Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[T.o.b.y]

I've been pondering Sherlock's remark about Mary being unable to shoot CAM because her own husband would become a suspect, as they had broken into the building. It doesn't make sense to me.

 

Well, if Mary had killed both Sherlock and Magnussen and then left, the only living person in the place who did not work there and was capable of wielding a gun to good effect would have been John. Actually, if Sherlock was found badly wounded or dead and Magnussen dead, then suspicion would lie pretty heavily on John, because the police would most likely assume that Magnussen or a member of his staff shot Sherlock and then John killed Magnussen in revenge. The same gun being used would not make this scenario completely impossible. John is a force to be reckoned with; he could theoretically wrestle a weapon away from Magnussen and then use it to kill him, I am sure.

 

As for Janine letting them in, why should she confess to that? It would guarantee her getting fired and never again finding another decent job as a PA.

[Slithytove]

But.....the guard or Janine or both must surely have seen the person who attacked them.  She had to get close enough to hit them, and it's far-fetched to suppose she could creep up on both of them unseen.  They would know it couldn't have been Sherlock (too tall) and if it was John, how did he manage to change out of the all-black outfit and into his normal clothes?

 

If John had wrestled the murder weapon from CAM's hands after he shot Sherlock, what did he do with it then?

 

Mary "left by the way she came", which is very vague but presumably means she broke in, as it's unlikely that Janine would have invited a ninja-style assassin into the office.  It wouldn't be beyond Lestrade's capabilities to investigate John's claim that a third party, i.e. the gunman, had been present and had forced an entry into the building.

 

And Janine might want to protect her job - though I doubt it, as she later enraged CAM by selling her story to the rival tabloids - but it seems unlikely she would lie about letting them into the office, if it meant that John would go to prison for life for murders he didn't commit.  She would have to be incredibly selfish to make him pay such a price, just to keep her job.

[jesskayding]

Yeah. I always thought they should have called the police right away. I'm sure Lestrade would have figured out someway to let them off with a slap on the wrist, for sneaking their way into Magnussen's office. But then we wouldn't have had that awesome Mind Palace scene with Sherlock fighting his way back to life to save his friend John.

 

"Was it something I said!" -

[Zain]

 

Anyway, why would he have shot Sherlock? Sherlock says she couldn't shoot CAM because of John becoming a suspect, but surely the fact that he himself would witness the murder would be a bigger problem for her. The only scenario in which John could become a suspect is one where Sherlock is dead too, otherwise he could immediately exonerate John. So she would have to kill Sherlock too. Now, the police might suspect John had a motive for killing CAM but why would he kill Sherlock as well? Seems highly unlikely.

 

 

To protect herself. As you said, John would never have been tried for murder/attempted murder due to a lack of evidence and the fact that the witness reports are in his favour. Even the breaking and entering case is rather shaky at best, because Janine let them in.

 

However, John would have been severely under scrutiny. They would have had to examine closely if he wasn't related to Magnussen's death (which could have been retribution for Sherlock's death). The attention on John would have been quite problematic for Mary. The police may be slow, but they are not incapable of collecting data and profiling him, which includes a standard background check of his wife as well.

If she had killed both, she would have put herself into a lot of danger. If she had gone only for Magnussen... that's suicide. Then Sherlock, and John by default, would have definitely been under even more scrutiny. 

 

At least, that's my take on it. Alas, a lot of people will disagree. 

[Arcadia]

I'll just give my usual response; almost nothing about this episode makes empirical sense. But most of it does make emotional sense; if you're willing to give yourself over to it.

The question in my mind is whether that's because it's a brilliant piece of writing, or if it's because Moffat thinks he's so much smarter than us that we'll swallow whatever he dishes out. Or possibly even both. Which side I take is largely dependent on how kindly I feel towards him on any given day. At the moment, post-Emmys, I'm in a rather mellow mood.....

