What did Sherlock mean when he told Mary at Leinster Gardens that the police will see her face on the facade and reach conclusions?

[Kat]

I'm aware that Mary is a controversial character, but I understood why she shot Sherlock and for me she's not a baddie. Sherlock explains what happened. In his mind palace Mycroft draws his attention to the fact that the mirror didn't shatter. Besides if Sherlock thought that Mary was a nasty killer he wouldn't have asked John to come to the empty house; he would've asked Mycroft to help him make Mary disappear. Maybe he'd arrange for her to die in a car accident and let her live elsewhere away from the UK. Sherlock agrees to take Mary's case and John asks her to sit in the parlour like a client. I think Sherlock says that bit about the police figuring out she killed him to get her to reveal her version of events. He made some deductions about her before escaping from the hospital and cming to the empty house to think. Many viewers have pointed out she carries a gun. For me that's a plot hole. She didn't take a gun with her to Leinster Gardens specifically to murder Sherlock. Besides John and Sherlock wonder around London with weapons too and we're not in a John Wayne western, but in modern UK. Sherlock is trying to get Mary to talk and fill in some gaps for him. That's what Holmes did as created by Conan Doyle. What do you think of the mysterious sentence Sherlock says? Thanks for comments.

[Arcadia]

Hi again Kat!

I take it this is the sentence you are referring to: (from Ariane DeVere's transcript: https://arianedevere.dreamwidth.org/46494.html ) 

SHERLOCK (over phone): How good a shot are you?
(She reaches inside her coat, pulls out her pistol and cocks it, holding it down by her side.)
MARY: How badly do you want to find out?
SHERLOCK (over phone): If I die here, my body will be found in a building with your face projected on the front of it. Even Scotland Yard could get somewhere with that.

I agree with much of what you say, but unfortunately I have to go make dinner so I'll have to postpone replying in more detail for now! There's a couple other members hanging around right now, hopefully they'll jump in soon. Laterz!

[Kat]

Bon Apetit then. I'm Polish and my name is Katarzyna, Catherine in English. However, there's not Kat in Polish as an abbreviation, so this is my idea. Maybe others will write a comment. You can write anytime. I know the transcript. It's great almost like a professional screenplay. I read it on live.journal myself.

With hindsight that scene reminds me a bit of Vivian, the secretary. Sherlock is trying to get her to speak, but is too sure of himself. Mary warns him, bu he being Sherlock doesn't heed. Then Mary dies. Yes, I know she died in the stories but not like this with Mycroft, and a bunch of agents/police officers in the room!

I thought the Norbury bit was nicely done. Sherlock talks to Mrs. Hudson, who gets more screen time in the BBC version then even in the Guy Richie film.

In the Holmes stories you get potential villains saying something like  no, please Mr. Holmes I have 3 children, it's not like that I'll explain. Don't send me to prison! When Sherlock asks Mary how good a shot he is he doesn't mean it literally. At this point he knows she called an ambulance. When she says how badly you want to find out it's humour. I find English humour complicated sometimes and a bit insulting, but not here. Also when Sherlock says the doctor's wife is bored, he's provoking her to speak the truth like he did with Norbury at the aquarium. However, Norbury is evil from the start. Mary was an assassin, yes, but she worked for Mycroft and the British Government. Isn't 007 an assassin too? There's a difference between killing people like Blofeld and his cronies and killing because you have to sometimes. Mary went to Georgia to rescue the ambassador and his wife, but  Vivian betrayed Lady Smallwood in a way and everything went wrong. It's so easy to say a character shot another one. Thinking and understanding why requires the use of "grey cells" to quote another great detective created by a wonderful lady at a time when women were still seen as decoration. I'm going to stare out of the window now to rest my eyes as it's past 1 am CET.

[Carol the Dabbler]

3 hours ago, Kat said:

With hindsight that scene reminds me a bit of Vivian, the secretary. Sherlock is trying to get her to speak, but is too sure of himself. Mary warns him, but he being Sherlock doesn't heed.

Good heavens, you're right!  Sherlock does have a nasty habit, doesn't he -- taunting people who are holding guns at the time?  Come to think of it, I'd put his blabbing to oh, what's his name (Mary's former colleague, in the pool) into a somewhat similar category.  Shut up, Sherlock!

