Mary Morstan

[sfmpco]

 

Another thing I really, really hope does not become a trend in Sherlock is these James Bond tendencies that are suddenly showing up. Please, please, no, I do not, not, not want to see Sherlock as some sort of action hero/deadly assassin/superspy.

I believe/hope that they purposely used that very Bond-y tone when presenting Anderson's theory, as a hint that what we were seeing wasn't to be taken seriously. And I believe/hope that having Sherlock shoot CAM was meant to show that he had failed for once. And if so, then I believe/hope it was just a coincidence that we saw two examples in just one series, and that'll be pretty much that.

 

 

I agree about no Bondness, but at the same time, Sherlock is a man of action.  He has MI6 qualifications.  He runs across rooftops, dispatches baddies with swords, has pretty good aim with a gun, rides a motorcycle in some challenging ways... there's a case to be made for him being a bit of an action hero.

[Arcadia]

 

Another thing I really, really hope does not become a trend in Sherlock is these James Bond tendencies that are suddenly showing up. Please, please, no, I do not, not, not want to see Sherlock as some sort of action hero/deadly assassin/superspy.

I believe/hope that they purposely used that very Bond-y tone when presenting Anderson's theory, as a hint that what we were seeing wasn't to be taken seriously. And I believe/hope that having Sherlock shoot CAM was meant to show that he had failed for once. And if so, then I believe/hope it was just a coincidence that we saw two examples in just one series, and that'll be pretty much that.

 

Well, there was the Bond reference ("blunt instrument") at the end of HLV, and the motorcycle scene, and Sherlock surveying London from the rooftops, and being sent undercover in Serbia or whatever ... enough to make me nervous. Not to mention the whole host of fanfiction which I can't read because they've got Sherlock whirling around like a ninja, killing baddies right and left. Ugh!!!!!!! As Charlie Brown just intoned on the TV: "I can't stand it. I just can't stand it."

 

Oh yeah, I read the CAM thing as a colossal failure on Sherlock's part -- very un-Bondian, so I have hope.

[Arcadia]

I agree about no Bondness, but at the same time, Sherlock is a man of action.  He has MI6 qualifications.  He runs across rooftops, dispatches baddies with swords, has pretty good aim with a gun, rides a motorcycle in some challenging ways... there's a case to be made for him being a bit of an action hero.

Well, I do my best to believe he dispatched nobody until HLV. :D And MI6 -- I'm sorry, I know you are keen on that for the skill sets it would provide him, but I really dislike the idea of him being aligned in any way with some vast, secretive government beauracracy.

 

Racing around a bit is fun, but really, what makes him special is his brain. I want to see him use it, doggone it. To me that's far more exciting and sexy than gun battles and high speed chases. I know, I'm weird. :p

 

Mary, now ... they can make her some sort of agent, if they want. As long as she doesn't recruit Sherlock.

 

 

[SherlockedCAMPer]

 

I agree about no Bondness, but at the same time, Sherlock is a man of action.  He has MI6 qualifications.  He runs across rooftops, dispatches baddies with swords, has pretty good aim with a gun, rides a motorcycle in some challenging ways... there's a case to be made for him being a bit of an action hero.

Well, I do my best to believe he dispatched nobody until HLV. :D And MI6 -- I'm sorry, I know you are keen on that for the skill sets it would provide him, but I really dislike the idea of him being aligned in any way with some vast, secretive government beauracracy.

 

Racing around a bit is fun, but really, what makes him special is his brain. I want to see him use it, doggone it. To me that's far more exciting and sexy than gun battles and high speed chases. I know, I'm weird. :P

 

Mary, now ... they can make her some sort of agent, if they want. As long as she doesn't recruit Sherlock.

 

 

I think the MI6 comes from what he has already done (Moriarty's network) and would have done if it wasn't for that fun video of of Miss Me?

 

But agreed not too into his being MI6 (although a threat like the last one would not ruin it for me if it happened when the show finally ended assuming the guys weren't half ancient by that point) and Mary can totally go back to being MI6 (or equivalent) as long as she does not recruit Sherlock.

[T.o.b.y]

 

Well, there was the Bond reference ("blunt instrument") at the end of HLV, and the motorcycle scene, and Sherlock surveying London from the rooftops, and being sent undercover in Serbia or whatever ... enough to make me nervous. Not to mention the whole host of fanfiction which I can't read because they've got Sherlock whirling around like a ninja, killing baddies right and left. Ugh!!!!!!! As Charlie Brown just intoned on the TV: "I can't stand it. I just can't stand it."