[Carol the Dabbler]

But.....the guard or Janine or both must surely have seen the person who attacked them.  She had to get close enough to hit them, and it's far-fetched to suppose she could creep up on both of them unseen.  They would know it couldn't have been Sherlock (too tall) and if it was John, how did he manage to change out of the all-black outfit and into his normal clothes?

Are we discussing A] what definitely happened (based on what we saw), B] what could have happened (without contradicting what we saw), C] what Mary knows happened, or D] what Sherlock knows happened?

 

Your original question was posed from Sherlock's point of view (i.e., D), so the answer is presumably that he does not know, at least not for certain. It seems entirely possible to me that neither Janine nor the guard saw any more than perhaps a flash of movement out of the corner of an eye. We didn't see the guard when Janine was talking with Sherlock on the intercom, so he may have been in another room. If so, Mary could have clobbered Janine from behind while the guard was still elsewhere, then waited out of sight for him to come back, and clobbered him from behind as well.

 

Mary would have a pretty good idea whether either of them saw her at all, but Sherlock would not. Judging only by what he saw, they might be able to provide a positive ID, or they might have seen her only briefly, or they might have no indication whatsoever of their assailant's description (not even height or clothing). Mary asks whether John is in the building -- if Sherlock is correct, that she asks because she's afraid of implicating John, then she's presumably fairly certain that she was not seen. So maybe Sherlock assumes that she's right.

[T.o.b.y]

 

Anyway, why would he have shot Sherlock? Sherlock says she couldn't shoot CAM because of John becoming a suspect, but surely the fact that he himself would witness the murder would be a bigger problem for her. The only scenario in which John could become a suspect is one where Sherlock is dead too, otherwise he could immediately exonerate John. So she would have to kill Sherlock too. Now, the police might suspect John had a motive for killing CAM but why would he kill Sherlock as well? Seems highly unlikely.

 

 

To protect herself. As you said, John would never have been tried for murder/attempted murder due to a lack of evidence and the fact that the witness reports are in his favour. Even the breaking and entering case is rather shaky at best, because Janine let them in.

 

However, John would have been severely under scrutiny. They would have had to examine closely if he wasn't related to Magnussen's death (which could have been retribution for Sherlock's death). The attention on John would have been quite problematic for Mary. The police may be slow, but they are not incapable of collecting data and profiling him, which includes a standard background check of his wife as well.

If she had killed both, she would have put herself into a lot of danger. If she had gone only for Magnussen... that's suicide. Then Sherlock, and John by default, would have definitely been under even more scrutiny. 

 

At least, that's my take on it. Alas, a lot of people will disagree. 

 

 

Not necessarily. I agree that the danger of implicating John at all and getting him into trouble would be enough to change Mary's course of action. She does love John, I am convinced. She'd want to protect him just as much as herself.

 

I'll just give my usual response; almost nothing about this episode makes empirical sense. But most of it does make emotional sense; if you're willing to give yourself over to it.

 

Oh, I don't know, to me it makes about as much sense as any Sherlock Holmes story ever did, and certainly more sense than some things that happen for real. Funny, I never got the impression that His Last Vow had such huge logic problems. I didn't warm to it right from the start, but I certainly didn't feel it was because of a lack of reason. But then, I never spotted the plot holes in The Blind Banker, either. I guess I am so Sherlocked, that whatever he "explains" in his magic voice I take to be perfectly sound...

 

It seems entirely possible to me that neither Janine nor the guard saw any more than perhaps a flash of movement out of the corner of an eye. We didn't see the guard when Janine was talking with Sherlock on the intercom, so he may have been in another room. If so, Mary could have clobbered Janine from behind while the guard was still elsewhere, then waited out of sight for him to come back, and clobbered him from behind as well.

 

Mary would have a pretty good idea whether either of them saw her at all, but Sherlock would not. Judging only by what he saw, they might be able to provide a positive ID, or they might have seen her only briefly, or they might have no indication whatsoever of their assailant's description (not even height or clothing). Mary asks whether John is in the building -- if Sherlock is correct, that she asks because she's afraid of implicating John, then she's presumably fairly certain that she was not seen. So maybe Sherlock assumes that she's right.