3 hours ago, Kat said:

Mary was an assassin, yes, but she worked for Mycroft and the British Government. Isn't 007 an assassin too?

I agree.  She may have been something of a freelancer at times, but that doesn't mean that she'd take just any old job, just for the money.

 

[J.P.]

Cześć, Kaśka
I think, it's what Mary said to Sherlock - she was ready to do everything to keep her secret from John - and this included killing him. She thinks she is going to meet the man she shot and who may think she wanted to kill him.

21 hours ago, Kat said:

When Sherlock asks Mary how good a shot he is he doesn't mean it literally.

I think he does. He says something like: "you are such en excellent shooter, so why did you miss me?" It's a hint that he knows, she didn't intended to kill him. Because if she wanted to, she wouldn't miss.

[Arcadia]

On 2/17/2021 at 7:45 PM, Kat said:

Also when Sherlock says the doctor's wife is bored, he's provoking her to speak the truth like he did with Norbury at the aquarium.

Hello again!

I hadn't thought about it in quite that way before, but I think you're right, I think he's taunting her to see what kind of reaction he gets.

I also think by the time Sherlock "escapes" from the hospital, he's pretty sure Mary didn't intend to kill him, but he's not 100 percent sure. So he's testing her to make sure (in a rather risky way, but he is Sherlock.  )  Also maybe he's trying to prove to John that she didn't mean to kill him. "See, John? She's had all kinds of chances to kill me, but she hasn't!"

On 2/17/2021 at 11:08 PM, Carol the Dabbler said:

She may have been something of a freelancer at times, but that doesn't mean that she'd take just any old job, just for the money.

I think my problem is, I don't think "assassin" is usually applied to people who work for the government, is it? 007, for instance, is usually called a secret agent, isn't he? But I've long since decided that Moftiss used the word "assassin" because it sounds more exciting (and morally grey) than "agent." And in the end, I guess they often do the same thing -- kill people.

[Kat]

One of the reasons I asked this question is to find how others view this scene. You're welcome to share my post on this forum, just state my name. Yes, 007 is a secret agent as well. However he kills people and his bosses criticise him for it sometimes, but he manages to get out of trouble, it's fiction. That doesn't mean he lacks a moral backbone. In one scene Mycroft picks up the phone (can't remember what episdoe) and says M into the headpiece, so I figured out it's THAT M and Mycroft is kind of his subordinate. I use "kind of" especially to highlight the vaguness of what he actually does. My point was that even in Mary killed somebody it wasn't as if she went on a shooting rampage like in a horror film! The men in Magnussen's office were unconscious for a while and Sherlock didn't seem to have pity for the criminal with five dots on his arm. She knows who to kill, why and when. Notice that when Magnussen is kneeling he says to Sherlock that Mary will kill them both and she's smiling. Why? Because she wanted to kill only one man, she's mocking CAM with that facial expression.

[Arcadia]

17 hours ago, Kat said:

My point was that even in Mary killed somebody it wasn't as if she went on a shooting rampage like in a horror film! The men in Magnussen's office were unconscious for a while and Sherlock didn't seem to have pity for the criminal with five dots on his arm. She knows who to kill, why and when.

That's a good distinction. 

Mary going after Magnussen though ... she says "people like him" are why people like her exist, but she didn't go after him because he was a bad guy ... she went after him because he threatened her personally. Which makes her actions even more morally grey than ever, imo. But I think she was supposed to be morally grey; lord knows Sherlock is, and John too, sometimes. I think that's one of the things that made the show likeable; the characters weren't icons of virtue, and it made them relatable. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

5 hours ago, Arcadia said:

I think she was supposed to be morally grey; lord knows Sherlock is, and John too, sometimes. I think that's one of the things that made the show likeable; the characters weren't icons of virtue, and it made them relatable. 

I won't argue with that -- however, I'd like to point out to Moftiss that women can be morally gray without actually being international agents or dominatrices or not-so-innocent drug widows.  I mean, what's next -- little Rosie kidnapping puppies for ransom?

 

[Arcadia]

And I won't argue with that!  

