Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[sherlockandjohn]

 

 

I think people have such high emotional expectations they can't simply enjoy the story they get. It's the fan's curse:-)

 

 

Hm, I get what you're saying, and there is some truth to it, at least to us having high expectations. However; that cannot possibly explain our objections to everything. It cannot explain why I dislike Mary.

 

I have, however, watched the episode a second time, and I'm more understanding of John and Sherlock's reactions. Still dislike Mary, though. I cannot possibly buy into the "surgery" explanation - the point is, it could have easily gone wrong, and this is Sherlock we're talking about! I'm sorry, but... what were the writers thinking? I hope they were just trying to make it easier for us if and when Mary dies, but since a lot of people love her, I doubt it.

 

Overall, I like the episode better after a second viewing, as I did with TEH and TSoT, but because of my feelings about Mary, I cannot love it. It is a remarkable episode in many ways and I particularly like Sherlock in it, but it is a bit too dark for my taste.

[ghost8686]

I just finished watching the episode and have got to say... I am kind of disappointed with how it ended.

 

Now overall I thought the episode was very good. It was intense and kept me at the edge of my seat the whole way through. However, I feel the way it inded with Sherlock shooting Magnussen was just really disappointing. The thing that I love about the series so much is that Sherlock ALWAYS managed to outsmart his opponents in the end, even when it seemed like he had lost. This time, however, he just flat out lost completely which seemed very out of character to me. Having to resort to murder to win just doesn't seem like the Sherlock I've seen throughout the rest of the series. Not to mention the fact that he was allowed to keep a gun on him when earlier in the episode he was searched at his own appartment makes no sense. Then Moriarty returning right after just seemed like a cop-out way to get Sherlock out of his punishment. 

 

Overall I thought Magnussen was one of the most interesting enemies Sherlock has faced so far, and just shooting him without really "beating" him felt like a very anti climatic way to end their face-off.

 

What does everyone else think about this?

[sherlockandjohn]

Why can I not leave this episode alone?! Seems like the more conflicted one is about an episode, the more one feels the need to talk about it, so... Okay. More observations:

 

What I think makes the episode so dark is mainly the characterisation of Mary, John, and Sherlock.

 

The moment in which Mary turns around to face Sherlock in Magnussen's penthouse is shocking. And, oh, the look on Sherlock's face...  Her coming to Sherlock's bedside at the hospital, telling a half-asleep Sherlock to not tell John feels chilling, almost threatening. Sherlock and Mary's encounter at the empty house shows a Sherlock who has recovered from his shock and injury, and is completely at the top of his game. He might even be enjoying the drama of it just a little bit. Mary shows no remorse about shooting Sherlock, being pretty cold in her demeanour until she starts talking about John and needing to hide the truth from him. This shows that she will go to extreme lengths to protect her relationship with John.

Sherlock even seems to understand her and defend her; perhaps because he believes she is good for John, and perhaps because he is a bit like her in some ways. They definitely both have a dark streak.

It is said about John that even he is attracted to that dark streak in both Sherlock and Mary, and he subconsciously knew that Mary had it, and that's one of the reasons he chose her.

 

In previous episodes and situations, we have seen dark sides to Sherlock, and it's part of what makes him so fascinating. I, however, dislike John being portrayed as such, and I feel that something has shifted in the relationship between him and Sherlock because of it and really made me wonder if this is the road we are headed down... Can we expect to see more dark John from now on? I hope not, but I have no idea, and that's a bit unsettling at the moment.

 

Up until now, Sherlock has been very fun, upbeat, heart-warming, with focus on friendship, brilliant detective work, and sharp dialogue. Episodes like 'The Sign of Three' and 'His Last Vow' were markedly different in some ways, and so will, needless to say, split the fandom. We all probably loved the first two series, or we wouldn't have become fans , but with the different tones of recent episodes it is hard to tell what lies ahead.

 

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

While I'm not happy that Sherlock had to be the one to shoot, Magnussan, though I can understand why he did it, it is canon. Charles Augustus Milverton was shoot at least three times by a lady that he was blackmailing at the same time that Holmes and Watson was breaking into his safe to steal some letters back for a client. So this episode was very close to canon. And Magnussan now had a whole lot to hold over Sherlock's head with bringing Mycroft's all important lap top to him so Sherlock becomes the stand in for that brave lady who Holmes knew but would never betray.