 

I agree with you there, Carol. I don't think it'd be impossible for Mary to knock out both Janine and the guard without either of them getting a good look at her. After all, she's supposed to be a pro...

[jesskayding]

Hay upon watching the few movies I've seen as of late, HLV makes a whole lot of sense!

[Slithytove]

Frankly, I think the "John would be a suspect" comment is another of those throwaway lines used to plug a plot hole, in the hope that viewers won't say, "Hang on a minute.......". They had to give some reason why Mary didn't shoot CAM, because his death was being saved for Sherlock and the grand finale.

 

Personally, I can't see that John was at any serious risk of being arrested. As Janine had let him and Sherlock into the office, he could not be accused of breaking in. Even if the police thought CAM shot Sherlock and then John shot CAM, at what point would anyone have laid out Janine and the guard? How did John get the gun off CAM, if the latter had already shot Sherlock and was evidently not afraid to shoot to kill? And what did he do with it, after he had used it?

 

The obvious reason for not shooting CAM would be the presence of an eyewitness - Sherlock. But she shoots Sherlock, causing life-threatening injuries, so she might as well kill CAM as she originally planned as it is very likely that Sherlock will die too. However, that would deprive us of the dramatic ending, so there has to be some reason why she doesn't do it - but I don't think it's very convincing.

[T.o.b.y]

The obvious reason for not shooting CAM would be the presence of an eyewitness - Sherlock. But she shoots Sherlock, causing life-threatening injuries, so she might as well kill CAM as she originally planned as it is very likely that Sherlock will die too. However, that would deprive us of the dramatic ending, so there has to be some reason why she doesn't do it - but I don't think it's very convincing.

 

... because you don't believe Mary didn't shoot to kill Sherlock. Am I right? The way you interpret the episode, the "surgery" theory is bullshit, invented for Sherlock for some odd reason, and Mary didn't really take any great pains to preserve his life.

 

If, on the other hand, one accepts the show's claim that Mary did her best not to kill Sherlock, then she knew she'd have to deal with him once he woke up. Now, imagine she had shot Magnussen. Magnussen's dead body would have been found in the same room with Sherlock's injured one. Sherlock would be the only one who could tell who killed Magnussen. And Mary did not trust Sherlock to keep silent on her behalf. He had stepped in to prevent the murder of Magnussen, why should she expect he'd be willing to help cover it up? He would be, of course, but Mary doesn't know he is that way. She doesn't half understand Sherlock. She hopes she can maybe wheedle / bully him into keeping her secret from John, but I can totally picture why she'd think her chances of that would be lower if she also had to talk him into covering up her murder, when solving murders is kind of what he does for a living.

[Slithytove]

Why would she think she couldn't persuade him to be silent about the murder of someone else, and yet expect him to say nothing about his own attempted murder? Ot, if you believe she didn't mean to kill him, to say nothing about the grievous bodily harm she had inflicted on him?

 

Seems to be expecting a hell of a lot.

[Zain]

I suppose we can all agree that the in-story causality behind the events is on shaky grounds. Unless they decide to get back to it in the fourth season, it will remain so.

 

I do not think we will ever reach an agreement on this topic, especially because it involves moral, psychological, and juridical issues and perspectives, all of which vary from person to person, from ethnicity to ethnicity, from country to country.

I suppose one good thing came out of this for me (apart from being part of a lively debate): I now have got a much better grasp of the English judical system after I read up on it to find out the "context" in which all those actions would have to be put.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Frankly, I think the "John would be a suspect" comment is another of those throwaway lines used to plug a plot hole, in the hope that viewers won't say, "Hang on a minute.......". They had to give some reason why Mary didn't shoot CAM, because his death was being saved for Sherlock and the grand finale.

 

Personally, I can't see that John was at any serious risk of being arrested. As Janine had let him and Sherlock into the office, he could not be accused of breaking in....

