Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[T.o.b.y]

 

So how do you stop Magnussen, a man with no moral compass, who has this Mind Palace to do with as he pleases?

In real life, you mean? You take away his leverage. If someone's threatening to reveal your secret or else, you reveal the secret first; then he has no more leverage. Of course, you still have to suffer the consequences of revealing your secret. It depends on what's more important to you; keeping the secret, or stopping the blackmail.

That might stop him from being a threat to you. But I think the big question is, how do you stop him from doing similar things to lots of other people? Or, as he says, to entire countries?

 

 

Yes, Carol, exactly. I think it's doing Sherlock an injustice to assume he shot Magnussen only to protect Mary. I think he did it to protect everybody, to prevent future harm to the population of England and international affairs from a bloody creep who thought himself entitled to bully anybody he fancied on any scale he thought fun.

 

I think it would probably have been quite hard, next to impossible maybe, to get anywhere with Magnussen in a legal setting. He probably knows every trick in the book, could pay for the best team of lawyers available, and blackmail his way through judge and jury until they let him go. He expressed complete and utter contempt for the "civilized" way of doing things when he visited Baker St, and mocked the English as "a nation of herbivores", who were all so "domesticated" and did nothing but stand around apologizing. In a way, Sherlock shooting him is like going, okay, you want uncivilized? Fine, here you go!

 

And I'm going to say this again, at no point does the show claim that shooting people is perfectly okay. They make a huge point about Sherlock doing it in front of witnesses, assuming full responsibility, and being essentially sentenced to die himself by his own brother. He knows it was wrong. But the problem was, at the time he did it, there was no right left. That is what the villains do, in Sherlock and in real life (as far as there are villains in real life, which I doubt): They bring out the worst in others and force them to use it.

 

I've always admired the kind of hero who is willing to sacrifice his own virtue so the other people can continue to stand around with a clean vest looking smug and judgemental and go on with their good little lives.

By the way, I loathe Mycroft even more since His Last Vow. The most powerful man in England, and he, apparently, did nothing to stop Magnussen for years. And why? "Because he never threatens anyone of importance". Well, thank you very, very much, Mycroft! Good to know that it's perfectly fine with you if us ordinary goldfish get tyrannized over by a megalomaniac media mogul as long as he doesn't mess with your club of stuffy old rich people (which he did, by the way, but never mind). And then Sherlock finally actually does something, and Mycroft has him sent on a death mission, just so he won't be accused of "brotherly compassion" (Mycroft, if you're worried about that, why not show them a video of what happened in Serbia. I bet you had that filmed, you know, for your evening entertainment on a rainy day). I think Lady Smallwood's comment "hardly merciful, Mr Holmes" is a hint that if he had wanted to, he could very well have gotten Sherlock off much more lightly. But he didn't.

 

Of course I can't really believe Mycroft didn't have a secret backup plan to save his brother at the last minute. He doesn't want his sad little excuse for a heart broken, after all. Perhaps we'll find out next season that the Moriarty footage was his idea. But still. I hate how he continues to act so F***ing superior while making Sherlock do the dirty work he should have taken care of himself in the first place.

[Arcadia]

Hmmm, I'll have to think about that. It seemed awfully personal to me, and Sherlock's the one who keeps making snarky remarks about patriotism and such. (Can't remember when or where, sorry.) Sometimes I wonder if Mycroft didn't set him up, though ... surely he knows Sherlock well enough to know that ordering him to leave CAM alone would produce the opposite reaction.

 

Then again, Sherlock shouting "Merry Christmas" as he pulled the trigger does make it seem like he's giving Mycroft a present: "Here you go, brother, I solved your problem for you." Or it could be bitter: "Look, brother, what your inaction has forced me to do." And sometimes I think it was supposed to make us laugh, which makes me shudder. Even Moftiss wouldn't find that funny, would they?

 

Ummmmm.... I'm sorry if I come across as smug and judgemental. I'm really not, honest. I just like a debate. It's sort of a family trait! My whole family can drive any number of people right up the wall without breaking a sweat, it's a gift.