[Van Buren Supernova]

On 2/21/2021 at 4:12 AM, Carol the Dabbler said:

I won't argue with that -- however, I'd like to point out to Moftiss that women can be morally gray without actually being international agents or dominatrices or not-so-innocent drug widows.

I guess that also includes stuffing a detective into her trunk.

I'd say Molly could be an example of morally grey without being those you mentioned. I mean, she lets Sherlock beats up a corpse, which is dark depends on how you look at it. His family? Geez, that is traumatic and sick. Sherlock's fan? Haha, that is the moment I fell in love with him. 

Lady Smallwood? She is portrayed as straight-forward 'good' but she engages Sherlock, knowing full well that he might not use 'properly legal' approach to deal with Magnussen.

Who else? Janine. She is definitely morally grey without being too crazy too. Smaller character like Irene's assistant, Mycroft's assistant (NAME!) who certainly know their bosses are shady. 

And that (NAME! Good god I need rewatch!) Kitty, she is also a good example, snooping in men's room for news, stepping over privacy.

 

On 2/21/2021 at 4:12 AM, Carol the Dabbler said:

I mean, what's next -- little Rosie kidnapping puppies for ransom?

Don't do that.

Do you know what happens when you do bad things to puppies????? John Wick 1-3.

Stay. Away. From. Puppies.

 

And, hi Kat!

Late for the discussion, I have to disagree with some of your point about Mary, mainly because you seems to point her up as all positive. I get that you are looking at that side but fully aware and understand the flaws.

However, for me, I am very disturbed by 'those flaw'. It is not okay for me that she shot a friend, especially someone who means so much to her husband, and put him to the brink of death. And cold heartedly threatening him again (unlike you, I don't see that as humour at all), lie to both of them, and why it makes her very difficult to redeem, is because there is not much pay off or good reason I could buy about why she needs to go to that length. T6T makes it worse.

Does she know John and Sherlock at all? Why she doubt that 'talking' to them would be worse than shooting Sherlock? No I can't fathom that.

P.S. I don't hate Mary, I think she ends up being too much of plot device that is carelessly concluded if that makes sense.

But if her offspring does anything to a puppyyyyy...... I'd be absolutely monstrous.

Anyway, nice to see you around. I am some sort of grumpy member around here, and you probably notice that I love dogs.😊

[Carol the Dabbler]

1 hour ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

Molly could be an example of morally grey without being those you mentioned. I mean, she lets Sherlock beats up a corpse, which is dark depends on how you look at it.

I suspect we're all varying shades of gray, depending on how (and when) you look at us.  As for the corpse guy, Molly elaborated a bit more in the unaired pilot [link]:

Quote

MOLLY: Just in. Sixty-seven, natural causes. He used to work here – donated his body. I knew him. He was nice.
SHERLOCK: Fine. We’ll start with the riding crop.

So assuming that he donated his body for scientific purposes (which seems likely -- if it'd been for transplants, he wouldn't likely have gone to the morgue), Sherlock's forensic experiments should qualify as such.  (I agree, his family would probably rather not know the specifics, but they'd at least know it was according to his wishes.)

1 hour ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

Mycroft's assistant (NAME!) who certainly know their bosses are shady. 

Her name is not-Anthea.  

1 hour ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

Stay. Away. From. Puppies.

I assume that even Moftiss will realize that was intended only as an extreme example.  (Though yes, I do realize who I'm talking about.  Sorry.)

1 hour ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

Does she know John and Sherlock at all?

Probably not, not really.  No more than they really know her.  I've "known" some people that, even though I like and respect them, I just don't "get" them AT ALL (nor do they "get" me, as far as I can tell).  I think Mary is kinda of like that with Sherlock and John, and vice versa -- ships that pass in the night, despite knowing each other for some time and at close quarters.

 

[Van Buren Supernova]

1 hour ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

So assuming that he donated his body for scientific purposes (which seems likely -- if it'd been for transplants, he wouldn't likely have gone to the morgue), Sherlock's forensic experiments should qualify as such.  (I agree, his family would probably rather not know the specifics, but they'd at least know it was according to his wishes.)

Oh no, now you make me think that it's a very normal experiments. 😋

Still, Sherlock is probably not there under official assignment, or someone with actual license to conduct such experiments? And pretty sure he doesn't go through proper signing out for those thumbs he acquired that are nonchalantly thrown out by Mrs. Hudson. Fun times!