 

While Moftiss do seem to specialize in using dialog spoken rapidly and confidently in order to plug plot holes (cf. John's exposition on why the Tong spray-painted the death-threat code behind a row of library books), I don't think this one is quite so readily dismissed.  For example, the "Janine could give John an alibi" explanation fails on two levels:

 

1.  Janine did not know that John came in with Sherlock.  Sherlock had carefully kept John out of security-camera view, so Janine had no reason to even suspect that John was with him.

 

2.  Even if Janine had known about John, Mary apparently didn't even know that Sherlock was in the building.  If she had, why would she have gone ahead and confronted CAM, knowing that she could be interrupted any second?  And even if she had been rash enough to do that, why would she have stood with her back to the door?  So she didn't know Sherlock was there, and therefore she had no idea that John was there either, not until she saw Sherlock.  And she had no way of knowing how either of them got in.

 

I can see only one possible flaw in that reasoning -- what if Mary wanted Sherlock to find her with CAM?  Perhaps she overheard John's conversation with Sherlock, so she knew they were meeting at CAM's building and surmised that Sherlock wanted to gain access to CAM's private area.  So she broke into CAM's office and hid until Janine let Sherlock into the elevator, then quickly knocked out Janine and the guard and went up to CAM's flat, where she carefully set herself up to be caught in the act by Sherlock.  (It's also possible that Janine was in on the whole plan -- that's already been discussed).  But if you can figure out why Mary would have wanted to do that, you have an even more convoluted mind than I do!

 

[sfmpco]

Just finished watching HLV for the umpteenth time... Lots of unanswered questions about the beginning.  

 

1.  When we first see Appledor after Magnussen is questioned by Lady Smallwood and her government peers, are we only in his mind place for that whole sequence?  Because...

 

2.  Where are they when he licks Lady Smallwood's face?  I always assumed she was in some stuffy old government office space because she clearly seems to be working at her desk.  If they're not supposed to have any communication outside of that hearing, why are they even in the same room together?

 

3.  Again, where are they that he would say to the butler (?) "Lady Smallwood's bill is on me.  See to it."  Because the butler guy clearly seems to respond to Magnussen's authority and makes no attempt to intervene when CAM licks her face.

 

4.  I think this inquiry must have happened almost on the heels of John and Mary's wedding.  Lady Smallwood was likely the catalyst that propelled Sherlock into a deep hatred of Magnussen.  SH does have a soft spot for women in that he doesn't like to see them hurt or abused, and she probably opened the floodgates of information on other CAM problems, including the fact that SH considered Mycroft under CAM's thumb.

 

5.  Sherlock had to formulate a plan to get Magnussen's attention and fortunately had already developed a little rapport with Janine at the wedding, and he began to fake date her for information while at the same time dabbling into drugs again in an attempt to get Magnussen's attention, and all of this happened within the month after the wedding.

 

6.  Interesting later when CAM says that Sherlock's pressure point is John, but John's pressure point is not Sherlock.  It's Mary.  And that, of course, is how it should be in a marriage. John doesn't deny it and Sherlock doesn't respond to that with any sort of jealousy.  

 

7. Sherlock was working solo again and wasn't in communication with John even after the return from the honeymoon although he was in communication with Mary because he and Mary had had discussions about John's 7-lb weight gain since getting married.  Must be sympathetic pregnancy weight (LOL). Sherlock actually had quite a deep affection and love for Mary.

 

8.  All the bathroom giggles and sounds between Janine and Sherlock - not sure exactly what he was doing but he was faking it because he knew specifically that John now knew about Janine so he had to keep up the ruse - to a point, of course.

 

Might watch it again tomorrow.  Want to have it really fresh in my mind for the Oct. 5 screening.

 

 

[Slithytove]

 

Frankly, I think the "John would be a suspect" comment is another of those throwaway lines used to plug a plot hole, in the hope that viewers won't say, "Hang on a minute.......". They had to give some reason why Mary didn't shoot CAM, because his death was being saved for Sherlock and the grand finale.