[T.o.b.y]

Hmmm, I'll have to think about that. It seemed awfully personal to me, and Sherlock's the one who keeps making snarky remarks about patriotism and such. (Can't remember when or where, sorry.) Sometimes I wonder if Mycroft didn't set him up, though ... surely he knows Sherlock well enough to know that ordering him to leave CAM alone would produce the opposite reaction.

 

Then again, Sherlock shouting "Merry Christmas" as he pulled the trigger does make it seem like he's giving Mycroft a present: "Here you go, brother, I solved your problem for you." Or it could be bitter: "Look, brother, what your inaction has forced me to do." And sometimes I think it was supposed to make us laugh, which makes me shudder. Even Moftiss wouldn't find that funny, would they?

 

Ummmmm.... I'm sorry if I come across as smug and judgemental. I'm really not, honest. I just like a debate. It's sort of a family trait! My whole family can drive any number of people right up the wall without breaking a sweat, it's a gift.

 

Oh, no, no, I didn't mean you! I meant Mycroft and the other government officials standing around cooly debating whether to send Sherlock to prison or exile and kill him after he's basically done their job for them.

 

The remark about patriotism is from The Great Game, where Sherlock calls John "quaint" for being motivated by "queen and country". The original Mr Holmes was quite patriotic, by the way. I never liked that aspect, and I didn't think it fit the character, either. But a tiny bit of it seems to have rubbed off on Sherlock. Besides, I don't think England was such a big motivator in shooting Magnussen as the people who live there - and elsewhere.

 

Um... I'm sorry to tell you this, but I find the "Merry Christmas" bit funny, yes. Very much so.

 

[Arcadia]

Um... I'm sorry to tell you this, but I find the "Merry Christmas" bit funny, yes. Very much so.

What?!?!?! Ak! You really are a psychopath!

[Boton]

 

Yes, Carol, exactly. I think it's doing Sherlock an injustice to assume he shot Magnussen only to protect Mary. I think he did it to protect everybody, to prevent future harm to the population of England and international affairs from a bloody creep who thought himself entitled to bully anybody he fancied on any scale he thought fun.

 

I think it would probably have been quite hard, next to impossible maybe, to get anywhere with Magnussen in a legal setting. He probably knows every trick in the book, could pay for the best team of lawyers available, and blackmail his way through judge and jury until they let him go. He expressed complete and utter contempt for the "civilized" way of doing things when he visited Baker St, and mocked the English as "a nation of herbivores", who were all so "domesticated" and did nothing but stand around apologizing.

 

Totally agree.  Threatening John and Mary (who T.o.b.y has rightly called Sherlock's family) was the tipping point.  John and Sherlock went into Appledore with the intent to save Mary as their "client," but Sherlock had been working on CAM for months.  CAM had already indirectly caused the death of Lady Smallwood's husband.  He apparently had met with the PM several times, so heaven knows what information he had that could change the course of international relations.  And he admitted that he likes to toy with entire countries.  I can see Sherlock being very galled by this man; he doesn't play by any rules of engagement but instead just uses people as playthings.  

 

 

I've always admired the kind of hero who is willing to sacrifice his own virtue so the other people can continue to stand around with a clean vest looking smug and judgemental and go on with their good little lives.

 

By the way, I loathe Mycroft even more since His Last Vow. The most powerful man in England, and he, apparently, did nothing to stop Magnussen for years. And why? "Because he never threatens anyone of importance". Well, thank you very, very much, Mycroft! Good to know that it's perfectly fine with you if us ordinary goldfish get tyrannized over by a megalomaniac media mogul as long as he doesn't mess with your club of stuffy old rich people (which he did, by the way, but never mind). And then Sherlock finally actually does something, and Mycroft has him sent on a death mission, just so he won't be accused of "brotherly compassion" 

 

I suppose I don't loathe Mycroft yet, but I'm not entirely fond of him after all this either.  In S3, Mycroft is used as the counterpoint to Sherlock so we can better see Sherlock's emotional development.  Mycroft doesn't form an emotional attachment to anything, really.  His admission that losing Sherlock would hurt him ("Your loss would break my heart") was noteworthy because it was anomalous.  (And fantastic so that BC could do a spit-take with cigarette smoke!)  Mycroft has rules in his mind of how things should go; he's always doing the math on whether the collateral damage outweighs damage to his "employer."  He has spent his entire life nagging his little brother that there is no advantage in feeling anything, but this season Sherlock is starting to learn otherwise.

