Mary Morstan

[Arcadia]

...That being said, there seems to be an awful lot in series 3 that I've had to really try hard to believe in, or to overlook, for the sake of keeping sane and enjoying the show. Did Mofftiss just go off the deep end? On the other hand, it passes the time... Aha, maybe that's their new weapon to keep us hooked! Get us frustrated enough that we can't leave the show alone

 

You know, I had that very same thought a few days ago.

 

Mary did not show sadness because she is used to put a tough face to the world and she already organized the Moriarty GIF :P

I've had that thought as well. :P

 

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Love that pic Arcadia.

[Carol the Dabbler]

... there seems to be an awful lot in series 3 that I've had to really try hard to believe in, or to overlook, for the sake of keeping sane and enjoying the show. Did Mofftiss just go off the deep end?

 

That seems as good an explanation as any!  ;)

 

But yeah, I've worked really hard to find interpretations of HLV that allow me to keep enjoying the show.  Don't get me wrong, I don't think I'm sugarcoating anything or ignoring certain scenes.  I'm simply giving everyone the benefit of the doubt, which is actually not hard to do, given all the unanswered questions that the episode raises.

[sfmpco]

I think the Doctor Who fans probably feel the same way.

[Carol the Dabbler]

A know a couple of ardent Doctor Who fans who will no longer watch the new episodes, only what they call Classic Who.

 

[sfmpco]

And here I sit with still basically no real clue about Doctor Who.  I've seen one episode and wasn't sure what the fuss was about.

[Arcadia]

I think the Doctor Who fans probably feel the same way.

 

A know a couple of ardent Doctor Who fans who will no longer watch the new episodes, only what they call Classic Who.

What are their objections, do you know?

 

I haven't seen enough of the new ones to form much of an impression, other than the Doctor is more manic than I remembered (being only familiar with the Tom Baker version.)

[T.o.b.y]

I think that's what Moftiss did well with the character of Mary, love her or hate her.  She understood at some level that marrying John was tantamount to marrying Sherlock.  Not in a threesome or sexual sort of way, but simply that loving John romantically and sexually and all the other ways you love a spouse carries with it the agreement that she would also love John's "bond" with Sherlock.  By making Sherlock and Mary into friends very quickly, they avoided that stupid trope of the jealous girlfriend/spouse that would have destroyed our favorite show.

 

Judging by some of the fan fiction out there, a lot of people are desperately trying to add that trope...

 

But I agree with you here, of course. In fact, I've come to appreciate what they did with Mary all the more after having watched and read a lot of other things these past few days and realized how the usual "bromance" story seems to require the women in the mens' lives to either die, be married to someone else, dump them or be revealed as murderous, treacherous femme fatales. (Okay: exception Rosie Cotton, but by the time she and Sam can be together, the story is over and Frodo leaves.) Of course one could argue that Mary falls in the latter category and may be killed off in the future, too, but I do think that's not quite it. I love that Mary and John really are important as a couple, and seriously so, she's not just around to provide sex and prove he's not gay. You (well, I...) really get a sense of them as "true lovers", and still the focus remains on John and Sherlock.

 

Sherlock and Mary though... I don't find their instant friendship quite believable. I suppose that wasn't the intention, but it still seems forced to me. I do think they genuinely approve of each other and share a certain mutual fondness, but he's way too polite to her compared to how he behaves around people usually, and she keeps shooting little darts and arrows his way that may be just playful - and may not. She calls him "his nibs" when he's not around, and in his mind, she's "that wife". It's a fascinating relationship for sure.

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

I think the Doctor Who fans probably feel the same way.

 

A know a couple of ardent Doctor Who fans who will no longer watch the new episodes, only what they call Classic Who.

What are their objections, do you know?

 

I haven't seen enough of the new ones to form much of an impression, other than the Doctor is more manic than I remembered (being only familiar with the Tom Baker version.)

 

Well, of course Tom Baker is the real Doctor.   ;)   Their objections?  Basically Steven Moffat.  At first, they thought he was doing a really nice job, bringing the show back to its roots, they said -- but then the more recent episodes have been lots of noise and shock value and little real substance.  (Need I add that they were not surprised by Series 3 of Sherlock?)