 

Personally, I can't see that John was at any serious risk of being arrested. As Janine had let him and Sherlock into the office, he could not be accused of breaking in....

 

While Moftiss do seem to specialize in using dialog spoken rapidly and confidently in order to plug plot holes (cf. John's exposition on why the Tong spray-painted the death-threat code behind a row of library books), I don't think this one is quite so readily dismissed.  For example, the "Janine could give John an alibi" explanation fails on two levels:

 

1.  Janine did not know that John came in with Sherlock.  Sherlock had carefully kept John out of security-camera view, so Janine had no reason to even suspect that John was with him.

 

2.  Even if Janine had known about John, Mary apparently didn't even know that Sherlock was in the building.  If she had, why would she have gone ahead and confronted CAM, knowing that she could be interrupted any second?  And even if she had been rash enough to do that, why would she have stood with her back to the door?  So she didn't know Sherlock was there, and therefore she had no idea that John was there either, not until she saw Sherlock.  And she had no way of knowing how either of them got in.

 

I can see only one possible flaw in that reasoning -- what if Mary wanted Sherlock to find her with CAM?  Perhaps she overheard John's conversation with Sherlock, so she knew they were meeting at CAM's building and surmised that Sherlock wanted to gain access to CAM's private area.  So she broke into CAM's office and hid until Janine let Sherlock into the elevator, then quickly knocked out Janine and the guard and went up to CAM's flat, where she carefully set herself up to be caught in the act by Sherlock.  (It's also possible that Janine was in on the whole plan -- that's already been discussed).  But if you can figure out why Mary would have wanted to do that, you have an even more convoluted mind than I do!

 

 

I agree that Janine didn't know John was with Sherlock, but I don't think it would be very hard for him to convince the police that that was how he had got into the building.  No disrespect to John, but nothing that we know about him suggests he would be capable of breaking into a heavily guarded penthouse, as Mary presumably did.  In fact, I would like to know how she did it.  Presumably Janine didn't let her in as well, so did she scale the walls of the office building?  She must have felt a lot better during the first trimester than most of us do!

 

Mary did not, presumably, know Sherlock was in the building, otherwise she would either have abandoned her plans and fled or got on with killing CAM instead of standing over him whilst he begged for his life.  Does it make much difference to her supposed reluctance to kill him for fear of implicating John?  Given that she is an assassin, her most likely reason for asking if John was with Sherlock would be to find out whether she had got to kill him as well.  She's a professional killer - how long would she retain her liberty, or stay alive, if she allowed sentiment to cloud her judgement?

 

Zain is probably right in saying that we're unlikely to agree on these issues, as they all reflect the amount of Mary's culpability and we are clearly divided over that issue.  I suppose it helps to explain why, in real life, one sector of the community can feel strongly that a person is guilty whilst another sector believes just as strongly in his innocence.  O. J. Simpson springs to mind, but I'm sure there are many other examples.

 

When you think about it, CAM's security arrangements are seriously flawed.  Given his wealth, power and the fact that he must have many bitter enemies, you'd think he would be better protected.  Strangers are able to access his private lift, from a public floor of his office building and in full view of his employees, without being questioned.  An assassin breaks into his penthouse, somehow, and gets past his PA and security guard to threaten him with murder.  An armed man (John) is allowed into his home without being searched.  And does he have no security cameras, either at his office or his home?  Wouldn't the police want to see the footage of Sherlock's shooting, even if Mycroft managed to prevent an investigation of CAM's murder?  In real life, the newspaper tycoon Robert Maxwell was so obsessed with security that he even bugged his own home, so he could find out what his wife and kids were saying about him!  You'd think CAM would want that level of security too....