 

 

Well, I do my best to believe he dispatched nobody until HLV. :D And MI6 -- I'm sorry, I know you are keen on that for the skill sets it would provide him, but I really dislike the idea of him being aligned in any way with some vast, secretive government beauracracy.

 

Racing around a bit is fun, but really, what makes him special is his brain. I want to see him use it, doggone it. To me that's far more exciting and sexy than gun battles and high speed chases. I know, I'm weird. :P

 

Mary, now ... they can make her some sort of agent, if they want. As long as she doesn't recruit Sherlock.

 

I know you don't give much for what the show is based on, but I can't stop my inner geek from pointing out that as the stories went on, Doyle's Holmes did indeed become more and more of an action hero and less of a detective, and that in "His Last Bow", he is indeed a spy and working for the British government during World War I (they pulled him out of retirement for that). It's something I positively loathed Doyle for, though! I refused to read the last story more than once (and that once was just in preparation for series 3, because I knew they were going to use it), and I shook my head over all the fighting and shooting and bla, accusing good old Sir Arthur of having run out of clever ideas and therefore resorting to bang and crash for a cheap buck. (Watching me read at around age 13 to 19 must have been a bit strange).

 

Anyway. I think what I'm saying is that I got over all that a decade ago and that I blame Doyle instead of Moffat and Gatiss and Co., who I still think are just doing a pretty faithful (in their own way... ;)) and clever adaptation of very mixed quality material.

 

Oh what the heck, though, I'm with you. I want the early days, and I want Sherlock to be independent of Mycroft and his secret services and government talking suits, I want him doing brilliant deductions in the Baker Street bachelor emporium and running around London's back alleys occasionally for fresh air instead of being tortured in Serbia. He can cooperate with Lestrade and that should be it as far as involvement with the official forces goes.

 

But nobody's asking our opinion, so... And I've got to concede that I like a few heroic stunts here and there as well. After all, Sherlock isn't Mycroft. He does do leg-work as well as brain-work.

[Arcadia]

I know you don't give much for what the show is based on, but I can't stop my inner geek from pointing out that as the stories went on, Doyle's Holmes did indeed become more and more of an action hero and less of a detective, and that in "His Last Bow", he is indeed a spy and working for the British government during World War I (they pulled him out of retirement for that). It's something I positively loathed Doyle for, though! I refused to read the last story more than once (and that once was just in preparation for series 3, because I knew they were going to use it), and I shook my head over all the fighting and shooting and bla, accusing good old Sir Arthur of having run out of clever ideas and therefore resorting to bang and crash for a cheap buck. (Watching me read at around age 13 to 19 must have been a bit strange).

 

Anyway. I think what I'm saying is that I got over all that a decade ago and that I blame Doyle instead of Moffat and Gatiss and Co., who I still think are just doing a pretty faithful (in their own way... ;)) and clever adaptation of very mixed quality material.

 

Oh what the heck, though, I'm with you. I want the early days, and I want Sherlock to be independent of Mycroft and his secret services and government talking suits, I want him doing brilliant deductions in the Baker Street bachelor emporium and running around London's back alleys occasionally for fresh air instead of being tortured in Serbia. He can cooperate with Lestrade and that should be it as far as involvement with the official forces goes.

 

But nobody's asking our opinion, so... And I've got to concede that I like a few heroic stunts here and there as well. After all, Sherlock isn't Mycroft. He does do leg-work as well as brain-work.

Well heck, I don't see anything in there I disagree with! Now what am I supposed to do? :D

 

A little derring-do is great ... I just don't like the "government agent" angle. It feels all wrong for someone as willfully independent as Sherlock. And yeah, as much as I love the sparring between Sherlock and Mycroft, I really wish Mycroft were not there to conveniently rescue "little brother" from whatever mess he gets into. It diminishes Sherlock. I assume Moftiss will work that out too, eventually. Right after it turns out Mycroft's behind the gif. :p

[sfmpco]

Yes, I believe Mycroft is behind the gif too.  If Mycroft can commandeer all the security cameras in ASIP, what's to stop him from doing the same with all the telly stations?

[Arcadia]

Well, in "real world" it would take someone with Mycroft's kind of connections, wouldn't it? In Sherlock world I guess even Mrs. Hudson could pull it off.
 
We're going to be so disappointed if we turn out to be right! (Assuming, that is, that you, like me, prefer to be surprised. :P )

[sfmpco]

There's gonna be trouble coming, that's all I know...and dark, terrifying story lines (what has been promised!)...all mixed somehow with humor.  

