Mary Morstan

[T.o.b.y]

Apart from that, she's just a little too sweet and wonderful for someone so calculating at the same time. It's very convincing, and that means she probably makes friends easily. But can they trust her? Apparently not.

 

That scary double personality is actually one of the things I like about Mary. I like her better with her cold killer persona hidden behind the bride's dress and the smiles and the caring attitude than when she was just the cute Mrs Watson. I get a huge kick out of characters like that.

 

No, it just bothers me how she doesn't take Sherlock seriously enough. Like Janine. I can't get used to those ladies treating the great Sherlock Holmes like the human being he actually is.

 

 

[sherlockandjohn]

 

Apart from that, she's just a little too sweet and wonderful for someone so calculating at the same time. It's very convincing, and that means she probably makes friends easily. But can they trust her? Apparently not.

 

That scary double personality is actually one of the things I like about Mary. I like her better with her cold killer persona hidden behind the bride's dress and the smiles and the caring attitude than when she was just the cute Mrs Watson. I get a huge kick out of characters like that.

 

No, it just bothers me how she doesn't take Sherlock seriously enough. Like Janine. I can't get used to those ladies treating the great Sherlock Holmes like the human being he actually is.

 

 

Oh, that's right, she does do that, doesn't she?! I don't like that either, but I sort of just blamed that whole Sherlock-going-human on Mofftiss and on series 3 in general Didn't even consider that it's mostly Mary who makes him appear that way. Is it mostly Mary? I'm not sure. But she does treat him somewhat condescendingly, like a child. Which he is! I just prefer him not to think about it. That's why Sherlock's line about Mary and John having a real baby on the way is bittersweet to me. It's a wonderful, heartwarming scene, but - ugh - I'm not fond of Sherlock knowing himself that well. It's so liberating to see a person with so little self-awareness.

 

I also like the coldness to Mary's character, because it makes her a lot more human than the too-perfect woman from Hearse and Sign. But the flipside of that coin is that I can't be sure I can trust her.

[T.o.b.y]

I also like the coldness to Mary's character, because it makes her a lot more human than the too-perfect woman from Hearse and Sign. But the flipside of that coin is that I can't be sure I can trust her.

 

I kind of enjoy that. It's how I used to feel about Sherlock, but now I'm pretty sure he's on the side of the angels - which I don't mind, because he's coming closer to the original character.

 

 

[BlackButterfly]

I am really confused over Mary and bewildered by what they have done with the character.

I sort of came to the fandom looking for answers..read all the posts here and the linked metas..and am still as confused as ever.

It's sort of ruined much of Sherlock for me this season.

Going into all the medical blah seems pointless..because I feel there was no way at all to predict the outcome..could anyone but Sherlock have survived a shot like that?

The way it was filmed seemed to be a no, it was his will and his mindpalace.

Further the shot itself , if that was a deliberate survival shot, and the first shot 'retired' Mary had fired in years without regular practise then eh..impossible...but ok just tv..but then she does it again with the coin. Discounting the impossibles...

None of the excuses or explanations Sherlock provides for her stand up to scrutiny at all and if it really is coincidence that John just happened to marry an ex agent freelance assassin nurse..hmmmm.

 

Sherlock has always been confused morally and more grey than anything so ok maybe he can understand and forgive whatever happened with Mary, but then to have strong moral principles John brush it all under the carpet and let it go seems very OOC.

Aside from all this , having a serial killer onside and protected even, to some extent by Sherlocks side ,seems to be against canon and the whole grain of the SH storyline turning them into crime solving hypocrites.

I don't feel HLV came to a coherent end at all and there are still so many unresolved isuues that I really hope we will not be supposed to just forget about by S04..but I fear we will!

[Carol the Dabbler]

And thank you for clearing that up, Carol!

Wonder where I heard she dies in childbirth...?

I think that's a pretty common fan conjecture, simply because it was a common reason for young women to die back then. Of course, she could have died from some disease -- tuberculosis, for example. Or she could have divorced Watson -- which would have made him a widower according to the euphemism of that day.