 

In some ways, I think Mycroft sending Sherlock on the mission in Eastern Europe is as compassionate as Mycroft can ever get.  He's squelched his own emotion until he doesn't even know how to use it.  I kind of believe that Mycroft lobbied for exile rather than imprisonment because at least if Sherlock were free, he had a chance.  A small one, certainly. But I think Mycroft thought that if anyone could pull it out, it would be his brother, even though he knew the "balance of probability" was that he was sending Sherlock to his death.  

 

Mycroft is kind of the opposite of CAM.  Whereas CAM flouts the rules of engagement and therefore must be stopped because he will not limit himself, Mycroft limits himself overmuch.  He will live and die by the rules of engagement (the rules of a civilized society).  Therefore, he believes that it is unassailable fact that his brother must be punished for murder by sending him to execution.  He's going to throw his own brother to the lions, but by sending him to Eastern Europe, maybe he's sending him into the arena with a knife in his belt.  

[jesskayding]

 

Um... I'm sorry to tell you this, but I find the "Merry Christmas" bit funny, yes. Very much so.

What?!?!?! Ak! You really are a psychopath!

 

 

I started clapping after he shot CAM.

[jesskayding]

 

 

Yes, Carol, exactly. I think it's doing Sherlock an injustice to assume he shot Magnussen only to protect Mary. I think he did it to protect everybody, to prevent future harm to the population of England and international affairs from a bloody creep who thought himself entitled to bully anybody he fancied on any scale he thought fun.

 

I think it would probably have been quite hard, next to impossible maybe, to get anywhere with Magnussen in a legal setting. He probably knows every trick in the book, could pay for the best team of lawyers available, and blackmail his way through judge and jury until they let him go. He expressed complete and utter contempt for the "civilized" way of doing things when he visited Baker St, and mocked the English as "a nation of herbivores", who were all so "domesticated" and did nothing but stand around apologizing.

 

Totally agree.  Threatening John and Mary (who T.o.b.y has rightly called Sherlock's family) was the tipping point.  John and Sherlock went into Appledore with the intent to save Mary as their "client," but Sherlock had been working on CAM for months.  CAM had already indirectly caused the death of Lady Smallwood's husband.  He apparently had met with the PM several times, so heaven knows what information he had that could change the course of international relations.  And he admitted that he likes to toy with entire countries.  I can see Sherlock being very galled by this man; he doesn't play by any rules of engagement but instead just uses people as playthings.  

 

 

I've always admired the kind of hero who is willing to sacrifice his own virtue so the other people can continue to stand around with a clean vest looking smug and judgemental and go on with their good little lives.

 

By the way, I loathe Mycroft even more since His Last Vow. The most powerful man in England, and he, apparently, did nothing to stop Magnussen for years. And why? "Because he never threatens anyone of importance". Well, thank you very, very much, Mycroft! Good to know that it's perfectly fine with you if us ordinary goldfish get tyrannized over by a megalomaniac media mogul as long as he doesn't mess with your club of stuffy old rich people (which he did, by the way, but never mind). And then Sherlock finally actually does something, and Mycroft has him sent on a death mission, just so he won't be accused of "brotherly compassion" 

 

I suppose I don't loathe Mycroft yet, but I'm not entirely fond of him after all this either.  In S3, Mycroft is used as the counterpoint to Sherlock so we can better see Sherlock's emotional development.  Mycroft doesn't form an emotional attachment to anything, really.  His admission that losing Sherlock would hurt him ("Your loss would break my heart") was noteworthy because it was anomalous.  (And fantastic so that BC could do a spit-take with cigarette smoke!)  Mycroft has rules in his mind of how things should go; he's always doing the math on whether the collateral damage outweighs damage to his "employer."  He has spent his entire life nagging his little brother that there is no advantage in feeling anything, but this season Sherlock is starting to learn otherwise.