[T.o.b.y]

 

And yeah, as much as I love the sparring between Sherlock and Mycroft, I really wish Mycroft were not there to conveniently rescue "little brother" from whatever mess he gets into. It diminishes Sherlock.

 

Exactly. Precisely. And as long as Mycroft is around, they can get out of any plot mess - the fairy god-brother with his magic umbrella can fix everything and game over.

 

I'd like Sherlock to solve a problem (one of his own problems) that is over Mycroft's head. I have a feeling Mary could turn out to be that kind of problem, if they want her to. (See how neatly I tied back to Mary there? :P )

[Arcadia]

Well done! Here's a no-prize.

[T.o.b.y]

We were thinking about the Mind Palace sequence just now... Isn't it odd how Mary is portrayed there? The whole rest of the show (and the commentary and basically everything anybody involved with the series says) works so hard to establish that Sherlock and Mary are the best of friends almost right from the start, but once we get a glimpse inside his head, what do we see there? Her shooting him again wearing her bride dress, her standing around with a proud, menacing look on her face while he circles her like a predator murmuring her name in not all too friendly a tone, and finally Sherlock's inner Moriarty calls her "that wife".

 

Okay, this is right after she shot him. Still, I'd have expected a bit more... disappointment? Heartbreak? If she really meant that much to him... I would have thought he'd feel more betrayed. But this is Sherlock - nothing is ever as expected with Sherlock.

 

Perhaps this is meant to show that somewhere deep inside, Sherlock knew from the start what was up with Mary, and since he's going down, down, down into his consciousness, he's reaching that part.

 

Anyway, I find Sherlock and Mary's relationship extremely interesting and what I've seen of it isn't like a normal friendship at all. There's affection there on both sides (I think), but their bond is awfully forced and their behavior towards each other ambivalent to say the least. I do wonder how it will continue. All smiles and roses for a while, I guess. But if the writers are consistent, it'll be a bit more than that.

[J.P.]

I think in the mind palace Sherlock had no time to be disappointed. His brain doesn't work with emotions. He needs data.

What is not shown: what happened in the time until Chrismas. It looks like there was not much contact between Sherlock and Watsons. I wonder what filled that time (months, as Mary said, if I remember right)

[T.o.b.y]

I think in the mind palace Sherlock had no time to be disappointed. His brain doesn't work with emotions. He needs data.

 

Doesn't it? But the Mind Palace Sequence is full of emotions: Pain, shock, fear, and Sherlock is desperately trying to get a grip on those, to no avail, ultimately.

 

In the end, it isn't his reasoning that saves him, by the way. He starts out attempting damage control - fall backwards, minimize blood flow, don't go into shock - but he fails. He does go into shock, and he's clinically dead by the time he reaches the padded cell. Nothing worked, not logic, not Redbeard, not even Mycroft was any big help here.

 

Sherlock didn't survive because he cleverly deduced his own murder, but because he simply willed himself back to life in order to protect his friends. I don't know whether that would be possible in reality (who knows what goes in inside dying brains), and I don't care. It makes for a great story. It's very romantic, in the broader sense of the word. And it shows that yes, he has become a good man. If you F***ing cannot die as long as a person you love is in danger, I think you qualify as good.

 

What I think is so sad about the ending of His Last Vow is that Sherlock can get on that plane and leave. Of course it may turn out that he and Mycroft both knew he was going to return, but the way the story is told in the episode, it seems he really thought he was going to his death. And why can he suddenly resign himself to that? Because he thinks he's no longer necessary:

 

"The game is never over, John ... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay."

 

 

 

Mary will keep John in danger. Mary will look after him and make sure he's both safe and entertained. Mary can do that now, because Sherlock got Magnussen off her back and now he can go and die somewhere in Eastern Europe and nobody will miss him much after a while and it's okay. This is the point where I cry and want to shake him and go, no, it's not okay at all, you stupid clueless idiot! 

 

Oh well. Next series, it will probably turn out that it was all fake, like the end of The Reichenbach Fall and I am big old sentimental sucker.

[J.P.]

Oops, sorry, I mixed it up two with the other mind palace scene with Mary, but it was later in the hospital. You are right, Toby.

Well, I shouldn't post while working...

[Boton]

 

I think in the mind palace Sherlock had no time to be disappointed. His brain doesn't work with emotions. He needs data.

 

Doesn't it? But the Mind Palace Sequence is full of emotions: Pain, shock, fear, and Sherlock is desperately trying to get a grip on those, to no avail, ultimately.

 

In the end, it isn't his reasoning that saves him, by the way. He starts out attempting damage control - fall backwards, minimize blood flow, don't go into shock - but he fails. He does go into shock, and he's clinically dead by the time he reaches the padded cell. Nothing worked, not logic, not Redbeard, not even Mycroft was any big help here.