1 hour ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

Her name is not-Anthea

Ah, no wonder I don't know her name!

1 hour ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

I assume that even Moftiss will realize that was intended only as an extreme example.  (Though yes, I do realize who I'm talking about.  Sorry.)

No worries, Carol, I was joking. But yes, be careful John Wick could be on his way to get you.

1 hour ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

Probably not, not really.  No more than they really know her.  I've "known" some people that, even though I like and respect them, I just don't "get" them AT ALL (nor do they "get" me, as far as I can tell).  I think Mary is kinda of like that with Sherlock and John, and vice versa -- ships that pass in the night, despite knowing each other for some time and at close quarters.

That is possible, for 'deeper' stuffs, but pretty sure Mary knows Sherlock and John don't have the cleanest slate or so called sparkling black and white judgement. She at least knows how they operate to certain level, she knows Sherlock faked his death and how he gets Moriarty etc etc. In certain, she knows who they are in 'that' world, and how they also cross lines or do questionable things.

And I can't even remember what exactly is she trying to hide that is so bad that John wouldn't understand that is worse than shooting Sherlock and lies. Bottom line, they don't make the stake high enough to justify her doing that to Sherlock and John.

 

 

[Kat]

Thanks for all comments. This is going to be long, though not too long, but I just want to clarify a few ideas. My point is not really to defend Mary and be biased. https://wellingtongoose.livejournal.com/28988.html    

has some interesting thoughts. I just want some people to see what she's like. For me she wants to let go of her past, be a mother to Rosie, a wife to John and work in a different setting. She's decided to move out of danger. However, her past catches up with her in the form of Ajay. There are reasons why she doesn't want to talk to John and Sherlock, but we're not told what they are. Gatiss said she wanted to kill CAM and shot Sherlock because she was vulnerable. When Sherlock enters the office she's scared and asks if John's with him. At the hospital she's frightened. If she wanted to murder him she could've done that easily without anyone noticinh this at the hospital. I understand why some viewers may be outraged. If we look at the script carefully, we can see why she did some things or why she said certain words. Mary investigates with Sherlock and John for a while. That's why I said that if Sherlock saw her as a threat he'd move her from John's path asking Mycroft to fake a car accident for example. This wellingtongoose user has some interesting thoughts about other issues as well, related to the series. S/he, though I think it's a woman, seems to be a voice of reason online amid all the hatred that's circling around. As for being grey I say it applies to Lady Smallwood more then to Molly. And the idea about Rosie is meant to be ironic, I think. I don't think Mary wanted to murder Sherlock. She wanted to kill Magnussen. Why? Listen to this.

Have you read the original story? If not I'm revealing the ending, so make a decision to read more. Who shot CAM? A lady. Sherlock Holmes (not Sherlock, that's modern) knows her name, but doesn't reveal it to Inspector Lestrade. Why? Because he's protecting her. Don't we get a similar disussion between Lestrade and John? Now, why would Sherlock protect Mary? Because he knows she's not the equivalent of a killer employed by Bond's Blofeld. That's why earlier I made references to Poirot and glass shattering. Mycroft mentions the mirror in Sherlock's mind palace. Sherlock in his mind palace says the mirror is complete. When Sherlock enters the room he thinks it's Lady Smallwood on account of the perfume. Lady, see? In the story the woman who shot Millverton was respectable. We don't know if she was an aristocrat with a title, but she wasn't a tradesman's wife, from what I gathered. The issue concerned letters. Didn't Lady Smallwood's husband write something? That's my idea, didn't find anything to support my view online.

In the BBC series it's Mary standing over Magnussen. That's a nice twist I think. Look at Mary's laugh when CAM tells Sherlock she'll kill them both. She knows who to kill, why and when. She wants to kill CAM, not Sherlock. Why? She has a conscience. That's why I said that Sherlock lures her to Leinster Gardens to ask her to fill the gaps and takes John with him. Why does he rush out of the hospital? To make deductions before getting both John and Mary to come and make up. However, he needs to Mary to complete his train of thought. That's why he says he'll take the case and smiles at the bewildered woman. He spends a lot of time at Leinster Gardens from what we know because Mycroft and quite a number of people serach for him. That's why I said he uses the facade bit and the police will find my body to get Mary to tell the facts. I compared that to Vivian and how the secretary is unlike Mary. I'm not saying I'm so intelligent.