 

I think that's what Moftiss did well with the character of Mary, love her or hate her.  She understood at some level that marrying John was tantamount to marrying Sherlock.  Not in a threesome or sexual sort of way, but simply that loving John romantically and sexually and all the other ways you love a spouse carries with it the agreement that she would also love John's "bond" with Sherlock.  By making Sherlock and Mary into friends very quickly, they avoided that stupid trope of the jealous girlfriend/spouse that would have destroyed our favorite show.

 

Judging by some of the fan fiction out there, a lot of people are desperately trying to add that trope...

I suspect those are the people who didn't want Mary joining the show in the first place.

 

Sherlock and Mary though... I don't find their instant friendship quite believable. I suppose that wasn't the intention, but it still seems forced to me. I do think they genuinely approve of each other and share a certain mutual fondness, but he's way too polite to her compared to how he behaves around people usually, and she keeps shooting little darts and arrows his way that may be just playful - and may not. She calls him "his nibs" when he's not around, and in his mind, she's "that wife". It's a fascinating relationship for sure.

I find it believable as a sort of big sister / little brother relationship, which would probably be the most natural pattern for each of them to fall into. Besides, it's easy to think the worst of someone when they've just shot you!

[Arcadia]

 

 

A know a couple of ardent Doctor Who fans who will no longer watch the new episodes, only what they call Classic Who.

What are their objections, do you know?

 

I haven't seen enough of the new ones to form much of an impression, other than the Doctor is more manic than I remembered (being only familiar with the Tom Baker version.)

 

 

Well, of course Tom Baker is the real Doctor.   ;)   Their objections?  Basically Steven Moffat.  At first, they thought he was doing a really nice job, bringing the show back to its roots, they said -- but then the more recent episodes have been lots of noise and shock value and little real substance.  (Need I add that they were not surprised by Series 3 of Sherlock?)

 

Okay, thanks. Hm, now I feel like I really need to make more of an effort to see it, for some reason!

[Carol the Dabbler]

In case it's impressionistic, you mean?  :D

[Boton]

 

 

 

I didn't even realise that this is how I feel, but I see it now. It does feel like Sherlock 'gives way' for Mary in John's life. It was the same in The Sign of Three on several occasions. He was retreating. Of course there's a big difference, too... In 'Sign' he just took a step away from the couple (neatly symbolised by the physical step outside the church), because he didn't have much of a choice, really. In 'Vow' he is stepping out of their lives :( and this deliberately.

 

 

Oh, Gad, really?  You had to go there?  

 

You're right, of course.  All those subtle things in ToS, like Sherlock stepping out of the picture (literally), sending John and Mary off to dance saying they can't all dance together, and leaving the reception hall with them still inside, all are precursors to him feeling like he should deliberately step out of their lives in HLV.  Sigh.  Now I have to think about that for the rest of the day.

 

It's kind of a neat thing from a storytelling viewpoint, though, that Moftiss did by doing this.  I know in the RDJ films you get the impression that Holmes's reaction to Watson's marriage is petulance, but here it is more one of self-sacrifice blended with maybe just a bit of feeling sorry for himself or having a moment of low self-esteem.  That's kind of a risk to take with Sherlock Holmes, but it seems to work.

[Arcadia]

 

I didn't even realise that this is how I feel, but I see it now. It does feel like Sherlock 'gives way' for Mary in John's life. It was the same in The Sign of Three on several occasions. He was retreating. Of course there's a big difference, too... In 'Sign' he just took a step away from the couple (neatly symbolised by the physical step outside the church), because he didn't have much of a choice, really. In 'Vow' he is stepping out of their lives :( and this deliberately.

 

Oh, Gad, really?  You had to go there?  

 

You're right, of course.  All those subtle things in ToS, like Sherlock stepping out of the picture (literally), sending John and Mary off to dance saying they can't all dance together, and leaving the reception hall with them still inside, all are precursors to him feeling like he should deliberately step out of their lives in HLV.  Sigh.  Now I have to think about that for the rest of the day....