[Earendil]

Very interesting thoughts as always, thank you for everyone who contributed, I love to read your comments, guys.

 

Two things bother me a lot which weren't mentioned before : We know that Sherlock kills Magnussen with John's gun. 

1. How could John manage to smuggle his gun in his pocket to Magnussens's home (Appledore)? Couple of days earlier in Baker street Sherlock and John were both searched for weapons before Magnussen entered their home. I think it's quite illogical.

2. Using John's pistol Sherlock put his friend in danger too. To possess such a handgun is illegal in the UK (and the rest of Europe). So John could have also put in jail for that. 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

It seems that Magnussen was over confident in his own lair. Who would dare think of accosting him at all. And as for John having his gun, this is the part of the Victorianizing of Sherlock. John always has his gun in canon, so, he is going to have it here as well. We do have to suspend reality here, even if we think it silly or illogical. It is as close to Sir Arthur's Sherlock Holmes as Moffiss can make it.

[sherlockandjohn]

I just finished watching the episode and have got to say... I am kind of disappointed with how it ended.

 

Now overall I thought the episode was very good. It was intense and kept me at the edge of my seat the whole way through. However, I feel the way it inded with Sherlock shooting Magnussen was just really disappointing. The thing that I love about the series so much is that Sherlock ALWAYS managed to outsmart his opponents in the end, even when it seemed like he had lost. This time, however, he just flat out lost completely which seemed very out of character to me. Having to resort to murder to win just doesn't seem like the Sherlock I've seen throughout the rest of the series. Not to mention the fact that he was allowed to keep a gun on him when earlier in the episode he was searched at his own appartment makes no sense. Then Moriarty returning right after just seemed like a cop-out way to get Sherlock out of his punishment. 

 

Overall I thought Magnussen was one of the most interesting enemies Sherlock has faced so far, and just shooting him without really "beating" him felt like a very anti climatic way to end their face-off.

 

What does everyone else think about this?

 

I think it was all about protecting Mary and John - not about winning (for once).

 

I didn't like the cop-out at the end. It ripped the emotion right out of the situation of Sherlock leaving John. Of course they had to do something; they couldn't have Sherlock leave, but it was badly handled.

[KaeEm]

 

 

Again, I can totally imagine John being emotionally numb, shutting down, battered from Sherlock already leaving him and returning.  But for me personally, to interpret the scene that way I need to see some basis for it, however subtle, onscreen.  And as hard as I squint, I'm not seeing it.

 

 

I did see more than just a basis, it's just more subtle than tears, open crying and hugging. But isn't that what Sherlock's and John's relationship is all about? They don't need words to understand each other.

 

So what did I see in this scene? (And so sorry if I keep repeating myself, I really should stop thinking about this episode, I know):

 

a) The fact that John doesn't know what to say tells me that he's deeply upset about what has happened. He's not usually lost for words unless he's upset.

 

b  ) When Sherlock answers John's question about what's going to happen after those six months are over, and Sherlock sadly says "who knows", you can clearly see that John realizes that he might never see Sherlock again and has to fight really hard to keep control over his emotions and prevent himself from breaking down.

 

c) Sherlock doesn't want to see John to lose control and start crying, so he helps him to regain his composure by making the "Sherlock is girl's name" joke. John's laugh after that remark is a mixture between a laugh and a suppressed sob, just listen to it with your headphones on. You can clearly hear that he's still heartbroken but thankful for Sherlock's attempt to lighten the mood. Sherlock himself is just happy that he's successfully prevented John from losing control and has succeeded to make him laugh for one last time.

 

d) I don't see John's refusal to call his dauther Sherlock as a cold rejection of Sherlock, it's just John letting Sherlock know that there's no way there's ever going to be another Sherlock in his life, that no one's ever going to be able to replace his Sherlock. Or to let him know that he refuses to believe/accept that they will never meet again.

 

e) When Sherlock stretches out his hand to say goodbye to John, you can clearly see John hesitating, considering if he should just go for the handshake, say something more or probably go for a hug. I think going for a hug would have caused both of them to break down and start crying - in front of other people (wand worst of all: Mycroft). Knowing them both, none of them would actually have wanted that, so the handshake was the most they could go for.