A number of people online claimed that when Sherlock shoots CAM fatally it's sexist because it's a lady who kills Millverton. I disagree with them. The modern Sherlock has flaws, sure like Mary at Leinster Gardens(my original question), but it's quite good. The thing is it requires analysis and it's easier to show hate online then think logically, using plain common sense or grey cells and ask others for opinions. Each episode is a mind blowing riddle, to be sure, well except the first one about the cabbie.

You can disagree and I know that Mary's actions might be hard to swallow. Like I said I think she navigates between John and Sherlock more than Molly does. She's a distraction in my opinion and has been in the series for too long. I read online some say it's Mycroft. Not in my view. He gets a lot of screen time sure, but he's not a plot device. Remember that John's surprised that Mary says she likes Sherlock? Does that mean she's manipulative? She's not Eurus, who is a real threat, though a sister too. I also made a reference to the ending of The Sign of Four when Holmes tells Watson that the then Miss Morstan would be good at what they do. The whole concept of Sherlock Holmes novels and stories is based on an intellectual puzzle. Yes, I'm angry that Moffat fails to explain things in the series and Gatiss in interviews, but if you spend 3 months scouring the internet you may find some interesting things. Not being able to find what you're looking for can be irritating, but we have to live with this, I guess.

Thanks for your patience. I felt I had to make a longer comment for clarification purposes after reading other remarks.

 

[Arcadia]

16 hours ago, Kat said:

Thanks for all comments. This is going to be long, though not too long, but I just want to clarify a few ideas. My point is not really to defend Mary and be biased. https://wellingtongoose.livejournal.com/28988.html    

has some interesting thoughts. I just want some people to see what she's like. For me she wants to let go of her past, be a mother to Rosie, a wife to John and work in a different setting. She's decided to move out of danger. However, her past catches up with her in the form of Ajay. There are reasons why she doesn't want to talk to John and Sherlock, but we're not told what they are. Gatiss said she wanted to kill CAM and shot Sherlock because she was vulnerable. When Sherlock enters the office she's scared and asks if John's with him. At the hospital she's frightened. If she wanted to murder him she could've done that easily without anyone noticinh this at the hospital. I understand why some viewers may be outraged. If we look at the script carefully, we can see why she did some things or why she said certain words. Mary investigates with Sherlock and John for a while. That's why I said that if Sherlock saw her as a threat he'd move her from John's path asking Mycroft to fake a car accident for example. This wellingtongoose user has some interesting thoughts about other issues as well, related to the series. S/he, though I think it's a woman, seems to be a voice of reason online amid all the hatred that's circling around. As for being grey I say it applies to Lady Smallwood more then to Molly. And the idea about Rosie is meant to be ironic, I think. I don't think Mary wanted to murder Sherlock. She wanted to kill Magnussen. Why? Listen to this.

Have you read the original story? If not I'm revealing the ending, so make a decision to read more. Who shot CAM? A lady. Sherlock Holmes (not Sherlock, that's modern) knows her name, but doesn't reveal it to Inspector Lestrade. Why? Because he's protecting her. Don't we get a similar disussion between Lestrade and John? Now, why would Sherlock protect Mary? Because he knows she's not the equivalent of a killer employed by Bond's Blofeld. That's why earlier I made references to Poirot and glass shattering. Mycroft mentions the mirror in Sherlock's mind palace. Sherlock in his mind palace says the mirror is complete. When Sherlock enters the room he thinks it's Lady Smallwood on account of the perfume. Lady, see? In the story the woman who shot Millverton was respectable. We don't know if she was an aristocrat with a title, but she wasn't a tradesman's wife, from what I gathered. The issue concerned letters. Didn't Lady Smallwood's husband write something? That's my idea, didn't find anything to support my view online.