 

Sherlock didn't survive because he cleverly deduced his own murder, but because he simply willed himself back to life in order to protect his friends. I don't know whether that would be possible in reality (who knows what goes in inside dying brains), and I don't care. It makes for a great story. It's very romantic, in the broader sense of the word. And it shows that yes, he has become a good man. If you F***ing cannot die as long as a person you love is in danger, I think you qualify as good.

 

What I think is so sad about the ending of His Last Vow is that Sherlock can get on that plane and leave. Of course it may turn out that he and Mycroft both knew he was going to return, but the way the story is told in the episode, it seems he really thought he was going to his death. And why can he suddenly resign himself to that? Because he thinks he's no longer necessary:

 

"The game is never over, John ... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay."

 

 

 

Mary will keep John in danger. Mary will look after him and make sure he's both safe and entertained. Mary can do that now, because Sherlock got Magnussen off her back and now he can go and die somewhere in Eastern Europe and nobody will miss him much after a while and it's okay. This is the point where I cry and want to shake him and go, no, it's not okay at all, you stupid clueless idiot! 

 

Oh well. Next series, it will probably turn out that it was all fake, like the end of The Reichenbach Fall and I am big old sentimental sucker.

 

 

Yes, this, exactly.

 

A lot of people will argue that a near-death experience profoundly changes you, and I believe it.  (I hope to never find out directly.) I think Sherlock certainly was changed.  Not only did he realize he'd die for his friends, but he got the big take-away from his own subconscious:  You always feel the pain, but you don't have to fear it.  

 

What do we get when Sherlock Holmes stops fearing the pain of emotion?  More than just what we saw on CAM's terrace, I'll bet.  I'll bet this is an entirely different (but still recognizable) Sherlock coming up.  In fact, it could be that the special spending so much time (I assume) in the Victorian era is a bit of a transition to allow us to start seeing a more ACD Holmes than we have previously.

 

How does that play out?  No idea.  I'm not on Moftiss's payroll.  And if I were, I guess I wouldn't be posting here! 

[sherlockandjohn]

 

Racing around a bit is fun, but really, what makes him special is his brain. I want to see him use it, doggone it. To me that's far more exciting and sexy than gun battles and high speed chases. I know, I'm weird. :P

 

If so, join the club! I'll have to agree with Irene Adler about that: Brainy is the new sexy ;)  More importantly, Sherlock's whole character is at its' most enigmatic when he's working on a case, using that brilliant mind of his.

[sherlockandjohn]

We were thinking about the Mind Palace sequence just now... Isn't it odd how Mary is portrayed there? The whole rest of the show (and the commentary and basically everything anybody involved with the series says) works so hard to establish that Sherlock and Mary are the best of friends almost right from the start, but once we get a glimpse inside his head, what do we see there? Her shooting him again wearing her bride dress, her standing around with a proud, menacing look on her face while he circles her like a predator murmuring her name in not all too friendly a tone, and finally Sherlock's inner Moriarty calls her "that wife".

 

Okay, this is right after she shot him. Still, I'd have expected a bit more... disappointment? Heartbreak? If she really meant that much to him... I would have thought he'd feel more betrayed. But this is Sherlock - nothing is ever as expected with Sherlock.

 

Perhaps this is meant to show that somewhere deep inside, Sherlock knew from the start what was up with Mary, and since he's going down, down, down into his consciousness, he's reaching that part.

 

Oooh, interesting. I hadn't thought about it like that. Yes, maybe he did suspect something deep down, but it was repressed for some reason.

 

To me, it seems like Mary in her wedding gown, shooting Sherlock, was indeed an image of Sherlock feeling betrayed... not necessarily for himself; it could also be for John, hence why Sherlock sees her in the gown. It's like he feels betrayed that she married John under false pretenses, and then later ended up shooting him - Sherlock, not John Also, I think it shows fear. In that moment, I think he is afraid of Mary. Later, he looks at her with sort of a judging eye, probably feeling rather cynical towards her, which is why he sees her standing there with a cold expression on her face. The cynicism fades and gives way to sympathy, as he realises that she was trying to hospitalise him, not kill him (kudos for that great explanation, Moffat! ) and that she phoned the ambulance.

 

 

What I think is so sad about the ending of His Last Vow is that Sherlock can get on that plane and leave. Of course it may turn out that he and Mycroft both knew he was going to return, but the way the story is told in the episode, it seems he really thought he was going to his death. And why can he suddenly resign himself to that? Because he thinks he's no longer necessary:

 

"The game is never over, John ... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay."

