Subtext Interpretation... What Do You See?

[aely]

So, do you view Sherlock with slash goggles or are you just carried away by the epic bromance (I actually hate that word, but it is useful)?

 

Do you think that John and Sherlock are at it like bunnies whenever they get the opportunity or are they too close for that (and is Sherlock asexual anyway)?

 

Has Lestrade's marriage simply been a marriage of convenience to cover up his sexuality (police force back in the 80s wouldn't have been very forgiving after all) and he's had the hots for a certain consulting detective for years (wouldn't blame him, personally)? Do you think he wonders about what it would be like with both Sherlock and John or do you think he'd soon as smother the both of them and run after Molly?

 

Is Mrs Hudson's relationship with Mrs Turner more than that of just neighbours? Is Mrs H the one who put in the hidden cameras just to keep an eye on any possible shenanigans in 221b (and then invite certain people round to watch the results).

 

What is Mycroft's relationship with his brolly?

 

Are Donovan and Molly secretly best mates (secretly, because they just *know* what Sherlock would be like about it)?

 

If you have a favourite pairing/threesome/moresome, why not share it here? I realise that there will no doubt be lots of John/Sherlock plus John and Sherlock fans here (hey, I'm one myself) but I think it would be nice to find out the less common pairings that float people's boats - romantic and otherwise.

Edited March 5, 2012 by aely

[Lirael]

I tried to see the show as an epic bromance, but with every line and look between the characters it felt as if the series was shoving the slash goggles into my face, so I gave up and am shipping johnlock like there's no tomorrow.

 

I don't think they're doing it at all. And I don't think Sherlock is asexual: Moffat said something like "he chose to live the life of a monk" aka: he has desires, but is more worried about other things. I think both are like soulmates: they don't love each other because they like men, but because of each's personality (which would explain Irene and John's dialogue) and it doesn't require the relationship to get physical. Oh and I don't think they realized how important they are to each other yet.

 

...and I think I'm rambling, sorry *runs away*

[Undead Medic]

Ramble away, that's what we're here for!

[Lirael]

Yay, ok then: I don't really think any of the other characters have a thing for each other (apart from Jim, who has a sadistic...thing for Sherlock), but that doesn't stop me liking fics with pairing like mycroftxlestrade etc

 

There's something about this show that makes it easy to ship anyone with anyone ^^

 

Here's another question to keep the ball rolling: what is your favorite ship and what made you start shipping them?

 

I always kinda shipped johnlock but after the dialogue between John and Irene I felt that they might actually be in love ( I mean, is there another interpretation to what Irene said?)

[aely]

I love John/Sherlock (don't like using johnlock as I really have a thing about smushed names and identity - I'm a bit weird like that) but it's not my #1 favourite pairing - that dubious honour goes to John/Sherlock/Lestrade (I really have a thing for threesomes) or John/Lestrade.

 

What made me start shipping them?

Why does it rain in Liverpool? Some things are just made that way, me being one of them.

 

I can imagine Lestrade and Sherlock sidestepping around the issue for years, with Sherlock choosing to ignore any physical attraction (someone wrote a piece of meta that highlighted the fact that Sherlock never self identifies as anything onscreen; gay, bi or asexual but also doesn't identify as not-gay, not-bi, not-asexual for that matter, just 'not my area') until along comes John Watson who kind of upsets the applecart. This Lestrade strikes me as the sort of person who would be very curious about someone who is so obviously *good* for Sherlock and my little brain takes it from there...

 

I would probably ship this Lestrade with anyone as Rupert Graves makes me go wibble.

[Erika]

I love slash, so I'll admit that I do try to find it in any situation possible. I really like John/Sherlock, and I've even started reading some Mycroft/Lestrade fics even though they have never had any on-screen interaction. But that's the great thing about fanfic, anything is possible!

 

I do see onscreen Sherlock as asexual, but asexual does not mean one can not have romantic feelings someone only that they are not interested in sex. But I like to think Sherlock has feelings for John that do go beyond simple friendship, maybe even straying into the romantic. Moffat's comments on asexuality being basically "boring" made me angry, because I am asexual myself. We can certainly see that Sherlock lives a life that's anything but boring... well most of the time but then you just go shoot up a wall.

 

But I do like to expand to reading John/Sherlock fics of a more sexual nature as well. I just think it's unlikely we'll see it on-screen.

[aely]

There are a few asexual Sherlock fics that make the point that Asexual does not necessarily equal Aromantic and an asexual but romantic Sherlock is rather sweet.