 

... it just bothers me how she doesn't take Sherlock seriously enough. Like Janine. I can't get used to those ladies treating the great Sherlock Holmes like the human being he actually is.

Good thing you're never likely to see me interacting with Sherlock, then!

 

I don't feel HLV came to a coherent end at all and there are still so many unresolved isuues that I really hope we will not be supposed to just forget about by S04..but I fear we will!

My thoughts exactly. I hope we're both wrong, that they do take pity on us and actually explain some things next time around.

[Arcadia]

I am really confused over Mary and bewildered by what they have done with the character.

I sort of came to the fandom looking for answers..read all the posts here and the linked metas..and am still as confused as ever.......

 

......I don't feel HLV came to a coherent end at all and there are still so many unresolved isuues that I really hope we will not be supposed to just forget about by S04..but I fear we will!

That pretty much describes my motivation in coming here, too. I don't know that I'm any less confused but I've more or less come to terms with the things that were bothering me. Like you, I hope to see some sort of resolution (and not more confusion!) in S4.

 

Which is just another way of saying ... you're not alone!

[T.o.b.y]

I am really confused over Mary and bewildered by what they have done with the character.

I sort of came to the fandom looking for answers..read all the posts here and the linked metas..and am still as confused as ever.

 

Sorry... I don't think you'll find any answers around here, more like new cause for bewilderment, because other people always notice even more strange details than yourself, and then you end up pondering their questions as well as your own, plus all the conflicting theories and opinions you've read. For my part, I think that's fun.

 

I doubt this is comfort for you, but there doesn't seem a more appropriate reaction to Mary's story than confusion. So far, I have been able to "explain" most of the writing choices to myself, usually with references to the old stories, but where oh where did the idea come from to make Watson's wife an ex-assassin who is on the run from unnamed enemies, lives under an assumed name and shoots Sherlock Holmes in the chest? I mean, WTF???

 

 

Further the shot itself , if that was a deliberate survival shot, and the first shot 'retired' Mary had fired in years

 

Was it? Who knows how "retired" Mary is, really. She seemed in pretty good shape to me. If I were John, I'd start wondering where she was all those times she went somewhere on her own with the remark "I'll be late for..." And also whether her true motivation for getting Sherlock and John to go on a case together before the wedding wasn't maybe to buy herself some time alone to attend to her business.

 

 

Aside from all this , having a serial killer onside and protected even, to some extent by Sherlocks side ,seems to be against canon and the whole grain of the SH storyline turning them into crime solving hypocrites.

 

Well, but does Sherlock really solve crimes mainly to protect society from serial killers? Wasn't the point something more along the lines of not being bored? Okay, granted, if that were the case, he'd be Moriarty, but... I still don't think his primary goal is to do good deeds or make the world a better place.

 

Besides, is a professional assassin a serial killer? Yes - if a soldier is a mass murderer. I completely understand both definitions, but I think they're not universally accepted. And if Mary really only kills people like Magnussen, well, then she might just be on the side of the angels herself. No, I do not think that killing people in real life is ever okay or that there are killers who are heroes, but then, in real life, there are no actual villains, either.

 

God forbid they go and glorify what Mary does. So far, I don't think they've even tried. But I do see a difference between her, and, say, the cabbie from A Study in Pink.

 

[BlackButterfly]

@T.o.b.y Agreed there are no definite answers , perhaps it is written that way deliberately although having her shoot Sherlock (the hero) with little motive was a literary choice.

 

We really don't know anything about Mary or her past..so IDK and can't judge...however no matter how sympathetic it may be, does the abuse excuse wash? Not with me.

 

Can we call her a serial killer like say Jefferson Hope..you say no....yet it is alleged...both killed for money and/or a so called higher agenda. Freelance assassins or government agents do not choose victims or the agenda.

Moriarty chose for Hope..maybe he chose for Mary?