 

To me, this scene was absolutely heartbreaking and beautiful, because there was so much going on between the lines and you could see that Sherlock and John understood each other without expressing everything into words. I prefer this subtle stuff to the sopey obvious stuff because it feels so much more real and it's actually much harder to act than the obvious. But to each their own, I can fully understand that some people wanted more from that scene. Although the John-Sherlock-Friendship shipper in me would have loved a hug and emotional breakdown as well, I definitly prefer the subtle, more real and in character stuff they went for.

 

After all, I'm also thinking about another theory and interpretations of that scene and another explanation why John was confident that this would not be the last time he'd see Sherlock. But I'm going to keep that one for myself because to me, this would be the perfect opening for the next season and the more people speculating about that option, the less likely it will become that they're acutally going to write this . It's not a likely scenario anyway, but one can always dream the dream.

[Slithytove]

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I think people have such high emotional expectations they can't simply enjoy the story they get. It's the fan's curse:-)

 

Hm, I get what you're saying, and there is some truth to it, at least to us having high expectations. However; that cannot possibly explain our objections to everything. It cannot explain why I dislike Mary.

 

I have, however, watched the episode a second time, and I'm more understanding of John and Sherlock's reactions. Still dislike Mary, though. I cannot possibly buy into the "surgery" explanation - the point is, it could have easily gone wrong, and this is Sherlock we're talking about! I'm sorry, but... what were the writers thinking? I hope they were just trying to make it easier for us if and when Mary dies, but since a lot of people love her, I doubt it.

 

Overall, I like the episode better after a second viewing, as I did with TEH and TSoT, but because of my feelings about Mary, I cannot love it. It is a remarkable episode in many ways and I particularly like Sherlock in it, but it is a bit too dark for my taste.

I agree with what you say - a shot to the body, where you could easily hit major organs and which results in the victim nearly dying of shock and pain and then flat-lining on the operating table, is hardly "surgery." Then she goes looking for him again , with a gun. Are we in any doubt that, if he had not agreed to stay silent, it would have been bullet-through-the-head time? Only John's hidden presence prevented that option.

 

I think it is fairly clear that Mary's past crimes must be fairly dreadful. John was a soldier and is more pragmatic in his attitude to killing than most of us would be. For instance, he shoots the cabbie without hesitation to save Sherlock. Even if he has not confided in Mary about this incident, she knows about his military background and about his attitudes in general. Yet she knows that, if he reads about her past, he will no longer love her. This suggests that she has done things which he would find unforgivable. So we can assume that her killings are not all ones which John, as an ex-soldier, might be able to justify - e.g. taking out a terrorist before he can kill innocent people. If knowledge of her past would destroy John's love, presumably some of it must be because she has been, as Magnussen says, "a wicked girl" and done unforgivable things. Maybe it was when she was a freelance. Mercenary killers tend to be employed by criminals or by terrorist organisations (e.g. in real life, the hiring of hitman Carlos the Jackal in a plot to kill the President of France.) Maybe she worked for Moriarty - that would be interesting.

 

I can't believe John would forgive her and just make jokes about mowing the lawn. I want to slap him.

[sherlockandjohn]

After having re-visited part of TEH, I find myself sympathising much more with John. I must have been blind before. Think about it: Sherlock pretends to be dead for two years, then comes back and tries to make light of the situation. Mary lies to him from the start, and in order to cover up her secrets, she puts a bullet to John's best friend and risks his life. Why does everything have to happen to John? I completely feel his anger when he kicks the chair and shouts "Why is everything my fault?" and when he asks "Is everyone I know a psychopath?" Sherlock and Mary have the nerves to indicate that John likes it.

 

Then again, maybe he really does. Maybe he really always liked that Sherlock was a sociopath. I know I do, at least to some extent, so why should John be any different? He obviously doesn't like all aspects of it, but he is attracted to danger. Perhaps it's just me who needs to come to terms with that.

 

But I'll never like Mary. Nope. She shot Sherlock. That is off-limits.

[sherlockandjohn]

 

I can't believe John would forgive her and just make jokes about mowing the lawn. I want to slap him.