[T.o.b.y]

 

When you think about it, CAM's security arrangements are seriously flawed.  Given his wealth, power and the fact that he must have many bitter enemies, you'd think he would be better protected.  Strangers are able to access his private lift, from a public floor of his office building and in full view of his employees, without being questioned.  An assassin breaks into his penthouse, somehow, and gets past his PA and security guard to threaten him with murder.  An armed man (John) is allowed into his home without being searched.  And does he have no security cameras, either at his office or his home?  Wouldn't the police want to see the footage of Sherlock's shooting, even if Mycroft managed to prevent an investigation of CAM's murder?  In real life, the newspaper tycoon Robert Maxwell was so obsessed with security that he even bugged his own home, so he could find out what his wife and kids were saying about him!  You'd think CAM would want that level of security too....

 

If he was a sensible man, maybe. But he wasn't. And he thought he was untouchable. People wouldn't dare to try and harm him, because he was so powerful and knew so much about everybody and had them all in his grip. I think that's what Magnussen believed. That was his weak spot. He expected nothing less than for Sherlock Holmes or anybody to just shoot him.

 

I think a lot of the plot holes people see in fiction (any fiction, not just Sherlock) stem from us expecting fictional people to act in a much more rational manner than people do in real life.

 

 

 

[jesskayding]

 

 

 

 

When you think about it, CAM's security arrangements are seriously flawed. Given his wealth, power and the fact that he must have many bitter enemies, you'd think he would be better protected. Strangers are able to access his private lift, from a public floor of his office building and in full view of his employees, without being questioned. An assassin breaks into his penthouse, somehow, and gets past his PA and security guard to threaten him with murder. An armed man (John) is allowed into his home without being searched. And does he have no security cameras, either at his office or his home? Wouldn't the police want to see the footage of Sherlock's shooting, even if Mycroft managed to prevent an investigation of CAM's murder? In real life, the newspaper tycoon Robert Maxwell was so obsessed with security that he even bugged his own home, so he could find out what his wife and kids were saying about him! You'd think CAM would want that level of security too....

If he was a sensible man, maybe. But he wasn't. And he thought he was untouchable. People wouldn't dare to try and harm him, because he was so powerful and knew so much about everybody and had them all in his grip. I think that's what Magnussen believed. That was his weak spot. He expected nothing less than for Sherlock Holmes or anybody to just shoot him.

 

I think a lot of the plot holes people see in fiction (any fiction, not just Sherlock) stem from us expecting fictional people to act in a much more rational manner than people do in real life.

 

 

 

 

Not to mention, trained assassins seem to be able to penetrate governments of armed countries, soooooooo I don't see how Magnussen's office would be a challenge to Mary.

[Carol the Dabbler]

1.  When we first see Appledor after Magnussen is questioned by Lady Smallwood and her government peers, are we only in his mind place for that whole sequence?  Because...

 

2.  Where are they when he licks Lady Smallwood's face?  I always assumed she was in some stuffy old government office space because she clearly seems to be working at her desk.  If they're not supposed to have any communication outside of that hearing, why are they even in the same room together?

 

3.  Again, where are they that he would say to the butler (?) "Lady Smallwood's bill is on me.  See to it."  Because the butler guy clearly seems to respond to Magnussen's authority and makes no attempt to intervene when CAM licks her face.

My best guess is that they're in a private room at a private club where CAM is a member. That's very Conan-Doylish, at least.

 

5.  Sherlock had to formulate a plan to get Magnussen's attention and fortunately had already developed a little rapport with Janine at the wedding, and he began to fake date her for information while at the same time dabbling into drugs again in an attempt to get Magnussen's attention, and all of this happened within the month after the wedding.

 

7. Sherlock was working solo again and wasn't in communication with John even after the return from the honeymoon although he was in communication with Mary because he and Mary had had discussions about John's 7-lb weight gain since getting married.  Must be sympathetic pregnancy weight (LOL). Sherlock actually had quite a deep affection and love for Mary.

I assume you're basing these statements on John's comment at the beginning of "Last Vow" that he hasn't seen Sherlock for a month -- so it's been at least a month since the wedding. But it could have been longer -- they may have seen each other a few times since the honeymoon, just not in the past month.  Your interpretation is quite possibly true, just not necessarily true.