[Boton]

 

Besides, is a professional assassin a serial killer?...

 

God forbid they go and glorify what Mary does. So far, I don't think they've even tried. But I do see a difference between her, and, say, the cabbie from A Study in Pink.

 

I agree, T.o.b.y, and I think there's an interesting story-telling opportunity here.  I don't know if Moftiss will go this direction.  I don't even know if I want them to.  But if Sherlock solves crimes more or less without a link to or concern for societal impact -- its just the game, the puzzle, the addiction -- then there's room for someone who breaks the law very much because of positive societal impact.  Mary could possibly be willing to take all those wet jobs and freelance assignments just because they will save good people from harm.  (Kind of like the show Burn Notice.)  It would be an interesting counterpoint to Sherlock, but I'm not positive I want the character to go there on screen. 

[T.o.b.y]

From Ariane deVere's transcript of the commentary for His Last Vow:

 

Mark: “We had to think, has Mary herself made a decision to change her life? I mean, she meets John Watson and she thinks he’s a very decent man. Is she actually intending to go straight ...”
Sue: “I think so.”
Mark: “... or is it always murky?”
Steven: “My feeling was [that], a bit like John, she can’t really keep away from that. She fits in with these two blokes because she’s got exactly the same problem. ‘I can spend six months without having an adventure, but not seven.’ What other wife is gonna be sending John out to play with Sherlock, and then tagging along? The way she behaves in ‘The Sign of Three’ is preposterous for a bride at a wedding. She likes that world better.”
Mark: “In my head, though, she’s sort of like Callan. She’s a troubled assassin. I don’t want to think she’s being totally evil.”
Steven: “I think the Callan comparison’s terrific – the idea that she’s done bad things but not because that’s what she wants to do."

 

 

Does anybody know who Callan is?

 

I'm a bit surprised that they use words like "evil" (or in other places "villain") at all for Mary. But I think it's pretty clear that they see her as morally murky, but not thoroughly "bad" in any sense. I'm also getting the impression that they aren't entirely sure themselves about what drives her character. It's fun to know that professional writers feel that way sometimes about their creations, too, because certainly the people my own mind dreams up aren't immediately 100% transparent to me, and I get to know them slowly, they surprise and puzzle me often enough, etc, but, then, I'm a bloody amateur. Who feels quite encouraged and comforted now.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I think even "professional" writers are often surprised by their characters. Their muse gives them an idea, but like Doyle and Sherlock Holmes, one doesn't simply create.....they are led by their creation. It is a learning curve on so many levels.

[Arcadia]

Does anybody know who Callan is?

Only what I read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callan_(TV_series)

[Carol the Dabbler]

Hmm, interesting.  The show was on circa 1970, when Moftiss were kids.  The 1981 reunion episode was titled "Wet Job."  And the least-crucial category of The Section's targets were "People to be put out of action by sending them into divorce courts, bankruptcy, prison or mental homes."  Dare I say that the show could have influenced "Last Vow" (at least subliminally)?

 

The overall tone seems reminiscent of The Prisoner.

 

[Sherlocked/Cumberbatched]

Just my two cents . . . I'm new to the forum. I think of Mary's status, once they found out the truth, is more of "Keep your friends close but your enemies closer". John may have said that he's forgiven her but the look on his face when he hugged her in Sherlock's parent's living room gives me serious pause. I really think the AGRA memory stick he threw in the fire was either a fake or that Sherlock has at least read it. The fact is they both (John and Sherlock) know that they can't do anything about Mary until after the baby's born. Now, canon has it that Mary dies. There's no baby in the canon. Will that make a difference? Will Mary die in childbirth with the baby? Possibly but that's a little darker than the series has been (though Moftiss has said that series 4 will be a lot darker). Or will the baby turn out to not be John's at all (which I'm betting on--the father I think is either Moriarty (if he is indeed still alive) or David)? 