 

 

I mostly just want to slap Mary. Well, maybe I want to slap John, too - not for forgiving her past, but for putting up with what she did to Sherlock. I understand why Sherlock can forgive her; it's easier when it's one self who's been hurt, but what if Mary had put a bullet in John's chest? Would Sherlock forgive her then? I think not! Sherlock may defend Mary, saying that she tried not to kill him, but simply incapacitate him - this may be logical, clinical, and if carried out to perfection, maybe it should work out perfectly - but the point still is that she did it! She did it to Sherlock. Now, Sherlock can say all he likes about the importance of logic over love, but where is the logic in his own actions towards the end? He killed a man out of love for Mary and John - out of love for someone who had nearly killed him! He can say all he wants about it, but he has proven once and for all that love is a powerful motivator. Who does he love the most? John. Ergo; if Mary had shot at John, regardless her intentions, would he really have just said, "Good shot, nice surgery"? If so, he is a darker person than I care to think of. It actually deeply disturbs me to think of Sherlock that way.

[Loekie]

I can imagine that Sherlock found Magnussen a greater villain than Moriarty, but I found Moriarty more villain.What Moriarty did with Sherlock was destroying his personality. A more evil thing is hardly possible. I don't understand it when the writers say that Sherlock likes Moriarty. Come on... What Moriarty did with other personalities in the previous episodes was not nice either.

[Slithytove]

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I can't believe John would forgive her and just make jokes about mowing the lawn. I want to slap him.

 

I mostly just want to slap Mary. Well, maybe I want to slap John, too - not for forgiving her past, but for putting up with what she did to Sherlock. I understand why Sherlock can forgive her; it's easier when it's one self who's been hurt, but what if Mary had put a bullet in John's chest? Would Sherlock forgive her then? I think not! Sherlock may defend Mary, saying that she tried not to kill him, but simply incapacitate him - this may be logical, clinical, and if carried out to perfection, maybe it should work out perfectly - but the point still is that she did it! She did it to Sherlock. Now, Sherlock can say all he likes about the importance of logic over love, but where is the logic in his own actions towards the end? He killed a man out of love for Mary and John - out of love for someone who had nearly killed him! He can say all he wants about it, but he has proven once and for all that love is a powerful motivator. Who does he love the most? John. Ergo; if Mary had shot at John, regardless her intentions, would he really have just said, "Good shot, nice surgery"? If so, he is a darker person than I care to think of. It actually deeply disturbs me to think of Sherlock that way.

Well, exactly. I don't believe Sherlock would ever forgive Mary for shooting John. He threw a CIA agent out of a window several times just for scaring Mrs Hudson and hurting her a bit! I think he would be ruthless in extracting revenge against anyone who seriously injured John.

 

Certainly John has been through an awful time. Sherlock tried to make light of the pain he had caused, but that is what he always does. He always tries to turn painful, intense moments into a joke. Like the moment of parting, when he seems to be on the verge of telling John exactly how he feels, and then passes it off with a joke about Sherlock being a girl's name. However, John is equally flippant about Mary's criminal past and doesn't even want to know about it.

 

If my best friend faked their suicide in front of me and then disappeared for a couple of years, I might never get over it. However, if my spouse admitted to having killed a lot of people and nearly murdering my dearest friend to keep them silent, I wouldn't even want to get over it. I certainly wouldn't give them a hug and say, in effect, that it was just water under the bridge. And I would sure as hell want to know who they had murdered and why.

 

On a more cheerful note, I like the way that they have, by the smallest touches, made Anderson more human and almost a friend to Sherlock. He is even there in the mind palace, helping to save Sherlock's life. Quite a promotion!

[Slithytove]

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Mary, however, is a murderer. She deliberately kills. She broke in, she hurt all those people that were simply working for Magnussen. Then she tries to kill him. It was deliberate. That is murder.

No. Mary is not a murderer. She, like John, is a killer. As was made explicit in the "flicking" scene, CAM had threatened to have men kill her. As such, her action was self-defense, not murder.

 

 

 

 

 

Magnussen tells John he has the contact details of people who hate her, and that he will contact them unless John allows him to humiliate him. However, this is not the reason Mary herself gives for going after Magnussen. She says he has information about her which would put her in prison for the rest of her life. She does not say Magnussen threatened to expose her to the people who want revenge, nor does Magnussen say he has threatened her in this way. We don't even know if Mary is aware that he has these contact details. We only know that she knows he has material which would result in her imprisonment.