In the BBC series it's Mary standing over Magnussen. That's a nice twist I think. Look at Mary's laugh when CAM tells Sherlock she'll kill them both. She knows who to kill, why and when. She wants to kill CAM, not Sherlock. Why? She has a conscience. That's why I said that Sherlock lures her to Leinster Gardens to ask her to fill the gaps and takes John with him. Why does he rush out of the hospital? To make deductions before getting both John and Mary to come and make up. However, he needs to Mary to complete his train of thought. That's why he says he'll take the case and smiles at the bewildered woman. He spends a lot of time at Leinster Gardens from what we know because Mycroft and quite a number of people serach for him. That's why I said he uses the facade bit and the police will find my body to get Mary to tell the facts. I compared that to Vivian and how the secretary is unlike Mary. I'm not saying I'm so intelligent.

A number of people online claimed that when Sherlock shoots CAM fatally it's sexist because it's a lady who kills Millverton. I disagree with them. The modern Sherlock has flaws, sure like Mary at Leinster Gardens(my original question), but it's quite good. The thing is it requires analysis and it's easier to show hate online then think logically, using plain common sense or grey cells and ask others for opinions. Each episode is a mind blowing riddle, to be sure, well except the first one about the cabbie.

You can disagree and I know that Mary's actions might be hard to swallow. Like I said I think she navigates between John and Sherlock more than Molly does. She's a distraction in my opinion and has been in the series for too long. I read online some say it's Mycroft. Not in my view. He gets a lot of screen time sure, but he's not a plot device. Remember that John's surprised that Mary says she likes Sherlock? Does that mean she's manipulative? She's not Eurus, who is a real threat, though a sister too. I also made a reference to the ending of The Sign of Four when Holmes tells Watson that the then Miss Morstan would be good at what they do. The whole concept of Sherlock Holmes novels and stories is based on an intellectual puzzle. Yes, I'm angry that Moffat fails to explain things in the series and Gatiss in interviews, but if you spend 3 months scouring the internet you may find some interesting things. Not being able to find what you're looking for can be irritating, but we have to live with this, I guess.

Thanks for your patience. I felt I had to make a longer comment for clarification purposes after reading other remarks.

 

I wouldn't worry, I think we all respect your point of view. We just like to argue!  

I think Moftiss meant for Mary to be somewhat controversial, but I'm not sure they realized how much controversy she would actually cause. At any rate, I suspect when/if the series returns, she won't be around, even as a ghost. (Which is too bad, in some ways, because I REALLY liked ghost-Mary!  )

[Arcadia]

On 2/23/2021 at 1:36 AM, Van Buren Supernova said:

And I can't even remember what exactly is she trying to hide that is so bad that John wouldn't understand that is worse than shooting Sherlock and lies. Bottom line, they don't make the stake high enough to justify her doing that to Sherlock and John.

I think she was trying to hide the fact that she used to kill people for a living.  But she only killed bad people, so it's okay.  😉 

[Carol the Dabbler]

On 2/23/2021 at 4:48 PM, Kat said:

I just want to clarify a few ideas. My point is not really to defend Mary and be biased. https://wellingtongoose.livejournal.com/28988.html    

has some interesting thoughts.

Been a while since anyone mentioned wellingtongoose on here!  Yes, I like hisser examinations of plot points, very carefully analyitical.

 

[Van Buren Supernova]

14 hours ago, Arcadia said:

I wouldn't worry, I think we all respect your point of view. We just like to argue!  

Yes to this. No worries, in here, many times we disagree with others quite a bit but certainly welcome other's pov. It's been years and I still argue with Arcadia about Magnussen. Can you believe she said it's okay for him to pee in that fireplace?? (Wait.. no that? Oh okay, something about Sherlock killing him, but close enough. )

 

To me, a movie or a book should be able to explain themselves independently. There are times when I like movie adaptation because I have read the books and everything makes sense, but then I look back and imagining not knowing the book, and there are many many important things that are missing, characters that are misunderstood because the movie fails to deliver a stand alone and relying on audience's knowledge on books. 

Also, there are many many ways of interpretations, and if they come from various sources and multiple ways of thinking and views, and all considered, it could blur the presentation of that particular series. Sherlock is quite an unique example, as it comes from a source that exists since looong time ago, had been interpreted and recreated countless times across various platforms, style, each with their own. Now added with complication of internet culture and modern times, it could go to the spectrum between holistic and a mess. (Johnlock, cough)

So, for me personally, I love to see it from BBC's Sherlock point of view at its own.