 

I agree that Janine didn't know John was with Sherlock, but I don't think it would be very hard for him to convince the police that that was how he had got into the building.  No disrespect to John, but nothing that we know about him suggests he would be capable of breaking into a heavily guarded penthouse, as Mary presumably did.  In fact, I would like to know how she did it.  Presumably Janine didn't let her in as well, so did she scale the walls of the office building?  She must have felt a lot better during the first trimester than most of us do!

I've wondered the same thing! If she didn't climb up, then I'm very puzzled by her outfit -- it literally screams, "Hey, I'm an assassin!" But it seems to me it would have been a whole lot simpler for her to enter via some ruse, maybe swiping a generic ID card as Sherlock did, and then pretending to belong there.

 

OK, so you're saying that Sherlock wouldn't have thought John was a likely suspect. That makes sense, but I'm pretty sure what we were discussing was why Sherlock would think that Mary thought so.  I suspect his reason was that he had told her John was just downstairs.

 

Zain is probably right in saying that we're unlikely to agree on these issues, as they all reflect the amount of Mary's culpability and we are clearly divided over that issue.  I suppose it helps to explain why, in real life, one sector of the community can feel strongly that a person is guilty whilst another sector believes just as strongly in his innocence.  O. J. Simpson springs to mind, but I'm sure there are many other examples.

I can't speak for anyone else, but it's my personal attitude that Mary isn't so much "innocent" as that her actions are understandable -- or at least that it's possible to interpret her actions in a "caught between a rock and a hard spot" sort of way. As I've probably said before, I choose to take the most positive view of Mary that I can honestly justify to myself, because if I took a negative view of her, I'd probably stop loving the show, and I don't want that to happen. So it's simple self-preservation.

 

[Slithytove]

 

 

 

 

 

When you think about it, CAM's security arrangements are seriously flawed. Given his wealth, power and the fact that he must have many bitter enemies, you'd think he would be better protected. Strangers are able to access his private lift, from a public floor of his office building and in full view of his employees, without being questioned. An assassin breaks into his penthouse, somehow, and gets past his PA and security guard to threaten him with murder. An armed man (John) is allowed into his home without being searched. And does he have no security cameras, either at his office or his home? Wouldn't the police want to see the footage of Sherlock's shooting, even if Mycroft managed to prevent an investigation of CAM's murder? In real life, the newspaper tycoon Robert Maxwell was so obsessed with security that he even bugged his own home, so he could find out what his wife and kids were saying about him! You'd think CAM would want that level of security too....

If he was a sensible man, maybe. But he wasn't. And he thought he was untouchable. People wouldn't dare to try and harm him, because he was so powerful and knew so much about everybody and had them all in his grip. I think that's what Magnussen believed. That was his weak spot. He expected nothing less than for Sherlock Holmes or anybody to just shoot him.

 

I think a lot of the plot holes people see in fiction (any fiction, not just Sherlock) stem from us expecting fictional people to act in a much more rational manner than people do in real life.

 

 

 

Not to mention, trained assassins seem to be able to penetrate governments of armed countries, soooooooo I don't see how Magnussen's office would be a challenge to Mary.

Well, the assassin costume would be a bit of a giveaway if she walked in the front door, so presumably she broke in. How? Climbed up the sheer walls of a modern office block, up to the penthouse, and somehow got inside? Not to mention that she was in the early stages of pregnancy, a time when you can feel nauseous just walking across a room, let alone climbing up a building!

 

I think Moftiss couldn't work out how she got in, which is why Sherlock never explained it but referred vaguely to her leaving by the same way that she had entered.

[sfmpco]

 

I think Moftiss couldn't work out how she got in, which is why Sherlock never explained it but referred vaguely to her leaving by the same way that she had entered.

 

 

When in doubt, never explain things clearly.  

[Slithytove]

 

 

 

 

Zain is probably right in saying that we're unlikely to agree on these issues, as they all reflect the amount of Mary's culpability and we are clearly divided over that issue.  I suppose it helps to explain why, in real life, one sector of the community can feel strongly that a person is guilty whilst another sector believes just as strongly in his innocence.  O. J. Simpson springs to mind, but I'm sure there are many other examples.