Don't get me wrong--I liked the character at the beginning but she seemed a bit too good to be true and I suspected her of . . . something. After the events in HLV, I just can't bring myself to like her anymore. She shot and at least briefly killed Sherlock and threatened him while he laid helpless in the hospital bed. Is Mary really Moran? Was she sent to kill John but fell in love with him instead? 

There are so many questions to be answered. 

[sfmpco]

I do like the idea that Mary Morstan is actually dead - and buried in Chiswick Cemetery, so technically they already have her killed off.  What else they want to do with the impostor Mary Morstan is another matter entirely.

 

Whatever the case, she and Sherlock have clearly made their peace when she sends him off at the airstrip and he embraces her and kisses her cheek and says, "That's my girl."  Despite everthing, Sherlock has great affection for her.

 

As for the baby being David's, that would be unlikely unless she was cheating on John, and I see that as being even more unlikely.  

[sfmpco]

Just my two cents . . . 

 

BTW, welcome to the forum!

[T.o.b.y]

Just my two cents . . . I'm new to the forum. I think of Mary's status, once they found out the truth, is more of "Keep your friends close but your enemies closer". John may have said that he's forgiven her but the look on his face when he hugged her in Sherlock's parent's living room gives me serious pause. I really think the AGRA memory stick he threw in the fire was either a fake or that Sherlock has at least read it. The fact is they both (John and Sherlock) know that they can't do anything about Mary until after the baby's born. Now, canon has it that Mary dies. There's no baby in the canon. Will that make a difference? Will Mary die in childbirth with the baby? Possibly but that's a little darker than the series has been (though Moftiss has said that series 4 will be a lot darker). Or will the baby turn out to not be John's at all (which I'm betting on--the father I think is either Moriarty (if he is indeed still alive) or David)? 

Don't get me wrong--I liked the character at the beginning but she seemed a bit too good to be true and I suspected her of . . . something. After the events in HLV, I just can't bring myself to like her anymore. She shot and at least briefly killed Sherlock and threatened him while he laid helpless in the hospital bed. Is Mary really Moran? Was she sent to kill John but fell in love with him instead? 

There are so many questions to be answered. 

 

Hey there - welcome!

 

I understand why you can't bring yourself to like Mary any more after His Last Vow - I actually like her character better, now, but that's a matter of taste, and I think you'll find (if haven't done so yet) that quite a few people share your view.

 

I seriously doubt the baby is anybody's but John's. One of the first things I thought when I learned Mary was pregnant and didn't know much about her dark secret except that she had one, was please don't use the old "unfaithful" angle. That's so overused, and it would have been terribly cheesy, if you ask me. Besides, if John and Mary aren't genuinely very much in love, I think the story loses a lot of its depth and tragedy. 

 

Is Mary a Moran figure? Maybe. I wouldn't be at all surprised if it turns out that she was one of Moriarty's many snipers at some time or other. That wouldn't mean she has to be evil, though. Not at all.

 

I do like the idea that Mary Morstan is actually dead - and buried in Chiswick Cemetery, so technically they already have her killed off.  What else they want to do with the impostor Mary Morstan is another matter entirely.

 

Mhm, that's what I think as well. In a way, they already have killed Mary Morstan and this character can be said to be a wholly original one, like Molly, whom they can do what they like with.

 

I am looking forward very much to learning more about her. I can't say I like her, exactly, but I am very interested in her. And Ms Abbington infuses her with a certain charm that I find hard to resist.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I really think the AGRA memory stick he threw in the fire was either a fake or that Sherlock has at least read it.

 

I'm virtually certain that Sherlock has read it.  I mean, he would, wouldn't he?  And that may explain why some people see a slight difference in the writing when it's shown the second time -- perhaps Sherlock kept the original.  But I seriously doubt that John ever read it -- he said he didn't, and he's a lousy liar.  And I doubt that Sherlock would ever tell him what's on it unless absolutely necessary (e.g., to save John's life).