And by itself, my point of Mary could actually be sum up as simple as this.

Mary shoots her friend and lies to her husband to protect herself. It is so selfish in my eyes.

Yes, she wants a happy life free of baggage, but how selfish it is to achieve that by sheltering her husband from the truth and shoots his friend, the one she knows very well whose(?) death devastates John. Now, the surgical stuff. Imo, noone could ever surely predict the physic and mental of another mortal being. And we were shown it's not a piece of cake for Sherlock to survive it, not at all. Even taking that chance is not right with me.

Wait how come it's not simple, I thought I could explain that in one sentence. Oh well. Regardless how complicated Mary character and way of thinking, which I don't disagree, to me, she is selfish.

You never harm a friend for your own purpose.

(especially for something that doesn't last. Seriously, Sherlock is a proven well-known detective with Mycroft the british goverment as big brother. How many Magnussen she needs to kill to keep that secret?)

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

9 hours ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

Now added with complication of internet culture and modern times, it could go to the spectrum between holistic and a mess. (Johnlock, cough)

I've heard that the basic Johnlock concept has been bantered about since Conan Doyle's stories were first in print.  Don't know that anyone wrote stories about it, though, they just wondered what was really going on at #221B.

9 hours ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

Now, the surgical stuff. Imo, noone could ever surely predict the physic and mental of another mortal being. And we were shown it's not a piece of cake for Sherlock to survive it, not at all.

"Surgery" may actually be a pretty good analogy, then.  It generally takes a while to recuperate, and the outcome isn't always positive.  I know two people whose fathers died as a result of routine colonoscopies, and those aren't even surgery, just "procedures."

9 hours ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

Regardless how complicated Mary character and way of thinking, which I don't disagree, to me, she is selfish.

Everyone sees things from their own perspective, and we're all pretty good at rationalizing what we want, telling ourselves that it's also good for other people.  Mary tried to leave, thinking it would protect both herself and her family, but John selfishly wanted her back home with him, so he and Sherlock rationalized that they could keep her safe.  I don't fully understand Sherlock's reason for taunting Vivian, but he seemed to be showing off, another selfish behavior.  Neither of them intended to jeopardize Mary, yet if they hadn't done those selfish things, Mary would probably still be alive, somewhere.

If Mary seems more selfish, that may simply be because she has a lot more to rationalize than us ordinary folks.

 

[Arcadia]

Terribly late responding to this ... computer problems. 😞 Hope no one minds if I dig into this some more.

On 2/25/2021 at 12:27 AM, Van Buren Supernova said:

No worries, in here, many times we disagree with others quite a bit but certainly welcome other's pov. It's been years and I still argue with Arcadia about Magnussen. Can you believe she said it's okay for him to pee in that fireplace?? (Wait.. no that? Oh okay, something about Sherlock killing him, but close enough. )

Say what????? I never!!! 

On 2/25/2021 at 12:27 AM, Van Buren Supernova said:

Mary shoots her friend and lies to her husband to protect herself. It is so selfish in my eyes.

Yes, she wants a happy life free of baggage, but how selfish it is to achieve that by sheltering her husband from the truth and shoots his friend, the one she knows very well whose(?) death devastates John. Now, the surgical stuff. Imo, noone could ever surely predict the physic and mental of another mortal being. And we were shown it's not a piece of cake for Sherlock to survive it, not at all. Even taking that chance is not right with me.

Wait how come it's not simple, I thought I could explain that in one sentence. Oh well. Regardless how complicated Mary character and way of thinking, which I don't disagree, to me, she is selfish.

You never harm a friend for your own purpose.

(especially for something that doesn't last. Seriously, Sherlock is a proven well-known detective with Mycroft the british goverment as big brother. How many Magnussen she needs to kill to keep that secret?)

All true, alas. Although I think I always took my cue from Sherlock ... he forgave her, so I did too. Once. If she'd done it again I'd be finished with her. After she skipped out on John and Sherlock in T6T I was ready to see the end of her (although the way Moffat brought her back in TLD made me want to like her more than ever. But trust her? No. And trust is important to me.)