 

Therefore it is not self-defence which motivates her attack on his premises but an attempt to remove evidence which could lead to prosecution.

[sherlockandjohn]

I think I may have had a bit of a revelation... which will not be a revelation to anyone else, I'm sure, but for me it is.

 

Sherlock is exactly what he claims to be, and what he demonstrates to be: A sociopath. I am a romantic, so I tend to romanticise him, but this episode has got my wheels turning and my emotions in uproar like never before (at least not over fiction). I may be starting to get a new perspective, partly thanks to all of our discussions in this forum.

 

A definition of 'sociopath' says: "A person with a psychopathic personality whose behavior is anti-social, often criminal, and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience." Perhaps I should have looked this up the first time I heard Sherlock say it. Maybe this is the person the writers have been trying to portray all along, and I was somewhat blinded by my wish to romanticise him. I never like Irene Adler, because she brought out a side to Sherlock that I didn't like. I disliked his interest in her. I still do, by all means - but I can hardly blame the writers for that. Anyway, it was easier to overlook with Irene than it is with Mary.

 

Sherlock himself indicates that he and Mary are alike when John asks: "Is everyone I know a psychopath?" Sherlock answers: "Yes". And some of the tendencies of a sociopath, from the above description, certainly fit Mary too. They are probably not so different, and Sherlock knows it, which is why he defends her.

 

That doesn't mean I like it, but on the other hand I can't say it makes me stop loving Sherlock. There is so much I love about him. So, as in real life, I'm starting to think that I'll have to love the whole 'package'. I don't have to like everything, but I may have to forgive. At least if I want to continue watching the show.

 

I'll have to consider this some more.

[Dalwhat]

 

 

I can't believe John would forgive her and just make jokes about mowing the lawn. I want to slap him.

 

 

I mostly just want to slap Mary. Well, maybe I want to slap John, too - not for forgiving her past, but for putting up with what she did to Sherlock. I understand why Sherlock can forgive her; it's easier when it's one self who's been hurt, but what if Mary had put a bullet in John's chest? Would Sherlock forgive her then? I think not! Sherlock may defend Mary, saying that she tried not to kill him, but simply incapacitate him - this may be logical, clinical, and if carried out to perfection, maybe it should work out perfectly - but the point still is that she did it! She did it to Sherlock. Now, Sherlock can say all he likes about the importance of logic over love, but where is the logic in his own actions towards the end? He killed a man out of love for Mary and John - out of love for someone who had nearly killed him! He can say all he wants about it, but he has proven once and for all that love is a powerful motivator. Who does he love the most? John. Ergo; if Mary had shot at John, regardless her intentions, would he really have just said, "Good shot, nice surgery"? If so, he is a darker person than I care to think of. It actually deeply disturbs me to think of Sherlock that way.

 

 

All this talk of love and yet we're talking about almost an entire cast of sociopaths.....?

[leanne_maybe]

Okay, so, hi everyone. First post. Gosh,  haven't been on a good old discussion forum for a show since I was watching LOST. 

 

 Hurrah! Another Lost fan! Hope the ending to Sherlock isn't as disappointing.

 

 

 the most painful part of the Mind Palace (No, I lied, Redbeard ;_; ) was that Molly seems to have been his doctor in this moment, not John. Sherlock, I feel, we see systematically trying to cut John out of his life in this episode to the point he has replaced Dr. Watson with Ms. Hooper as the one to get gunshot advise from. He didn't just redecorate Baker St. He redecorated his Mind Palace as well. Ouch.

 

I hadn't thought of it like that, but I think you're right, he does. Like the reverse in TSOT, when he says to Mycroft "Not you!" and to John "YOU!" - he needed John one last time then.

 

(turns out I can't do quotes properly either, except  if it's one big quote, so am following the trend and doing my comments in pink within the quote!)

 

[sherlockandjohn]

 

 

 

I can't believe John would forgive her and just make jokes about mowing the lawn. I want to slap him.