 

I do like the idea that Mary Morstan is actually dead - and buried in Chiswick Cemetery, so technically they already have her killed off.  What else they want to do with the impostor Mary Morstan is another matter entirely.

 

Yes, I suspect that's one reason they introduced that particular plot point, kinda like the choice to give the Star Trek reboot its own alternative timeline.  In both cases, it means they're not tied to canon (though they're entirely free to wink at it whenever they please), so just about anything can happen.

[Arcadia]

I do like the idea that Mary Morstan is actually dead - and buried in Chiswick Cemetery, so technically they already have her killed off.  What else they want to do with the impostor Mary Morstan is another matter entirely.

I remember seeing that conjecture before ... now that I see it again, I like it too. I really have no concern one way or the other about "canon", I've discovered. *ducks behind 221B again* :D

[Arcadia]

Just my two cents . . . I'm new to the forum.........Is Mary really Moran? Was she sent to kill John but fell in love with him instead? 

There are so many questions to be answered.

Welcome, hope you share some more cents! I'm kind of partial to the "Mary was Moran but fell for John" theory myself, although it's a bit overused. But yes, sooooooo many questions to be answered! Woo hoo! Isn't it fun?

[J.P.]

I do like the idea that Mary Morstan is actually dead - and buried in Chiswick Cemetery, so technically they already have her killed off.  What else they want to do with the impostor Mary Morstan is another matter entirely.

 

Hah! Really good point. 

 

There is something that bothers me about the end of HLV: killing CAM was actually not enough to ensure Mary's safety. Someone somewhere would find her, by chance or using other sources. She was anything but save. And (without Moriarty's return) Sherlock wouldn't be around to keep an eye on her, even if he'd read the AGRA contents. It was actually quite stupid of John deciding to ignore the past. Could he ask Mycroft for help? 

[T.o.b.y]

There is something that bothers me about the end of HLV: killing CAM was actually not enough to ensure Mary's safety.

 

Indeed. If Sherlock had been precise and realistic, he have said "tell Mary she's safe for now", but I guess he got carried away in the melodrama of the moment.

 

If they don't use Mary's backstory, enemies included, for series 4, I will be very disappointed. I don't hold out much hope for the special, but the "proper" episodes really shouldn't let all that dramatic potential just slip by.

[Arcadia]

There is something that bothers me about the end of HLV: killing CAM was actually not enough to ensure Mary's safety. Someone somewhere would find her, by chance or using other sources. She was anything but save....

No, but it made her safe from CAM, who was the threat at the time. Other threats will have to be dealt with in their own time, in their own way. Personally, I hope that doesn't become a staple of the show (protecting Mary.) I'd just as soon her secret remain safe for the most part, so the boys can go off and solve crimes without having to worry about her.

 

Another thing I really, really hope does not become a trend in Sherlock is these James Bond tendencies that are suddenly showing up. Please, please, no, I do not, not, not want to see Sherlock as some sort of action hero/deadly assassin/superspy. He's a consulting detective, please let's leave it at that. Mary can be all those things, if she wants, but please not Sherlock.

 

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

It's possible that CAM was not just her only immediate threat, but also her only realistic threat.  If Mary constructed her current persona really well, there may be no plausible way that her old enemies could find her -- other than through CAM, who may have stumbled upon her secret  by accident.  It's far more difficult to find one specific thing (such as Mary's current identity) than it is to happen upon some random  interesting thing.

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Another thing I really, really hope does not become a trend in Sherlock is these James Bond tendencies that are suddenly showing up. Please, please, no, I do not, not, not want to see Sherlock as some sort of action hero/deadly assassin/superspy.

I believe/hope that they purposely used that very Bond-y tone when presenting Anderson's theory, as a hint that what we were seeing wasn't to be taken seriously. And I believe/hope that having Sherlock shoot CAM was meant to show that he had failed for once. And if so, then I believe/hope it was just a coincidence that we saw two examples in just one series, and that'll be pretty much that.