On 2/25/2021 at 10:39 AM, Carol the Dabbler said:

Everyone sees things from their own perspective, and we're all pretty good at rationalizing what we want, telling ourselves that it's also good for other people.  Mary tried to leave, thinking it would protect both herself and her family, but John selfishly wanted her back home with him, so he and Sherlock rationalized that they could keep her safe.  I don't fully understand Sherlock's reason for taunting Vivian, but he seemed to be showing off, another selfish behavior.  Neither of them intended to jeopardize Mary, yet if they hadn't done those selfish things, Mary would probably still be alive, somewhere.

If Mary seems more selfish, that may simply be because she has a lot more to rationalize than us ordinary folks.

Maybe, but I also think her motivations were different. Sherlock lied horribly to John, faking his death, making John witness it, and I find that pretty unforgiveable. But he did it to protect John, at least to some extent. I don't think selfishness was the root of his actions.

Mary, on the other hand, caused great physical harm to Sherlock, to the point of risking his life ... and she did it to save herself. I think that's the part that makes it hard to accept her. She wasn't making a sacrifice, and she wasn't protecting anyone else. She just didn't want to be accountable for her actions in her previous life.

I guess that's why they had her sacrifice herself to save Sherlock ... atonement for her selfishness before. But it was so clumsily handled, imo, that the point didn't really get across. *sigh*

[Carol the Dabbler]

12 hours ago, Arcadia said:

But it was so clumsily handled, imo, that the point didn't really get across.

... if they were even meaning to make a point.  They had been hinting all along that Mary had to die, simply because the original Mary Morstan apparently died in canon, sometime between The Final Problem and The Empty House (i.e., about the time she was introduced in Sherlock).  But then they turn sweet Mary into a hired gun.  They have a strange idea of remaining true to canon!!!  And their "points" often seem to boil down to ha-ha, fooled ya!

 

 

[Arcadia]

On 3/23/2021 at 3:03 PM, Carol the Dabbler said:

... if they were even meaning to make a point.  They had been hinting all along that Mary had to die, simply because the original Mary Morstan apparently died in canon, sometime between The Final Problem and The Empty House (i.e., about the time she was introduced in Sherlock).  But then they turn sweet Mary into a hired gun.  They have a strange idea of remaining true to canon!!!  And their "points" often seem to boil down to ha-ha, fooled ya!

Alas, all true. *sigh* It can be hard sometimes to remember why I love this show.  

[Van Buren Supernova]

On 3/25/2021 at 7:14 AM, Arcadia said:

Alas, all true. *sigh* It can be hard sometimes to remember why I love this show.  

I remember!

You told us! Many times.  

This:

Tsk.. what would Sherlock say had he known.

 

I didn't think I was dissapointed much with S4, except John's part, but now I think I probably am?  Because I still avoid rewatching, for some reason I 'dread' it, but honestly I really want to see whether I look at it differently now.

Is it better to binge it from S1 or just dive to S4. I could watch S1-3 repeatedly many times back then (except SOT), it probably helps to remind me why I love it or it could make me more dissapointed with S4. How did you guys do the rewatch?

 

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

9 hours ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

I still avoid rewatching, for some reason I 'dread' it, but honestly I really want to see whether I look at it differently now.

Me too.  Not sure I've watched any of the series since shortly after S4 came out.

9 hours ago, Van Buren Supernova said:

Is it better to binge it from S1 or just dive to S4. I could watch S1-3 repeatedly many times back then (except SOT), it probably helps to remind me why I love it or it could make me more dissapointed with S4.

Good question!  Dunno how many times I watched S1 and S2, but I never seemed to tire of it.  S3 I watched several times, but not as many -- it's just not the same.  As for S4, I liked the first two episodes at the time, but considering the series now as a whole, bleh.  But yeah, maybe if I got a running start by watching S1 and S2, then kept my momentum going....

Not sure whether I want to, though.  Maybe if there was a Series 5 on the way?

 

[Caya]

Personally, I watched S1 and S2 a couple times while trying to forget that anything ever came afterward (only watched S3 and Bride once, never could find the stomach for S4; Plaidder's Empty Houses is canon, as far as I'm concerned ). But I'm wishing you the best of luck for many happy rewatchings.