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but it's my personal attitude that Mary isn't so much "innocent" as that her actions are understandable -- or at least that it's possible to interpret her actions in a "caught between a rock and a hard spot" sort of way. As I've probably said before, I choose to take the most positive view of Mary that I can honestly justify to myself, because if I took a negative view of her, I'd probably stop loving the show, and I don't want that to happen. So it's simple self-preservation.

 

 

I think there is an enormous gulf between "understandable" and "forgivable".  For instance, "He found out the truth, so I killed him" is certainly understandable but it isn't in any way excusable.  Doing something bad for a logical reason - e.g. to benefit yourself in some way - makes sense but it doesn't mean it is okay to do it, and it certainly doesn't mean that other people should forgive you for it.  That's why I hate the reconciliation scene.  However, in general, I can happily carry on loving the show whilst taking a thoroughly negative view of Mary!  Of course, it bugs me that John and Sherlock seem determined to let her off the hook, but all shows have their annoying moments....

[Schlauer Fuchs]

I think Moftiss couldn't work out how she got in, which is why Sherlock never explained it but referred vaguely to her leaving by the same way that she had entered.

 

 

That is actually one thing I wondered about: If she left the way she entered, she should have met John - after all, she must have come from downstairs because she knocked out Janine and that security guy.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I thought it was pretty clear that there was more than one entrance into CAM's penthouse. There was the elevator, the way the viewer is shown and then there is the doorway Mary left by. Which was not the same door Sherlock used when he entered to find CAM being threatened. Mary didn't go back down the stairs Sherlock had used so no. She doesn't go near John's location at all.

[T.o.b.y]

 

 

 

 

 

Zain is probably right in saying that we're unlikely to agree on these issues, as they all reflect the amount of Mary's culpability and we are clearly divided over that issue.  I suppose it helps to explain why, in real life, one sector of the community can feel strongly that a person is guilty whilst another sector believes just as strongly in his innocence.  O. J. Simpson springs to mind, but I'm sure there are many other examples.

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but it's my personal attitude that Mary isn't so much "innocent" as that her actions are understandable -- or at least that it's possible to interpret her actions in a "caught between a rock and a hard spot" sort of way. As I've probably said before, I choose to take the most positive view of Mary that I can honestly justify to myself, because if I took a negative view of her, I'd probably stop loving the show, and I don't want that to happen. So it's simple self-preservation.

 

 

I think there is an enormous gulf between "understandable" and "forgivable".  For instance, "He found out the truth, so I killed him" is certainly understandable but it isn't in any way excusable. 

 

Right, but Mary didn't kill Sherlock. Now, the big question is, did she mean to, i.e. do we believe the "surgery" explanation or not. I do believe it, because Sherlock said so, and I generally go with whatever Sherlock says, because he's Sherlock. I do agree it's a pretty unlikely, weird and deeply flawed theory (I mean, if you want to injure but not kill, you don't really aim for the liver or whatever she hit), but oh well, the laws of the Sherlock universe are not quite our own anyway, so fine.

 

I believe that the show wants us to believe Mary didn't mean to kill him. The intent was not to make her appear evil, I don't think. But they took quite a chance with the character. I think it's very interesting they did so. I mean, it was pretty clear from the start that Mary would have a hard time with part of the audience. So I expected them to make her as likeable as was at all possible, and the first two episodes with her, I thought that's exactly what they were doing. But then came His Last Vow and wham! It was like they were tearing all the hard work down. Which I personally like, because if they had just let her be little Mrs Perfect, I'd have become fed up with her really quickly. 

 

She's very intriguing. There are so many open questions concerning her. I really want to know how much of her personality is real and how much is facade.

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Right, and Amanda herself believes that Mary didn't  mean to shot to kill either, Amanda interprets Mary as being very frightened at that point and over reacting. She should know more then anyone else.