course I sometimes wished it was all that simple: Me, good. Them, evil. I can hate them all I want and act accordingly. In real life, that is not an option. But lovely fiction lets us live all sorts of fantasies, good and malicious, without any harm to the real world. Isn't it wonderful. I bet if it weren't for fictional heroes killing fictional baddies, I'd be a lot more of a real "psychopath".

[Inge l-w]

Yeah, right, so we are offered a Victorian hodge-podge, since they have said it does not come from any particular stories, as they are still refining the potential S4, because the three main thorny points, quite apart from plugging all those holes and threads left dangling in HLV are

A) Mary and the baby

B ) Moriarty

C) a Royal pardon that would not be crime-specific as it normally is, but that would cover the whole penal code.

At this point, I just hope it will not prove as disappointing as S3, explaining away the Fall in such a manner, making him the best man as an elaborate joke and forcing him to resort to killing, not to mention what they have made John go through since the end of S2! Fine way of dealing with your supposedly favourite fictional characters!