 

In some ways, I think Mycroft sending Sherlock on the mission in Eastern Europe is as compassionate as Mycroft can ever get.  He's squelched his own emotion until he doesn't even know how to use it.  I kind of believe that Mycroft lobbied for exile rather than imprisonment because at least if Sherlock were free, he had a chance.  A small one, certainly. But I think Mycroft thought that if anyone could pull it out, it would be his brother, even though he knew the "balance of probability" was that he was sending Sherlock to his death.  

 

Mycroft is kind of the opposite of CAM.  Whereas CAM flouts the rules of engagement and therefore must be stopped because he will not limit himself, Mycroft limits himself overmuch.  He will live and die by the rules of engagement (the rules of a civilized society).  Therefore, he believes that it is unassailable fact that his brother must be punished for murder by sending him to execution.  He's going to throw his own brother to the lions, but by sending him to Eastern Europe, maybe he's sending him into the arena with a knife in his belt.  

 

 

 

Although, Boton, there's been speculation that Mycroft is behind the whole, did you miss me Moriarty thingy. That it was a ploy in order that Sherl wouldn't have to go into exhile.

[Janie]

 

 

Um... I'm sorry to tell you this, but I find the "Merry Christmas" bit funny, yes. Very much so.

What?!?!?! Ak! You really are a psychopath!

 

 

I started clapping after he shot CAM.

 

 

Me too. Well, not literally but I was sooo relieved when he finally shot him! Does that make me a psychopath too? 

[jesskayding]

Maybe I can do a live chat of HLV with people who were like yay! Ding dong The wicked CAM, which mean CAM?, the Wicked CAM!. Ding dong the wicked CAM is dead!!! ( in the tune of the Wicked Witch is Dead!, from ' The Wizard of OZ ')

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

 

Although, Boton, there's been speculation that Mycroft is behind the whole, did you miss me Moriarty thingy. That it was a ploy in order that Sherl wouldn't have to go into exhile.

 

  Either Mycroft or Lady Smallwood, or both if not a revengeful hold over from Moriarty's evil web. Or Mummy Holmes or "The Other One" if that one is even still alive. 

[Boton]

 

 

Although, Boton, there's been speculation that Mycroft is behind the whole, did you miss me Moriarty thingy. That it was a ploy in order that Sherl wouldn't have to go into exhile.

 

I've read that speculation, although I don't give it much credence right now.  Although I think Mycroft was pleased, the Moriarty supposed return seems too flashy to be a Mycroft production.  Had he wanted Sherlock "pardoned," he could have accomplished that behind the scenes earlier.  Much more his style, were he going to make a rescue attempt, to let Sherlock knock around Eastern Europe for five months, three weeks, and some odd days (depending on how close his intell said Sherlock was to getting offed) and then swoop in to pluck him out.  After letting him take a horrifying beating, of course.

 

Guess we'll see in about 15 months!

[Carol the Dabbler]

That might stop him from being a threat to you. But I think the big question is, how do you stop him from doing similar things to lots of other people? Or, as he says, to entire countries?

I don't, they have to do that for themselves, I guess. I'm trying to think of a real world example but I'm drawing a blank.

 

Added: or get the goods on him and prosecute the s.o.b.....

While I would agree with your first point in an idealized anarchist society, that's not the situation here. Also, there are things that need to be kept secret for the victim's sake -- just off the top of my head, the paternity of a rape victim's baby (for her sake and the baby's).  I don't get the feeling that CAM targeted sinners (so to speak), but rather that he targeted people that he wanted something from, like Mycroft (via Mary) and Lady Smallwood (via her husband).  Surely just about everyone has secrets -- not necessarily "guilty" ones -- that they would not want exposed.

 

And unfortunately I don't see how prosecution is going to stop him.  Except for certain very specific circumstances, I don't believe there's any law against telling the truth.

 

Hmmm, I'll have to think about that. It seemed awfully personal to me, and Sherlock's the one who keeps making snarky remarks about patriotism and such. (Can't remember when or where, sorry.) Sometimes I wonder if Mycroft didn't set him up, though ... surely he knows Sherlock well enough to know that ordering him to leave CAM alone would produce the opposite reaction.