 

 

Mary will keep John in danger. Mary will look after him and make sure he's both safe and entertained. Mary can do that now, because Sherlock got Magnussen off her back and now he can go and die somewhere in Eastern Europe and nobody will miss him much after a while and it's okay. This is the point where I cry and want to shake him and go, no, it's not okay at all, you stupid clueless idiot! 

 

I didn't even realise that this is how I feel, but I see it now. It does feel like Sherlock 'gives way' for Mary in John's life. It was the same in The Sign of Three on several occasions. He was retreating. Of course there's a big difference, too... In 'Sign' he just took a step away from the couple (neatly symbolised by the physical step outside the church), because he didn't have much of a choice, really. In 'Vow' he is stepping out of their lives :( and this deliberately.

[Arcadia]

Now THIS is about to make me cry! Youse guys.....

[SherlockedCAMPer]

Now THIS is about to make me cry! Youse guys.....

 

Re-reading the above and I'm in the same boat.

[Arcadia]

We were thinking about the Mind Palace sequence just now... Isn't it odd how Mary is portrayed there? The whole rest of the show (and the commentary and basically everything anybody involved with the series says) works so hard to establish that Sherlock and Mary are the best of friends almost right from the start, but once we get a glimpse inside his head, what do we see there? Her shooting him again wearing her bride dress, her standing around with a proud, menacing look on her face while he circles her like a predator murmuring her name in not all too friendly a tone, and finally Sherlock's inner Moriarty calls her "that wife".

 

Okay, this is right after she shot him. Still, I'd have expected a bit more... disappointment? Heartbreak? If she really meant that much to him... I would have thought he'd feel more betrayed. But this is Sherlock - nothing is ever as expected with Sherlock.

 

Perhaps this is meant to show that somewhere deep inside, Sherlock knew from the start what was up with Mary, and since he's going down, down, down into his consciousness, he's reaching that part.

 

Anyway, I find Sherlock and Mary's relationship extremely interesting and what I've seen of it isn't like a normal friendship at all. There's affection there on both sides (I think), but their bond is awfully forced and their behavior towards each other ambivalent to say the least. I do wonder how it will continue. All smiles and roses for a while, I guess. But if the writers are consistent, it'll be a bit more than that.

I think Sherlock does feel betrayed by Mary ... but it shows up more as anger than as hurt ... and then he quickly shifts to deduction mode. He probably feels quite a lot of things, actually, but doesn't want to waste time dwelling on them. More important, for him, to focus on why, and what to do about it. So my instinct is, this isn't a hint at Sherlock's "hidden feelings" or foreshadowing of conflict to come; it's just Sherlock doing what Sherlock does; solving the problem, rather than dwelling on it.

 

The thing about Mary at the airfield; for me, this is another of those "just because we didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen" moments. Maybe I shouldn't, but I sort of take it on faith that Mary had a moment before the airfield where she shed her tears for Sherlock or whatever it is people think she should have done. I don't need to see it to believe it. (Moftiss must love people like me. :P )

[T.o.b.y]

The thing about Mary at the airfield; for me, this is another of those "just because we didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen" moments. Maybe I shouldn't, but I sort of take it on faith that Mary had a moment before the airfield where she shed her tears for Sherlock or whatever it is people think she should have done. I don't need to see it to believe it. (Moftiss must love people like me. :P )

 

Mhm, but I believe it too - at least I think it's probable. Just because she sent him off with a smile and a flippant remark doesn't mean she isn't sad to see him go, or thankful for what he did for her, or sorry she shot him. It's just that this is not the time and place to dwell on all that.

 

Sherlock certainly doesn't seem to mind her way of saying good-bye. I think he'd hate having to deal with any tearful demonstrations.

 

 

[Arcadia]

Exactly.

[sherlockandjohn]

Logically, I get what you are saying, and I've told myself so several times. Hearing it from others makes it seem more realistic, though. On my own I've never been able to convince myself. Not sure I'm convinced now, but it does seem like a lot more likely.

 

See, this is why I keep returning to this forum!

 

That being said, there seems to be an awful lot in series 3 that I've had to really try hard to believe in, or to overlook, for the sake of keeping sane and enjoying the show. Did Mofftiss just go off the deep end? On the other hand, it passes the time... Aha, maybe that's their new weapon to keep us hooked! Get us frustrated enough that we can't leave the show alone

[Shadow Dweller]

Mary did not show sadness because she is used to put a tough face to the world and she already organized the Moriarty GIF :p