Edited March 5, 2012 by aely

[Banshee]

So, do you view Sherlock with slash goggles or are you just carried away by the epic bromance (I actually hate that word, but it is useful)?

Now, that's a very good question, and probably the fact that I'm not entirely sure how to answer it has something to do with why I haven't even tried to write all those little things that keep going round in my head I think I'll have to ponder about that one...

[subtle science]

I loved Watson's exasperated, "Who the hell knows about Sherlock Holmes--but, for the record, if anyone cares, I'm NOT GAY," to Adler....And, of course, her retort that she is gay, with the point being that they both love Holmes, even if none of the sexual orientations actually match up.

 

I really liked Moffat's estimation of Holmes as being like a monk--first and foremost, that Holmes is celibate, and his sexuality is a mystery to those around him....I like the way Gatiss and Moffat have played with the idea of people's reactions and assumptions: what outsiders think, say, and believe.

 

I want to know about the ring that looks very much like a wedding ring on Mycroft's right hand.

[Erika]

I want to know about the ring that looks very much like a wedding ring on Mycroft's right hand.

 

Oh yes, I've been wondering about that lately too. It certainly looks like a wedding band. This show is very good with detail, so it's most likely not a mistake. Wedding rings are usually worn on the left hand though aren't they?

[aely]

Usually... unless you're wearing someone elses (like a dead realtives/freinds) or you're trying not to be 'obvious' about something.

[Erika]

Hmm very interesting!! I hope they go and explain that in series 3...

[Sherlock]

Sherlock and Watson were intended to be just friends, very good friends but just that. Doyle, intended that Sherlock was so dis-functional and asexual that he was never really interested in anyone, the 2 exceptions being John Watson and Irene Adler but even then not in a sexual manner.

However having said all that, I don't think there's any harm in a bit of fun!

 

Mycroft is gay and that is referred to in Doyle's books, can't remember which one but there is a passage where someone is mentioned as a ladies man and Mycroft replies with 'Each to their own.' Of course Gatiss is gay and is married (to the gentleman that plays Moriarty's defence barrister in The Reichenbach Fall).

[subtle science]

The Doyle stories don't present Holmes as dysfunctional, or asexual....Instead, Holmes reflects a very Victorian sensibility that sees women as naturally inferior: as emotional creatures who lack a man's capacity for reason and logic. Not that Holmes treats women poorly in the stories: in fact, he's quite gallant, even complimentary when they appear competent. It's just a typically patriarchal, condescending attitude--even though Watson ends up married (however many times), he, too, demonstrates the same attitude.

 

Watson's occasionally rather effuse admiration of Holmes in the stories comes from the same sensibility: Holmes is on a pedestal for being a man of science, thinking, and rationality, untainted by 'weaker' emotions. And the result of all the emphasis on the admirable 'male' traits and the celebration of masculinity is that there always seems to be a homosexual undertone to the Watson/Holmes relationship. Which is just kind of entertaining.

 

I love what Moffat and Gatiss have done--everyone else, including and maybe especially Watson, since he's living with Holmes, tries to figure out Holmes, who remains a will-o-the-wisp, sexually. Cumberbatch plays it perfectly: his Holmes is utterly unfazed by references to or questions about whether he's straight or gay or anything else; while Watson is defensive, Holmes blithely goes on, undefined and elusive. "Not my area," he says--yet he's tuned in enough to sexuality that he reads Jim from IT as gay (and not affronted by the phone number left for him) and to gauge with perfect accuracy Adler's measurements.

 

It's such a great way to approach the character--and not easy to pull off, yet they all do. It's fun, then, for the audience, too--who can try to puzzle out Holmes, just as the characters try to do; or read into Holmes; or come up with fanfiction--whatever.

[Sherlock]

Obviously the Doyle stories are open to interpretation, depending on who is reading them, but to suggest that Holmes is not presented as dysfunctional or asexual (when one or both of these was the norm in Victorian England and Holmes being the intense, drug using personality that he is), as a statement of fact, leads me to wonder if you have in fact read them, without pre-conceived ideas.

I have no interest in arguing and I am happy for everyone to have their own ideas, it's just your first line reads as a statement of fact when really it is a view. I hoped my post was not read the same way.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Sherlock

[subtle science]

Yes, I have read the Doyle stories, and I'm quite sure without preconceived ideas. I don't read with the intent of putting my own views into the work before I've looked at the pages--and that really applies to my first readings of Doyle 30-40 years ago.