 

Then again, Sherlock shouting "Merry Christmas" as he pulled the trigger does make it seem like he's giving Mycroft a present: "Here you go, brother, I solved your problem for you." Or it could be bitter: "Look, brother, what your inaction has forced me to do." And sometimes I think it was supposed to make us laugh, which makes me shudder. Even Moftiss wouldn't find that funny, would they?

 

I agree that Sherlock takes CAM's actions very personally, and part of that obviously has to do with Mary.  But I suspect that it's not just one thing, it's 1) CAM is threatening his best friend's wife, 2) who is also very dear to Sherlock, thus 3) challenging his solemn vow in such a way that 4) he can think of no civilized defense.

 

And yes, I do believe that "Merry Christmas" is supposed to be funny, but certainly not in a lighthearted way.  It's dark, bitter humor.

 

Although I think Mycroft was pleased, the Moriarty supposed return seems too flashy to be a Mycroft production.  Had he wanted Sherlock "pardoned," he could have accomplished that behind the scenes earlier.  Much more his style, were he going to make a rescue attempt, to let Sherlock knock around Eastern Europe for five months, three weeks, and some odd days (depending on how close his intell said Sherlock was to getting offed) and then swoop in to pluck him out.  After letting him take a horrifying beating, of course.

I doubt that even Mycroft's sources are sufficiently omniscient that he would dare postpone a rescue till the eleventh hour. While I agree that the GIF isn't Mycroft's style, maybe that's precisely why he used it -- who would suspect the slicked-back, brolly-twirling Mr. Holmes of such a stunt? It's not like he would ever admit to it!

[jesskayding]

Ok. Fine then.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

We could claim in some degree that Mycroft is behind it even though Moffat wrote that episode. I'm sure on one of the many train rides, Moffat & Gatiss chatted back & forth about it.

 

Also agree that the Merry Christmas was meant in the dark humor way (& yes I do find it slightly amusing)

[Zain]

But if Mycroft truly was behind that GIF, we'd have to seriously consider what this implies. It's quite a selfless action from his position, and potentially self-damaging. So far, he might have gone out of his way to get Sherlock out of trouble, but it never meant for him to lean out of the window. An action of this magnitude almost seems like a huge character development. Too huge for my taste. I'd rather speculate about how much he cares for Sherlock than to be told straight to my face that he values Sherlock more than his own career. On the other hand, it severely implies that his ability of making decisions is limited, otherwise he would not have had to use such methods to circumvent the decision makers. Mycroft's only role so far has been to be the omnipotent tool, the last resort. While I consider it much more realistic to see him as one of the upper links in the chain, I cannot think of a reason why they would voluntarily limit his power as the dubiously cooperative deus ex machina character. Unless it will become important to a case.

It certainly is possible he's behind it. But I am less interested in who's behind the GIF, and more interested in their motivation. it's either foe, ally, or third-party. The motivation seems to me to be potentially more obscure. But that's me, I need some more logic in season 4, 3 was a bit sparse on this, a bit too mainstream for my taste. Though I suppose my taste is somewhat strange I once spent three months watching live streams of a board game, and one game roughly takes 60-70 minutes (about 200 moves), and I thought that was rather exciting, because I loved guessing the next moves...

[Arcadia]

Um... I'm sorry to tell you this, but I find the "Merry Christmas" bit funny, yes. Very much so.

I started clapping after he shot CAM.

Me too. Well, not literally but I was sooo relieved when he finally shot him! Does that make me a psychopath too? 

And yes, I do believe that "Merry Christmas" is supposed to be funny, but certainly not in a lighthearted way.  It's dark, bitter humor.

Also agree that the Merry Christmas was meant in the dark humor way (& yes I do find it slightly amusing)

Wow. Well, I'm glad to see that violence on TV hasn't desensitized this crowd, at least!

 

I just had the weirdest experience; came home, flipped on the boob tube and there was David Tennant ... with an American accent. In a remake of a British show. Which he also starred in. I think I'm in the Twilight Zone.

 

(It looked pretty good, by the way. Not a single gunshot, though, you lot might not like it. )

[Carol the Dabbler]

... I am less interested in who's behind the GIF, and more interested in their motivation. it's either foe, ally, or third-party. The motivation seems to me to be potentially more obscure. But that's me, I need some more logic in season 4, 3 was a bit sparse on this, a bit too mainstream for my taste. Though I suppose my taste is somewhat strange....