 

 

I mostly just want to slap Mary. Well, maybe I want to slap John, too - not for forgiving her past, but for putting up with what she did to Sherlock. I understand why Sherlock can forgive her; it's easier when it's one self who's been hurt, but what if Mary had put a bullet in John's chest? Would Sherlock forgive her then? I think not! Sherlock may defend Mary, saying that she tried not to kill him, but simply incapacitate him - this may be logical, clinical, and if carried out to perfection, maybe it should work out perfectly - but the point still is that she did it! She did it to Sherlock. Now, Sherlock can say all he likes about the importance of logic over love, but where is the logic in his own actions towards the end? He killed a man out of love for Mary and John - out of love for someone who had nearly killed him! He can say all he wants about it, but he has proven once and for all that love is a powerful motivator. Who does he love the most? John. Ergo; if Mary had shot at John, regardless her intentions, would he really have just said, "Good shot, nice surgery"? If so, he is a darker person than I care to think of. It actually deeply disturbs me to think of Sherlock that way.

 

 

All this talk of love and yet we're talking about almost an entire cast of sociopaths.....?

 

 

You mean to say that sociopaths can't love? I'm sorry, I'm not sure I understand your comment; could you explain?

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

A true sociopath can fake emotions, but rarely actually feels any. Sherlock calls himself a "high functioning sociopath" but it has been made very clear that he can and does love. So, is he, as many people suspect, just using the label as a shield and a blind to try and keep people from getting to close? It may have worked early on, when all he had was big brother, Mycroft, drilling it into his young head that attachments and "getting involved" brought nothing but pain and heartbreak, codeword, Redbeard, a beloved dog and pet that he had to watch being put down. But since meeting John, Molly, and Lestrade and Mrs. Hudson, that facade is starting to crumble and fall away.

[Slithytove]

A sociopath's emotions are egocentric - narcissistic, unable to feel empathy, extreme sense of their own importance, etc. They tend to care about people insofar as the person is useful to them. Though they can be very possessive regarding that person, I do not know if you could call it love.

 

I would like to believe Sherlock is a true sociopath because I want him to be dark, sardonic and complicated. Sociopaths are usually good at mimicking emotions which they do not feel, and I'd like to believe Sherlock has been doing this. I want to believe he has been faking his devotion to Mary and is just waiting for the right moment to elbow her off a cliff.

 

Sadly, his recent actions make the sociopathic diagnosis seem even less likely. A sociopath might kill to protect himself. He might kill to protect someone who is useful and thus "belongs" to him, but not if it is to his own detriment. Sherlock explicitly kills to fulfill his vow - "tell Mary she's safe now" - although he knows it will bring about his own ruin. That is not the action of a sociopath.

 

Moriarty, on the other hand...now, there's a genuine sociopath. Mary too, in my opinion. (Magnussen evidently thought so too, referring to the Watsons as "Mr and Mrs Psychopath.")

[sherlockandjohn]

By the above explanation I would say that Sherlock has many sociopathic traits, but they are diminishing. He was more of a sociopath during series 1. Sorry, this is off-topic. I am just trying to understand some of the events of HLV.

[Sherlock_luvr]

Now that I've had a chance to ponder and to watch it a second time, I have a few more thoughts:

 

1)  I've seen one or two people here think Sherlock was actually high (on the opium).  I didn't think so the first time, and I still don't (but if there's something I've missed, I'm open to seeing it).  His eyes weren't dilated, and he acted completely normally.  But the main reason I don't think he was high is because he wasn't in the "Twisted Lip" story where they took this from.

 

He was definitely high. Remember the scene with Molly doing the testing and then slapping him? That was the proof. And when Sherlock tosses Mycroft against the wall (which I loved!), he definitely looks it and even says that he is. As does John.

 

I'd like to see more of high Sherlock because we'd see a side to him we've never seen before.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Just an observation here, but in canon James Moriarty was a professor of mathematics and wrote a book called Dynamics of an Asteroid. Did anyone notice in HLV who the mathematics genius is and the book Dynamics of Mathematics that was written by this person?

[Slithytove]

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Just an observation here, but in canon James Moriarty was a professor of mathematics and wrote a book called Dynamics of an Asteroid. Did anyone notice in HLV who the mathematics genius is and the book Dynamics of Mathematics that was written by this person?

Wasn't it Mummy Holmes?

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Indeed it was! I actually laughed when I saw that. What a twist. I wonder if that will have an explanation in an up coming episode.