 

None of that matters, though, obviously. I'm sorry my post was offensive, and I will gracefully, I hope, bow out of this discussion.

[Sherlock]

Oh no please don't, no offense taken here. I hope none shown from here either.

[Lirael]

It's nice to read a new reason for Doyle's Holmes and Watson to act the way they did ^^ I love deep analysis but the only one I've ever read regarding the original Holmes is this one, which is a book by book analysis of all the homoerotic subtext supposedly hidden in the novels (interesting, and sometimes a bit believable).

 

Btw, I read somewhere (I think tvtropes...) that Doyle was going to stop writing SH but then he met up with Oscar Wilde and decided to continue. True?

[Undead Medic]

Btw, I read somewhere (I think tvtropes...) that Doyle was going to stop writing SH but then he met up with Oscar Wilde and decided to continue. True?

 

Well if Wikipedia has its facts straight it was the fan outcry that led to Holmes' return in The Hound of the Baskervilles (Set before Reichenbach) and eventual resurrection in The Adventure of the Empty House.

[Lirael]

Fangirls: making public outcries over fictional and slashable characters since 1893.

 

And I just found this: "Following the acceptance of A Study in Scarlet, for which he was paid the paltry sum of £25, Conan Doyle decided to test his powers to the full with a long historical novel. The outcome was the highly successful Micah Clarke, which finally appeared in 1889. It must have been pleasing to Conan Doyle that the novel became a topic of conversation between himself and Oscar Wilde when the two met, along with J.M. Stoddart of Lippincott's Magazine, for dinner in the summer of 1889—a dinner which ended with Conan Doyle receiving a commission to write a further Sherlock Holmes adventure (The Sign of the Four), and Wilde the commission for The Picture of Dorian Gray."

Source: http://www.ash-tree.bc.ca/acdsbio.htm

Edited March 6, 2012 by Lirael

[Undead Medic]

Fangirls: making public outcries over fictional and slashable characters since 1893.

 

[aely]

Fangirls: making public outcries over fictional and slashable characters since 1893.

 

 

Just wish the outcries were more successful sometimes (and I'm not just talking about certain aspects Torchwood here, but also The Dresden Files which is another series close to my heart that was ended too soon IMO and Firefly is another thing altogether).

 

I'm glad ACD had his mind changed.

[Banshee]

I'm glad ACD had his mind changed.

 

I love the way you worded that!

[I-Spy]

On another note... what do you guys make of Sherlock's behavior towards Molly? Now, I am in no way a Sherlock-Molly shipper (I don't much like her doormat personality). I'm just genuinely baffled by the way he treats her sometimes. Most notable is the Christmas scene in a Scandal in Belgravia. Now, Sherlock has never been very gallant when it comes to women. To say that he was unfriendly towards John's girlfriend in this scene would be an understatement. But that is nothing compare to how he treated Molly. When Molly stepped into the room that night, Sherlock became distinctly cold and almost hostile... immediately sitting down at the computer and pointedly ignoring her, muttering snide remarks under his breath, and rolling his eyes. I was very surprised by his behavior. He was never this unfriendly towards other women, even with Sally Donovan. Yet here, he was noticeably meaner than usual with Molly. What's with that?

 

I remember Molly saying in a later episode that Sherlock allows himself to look sad only when he thinks that no one is looking. Yet obviously he has allowed Molly to see this side of him or else she would never have noticed. Does this mean that she is no one of importance to him, as she suggests... or perhaps in some strange, inexplicable way, he actually trusts her more than anyone. After all (if Molly's observation is true) he did let her see him without any armour... and in the end, he even asked her to help him fake his death.

 

So...what might we deduced about his feelings towards her? Is he fond of her? Or does he truly dislike her, and is only nice to her when she is of use to him? We have seen him, on multiple occasion, use her attraction toward him to manipulate her and get her to help him...

[Lirael]

I didn't think there was anything special about how he treated her at christmas. I mean, he didn't lash at at only her; healso treated Greg and John's girlfriend worst than usual. He was probably like that because of the situation with Irene.

 

I think he disregarded Molly but treated her nicely sometimes due to some feelings of gratefullness for her help or maybe because he deep down felt bad about treating her badly/using her when she was so nice and loyal. However, when (in the last episode) she showed him she wasn't stupid and that she liked him so much she would be a doormat willingly to help him, Sherlock started looking at her with different eyes and because of that started seeing her worth. When he goes to ask her help and says she matters, at that point I think he meant it.