 

 

Okay, now that you two have gone and broken everyone's hearts, I feel obligated to offer a little snippet of cheer -- Sherlock may have stepped away from them at the wedding, but he also said he'd always be there for them, so he wasn't planning to go very far. And in HLV he sees that John's restless and "recruits" him into another adventure ... so again, he's not stepping completely away. It may be the end of an era, but that doesn't mean there won't be another era, or that the next era won't be just as good. Just .... different.

 

Ta da!

 

Signed, Mary Sunshine

[petergirl]

Hi here!

I guess that I can make clear it about Magnusses's files for Mary. It's russian language.

Russian fans did the analyze.

http://sherlock-series.livejournal.com/1114742.html

The result:

А.Г.Р.А. (A.G.R.A.) ПРЕДСТАВЛЯТЬ (present/introduce)

этот (that) препарат (drug/agent) нельзя (must not/forbidden)
убийцы (murderers/killers). ЛЮБОЙ (Any)

ШАН (?) (may be it's the part of the word Шантаж (blackmail)

I'm personally easy read АГРА, представлять, препарат, любой.

 

 

[sfmpco]

I'll take your word for it!

[Carol the Dabbler]

Hi here!

I guess that I can make clear it about Magnusses's files for Mary. It's russian language.

Russian fans did the analyze.

http://sherlock-series.livejournal.com/1114742.html

The result:

А.Г.Р.А. (A.G.R.A.) ПРЕДСТАВЛЯТЬ (present/introduce)

этот (that) препарат (drug/agent) нельзя (must not/forbidden)

убийцы (murders). ЛЮБОЙ (Any)

ШАН (?) (may be it's the part of the word Шантаж (blackmail)

I'm personally easy read АГРА, представлять, препарат, любой.

 

 

 

Thanks, petergirl -- and welcome to Sherlock Forum! 

 

I see that you joined the forum a couple of months ago.  Congratulation on your first post!  I hope we'll hear more from you -- and you don't need to wait till you've got another big thing like that.

[T.o.b.y]

Welcome, petergirl!

 

I wonder... is there actually a Mary / AGRA file? I mean, supposedly all Magnussen had existed only in his mind palace and he merely pictured it as files. But if she is ex-CIA, of course there would be some kind of official documents on her that he could have somehow gained access to. Hm....

[Arcadia]

Hi here!

I guess that I can make clear it about Magnusses's files for Mary. It's russian language.

Russian fans did the analyze.

http://sherlock-series.livejournal.com/1114742.html

The result:

А.Г.Р.А. (A.G.R.A.) ПРЕДСТАВЛЯТЬ (present/introduce)

этот (that) препарат (drug/agent) нельзя (must not/forbidden)

убийцы (murders). ЛЮБОЙ (Any)

ШАН (?) (may be it's the part of the word Шантаж (blackmail)

I'm personally easy read АГРА, представлять, препарат, любой.

Hey, thank you Petergirl! And welcome to the forum, I hope you'll be able to keep sharing with us!

[sfmpco]

Of course there wouldn't be anything there so translatable that we would ever get anything new on Mary.  The show's creators know we will freeze every frame in our relentless search for clues.  However, it looks as if Magnussen is reading the Russian.

 

"Your accent is currently English but you are not."

 

Could she be Russian? Ex-KGB, ex-CIA...

[petergirl]

Thank you all for the welcoming me  . Though I'm more reader then writer.

 

Of course, they cannot give us any clues. Just the curious thing. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Thank you all for the welcoming me  . Though I'm more reader then writer.

 

Of course, they cannot give us any clues. Just the curious thing. 

 

Yup.  That's why we're all here -- being curious together!

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Of course there wouldn't be anything there so translatable that we would ever get anything new on Mary. The show's creators know we will freeze every frame in our relentless search for clues. However, it looks as if Magnussen is reading the Russian.

 

"Your accent is currently English but you are not."

 

Could she be Russian? Ex-KGB, ex-CIA...

Ex-KGB would be interesting. Almost makes her seem darker than being ex-CIA.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Or both?  Or a double-mole?

 

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Or both?  Or a double-mole?

 

I like those possibilities as well.  Will be interesting to see what Moftiss fleshes out with her character.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I suspect she's gonna turn out to be a highly-conflicted good guy.  But we'll see . . . .