I see nothing whatsoever strange about wanting some logic in a Sherlock Holmes story.  In fact, I'd like to see more logic (and less shock value) in Series 4 myself, more like Series 1 and 2 in that regard.

 

[SherlockedCAMPer]

 

... I am less interested in who's behind the GIF, and more interested in their motivation. it's either foe, ally, or third-party. The motivation seems to me to be potentially more obscure. But that's me, I need some more logic in season 4, 3 was a bit sparse on this, a bit too mainstream for my taste. Though I suppose my taste is somewhat strange....

I see nothing whatsoever strange about wanting some logic in a Sherlock Holmes story. In fact, I'd like to see more logic (and less shock value) in Series 4 myself, more like Series 1 and 2 in that regard.

I agree with more logic. There is a certain amount if wit when there is solid logic involved.

[jesskayding]

 

 

... I am less interested in who's behind the GIF, and more interested in their motivation. it's either foe, ally, or third-party. The motivation seems to me to be potentially more obscure. But that's me, I need some more logic in season 4, 3 was a bit sparse on this, a bit too mainstream for my taste. Though I suppose my taste is somewhat strange....

I see nothing whatsoever strange about wanting some logic in a Sherlock Holmes story. In fact, I'd like to see more logic (and less shock value) in Series 4 myself, more like Series 1 and 2 in that regard.

I agree with more logic. There is a certain amount if wit when there is solid logic involved.

 

 

I'm sorry, but there is nothing mainstream about BBC Sherlock... Nothing...

[Bendydoodle Cantaloupe]

I wouldn't call it mainstream, Series 3. More fanservice-y, e.g. Sherlock LITERALLY popping up and saying "Not dead", Sherlock taking Molly on a case in lieu of John, John hugging Sherlock, the outrageous stag night (evening, really -- "You couldn't even make it to closing time"), Molly slapping Sherlock out of tough love, and some other things I don't remember off the top of my head right now. But I can say for sure that the Johnlockers and the Sherlollypops (is that what they're called? There's no general consensus.) were partying.

 

(There's been fights between the Johnlockers and Sherlollypops because one thinks their ship is better and the other's is going to sink. Some parts of the Sherlock fandom I've encountered fight a lot -- Mary haters and Mary 'stans', Gay!John supporters and Gay!John refuters, the Johnlock Conspirators vs the Johnlock Refuters, just to name a few historial conflicts.)

[T.o.b.y]

I wouldn't call it mainstream, Series 3. More fanservice-y, e.g. Sherlock LITERALLY popping up and saying "Not dead", Sherlock taking Molly on a case in lieu of John, John hugging Sherlock, the outrageous stag night (evening, really -- "You couldn't even make it to closing time"), Molly slapping Sherlock out of tough love, and some other things I don't remember off the top of my head right now. But I can say for sure that the Johnlockers and the Sherlollypops (is that what they're called? There's no general consensus.) were partying.

 

(There's been fights between the Johnlockers and Sherlollypops because one thinks their ship is better and the other's is going to sink. Some parts of the Sherlock fandom I've encountered fight a lot -- Mary haters and Mary 'stans', Gay!John supporters and Gay!John refuters, the Johnlock Conspirators vs the Johnlock Refuters, just to name a few historial conflicts.)

 

I don't know enough of the Sherlock fandom at large to recognize fanservice when I see it, I guess (and from what you wrote at the bottom in small print, that's probably a blessing), but this might explain why my first reaction to The Empty Hearse (and series 3 in general) was "did they get a team of fan fic writers to do their scripts?"

 

The creators have denied often enough to interact in any way with their fans or being influenced by fan works, but it does seem to me as if there's been quite a lot of market research on somebody's part between series 2 and 3. Luckily, it hasn't spoiled the story (yet). But I do wish they'd ignore their audience even more than they allegedly do and go back to the style and tone of series 1.

 

I do love Sherlock's character development, though. I'm glad he's not a typical series protagonist. They tend to be pretty static from what I know.

 

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

(There's been fights between the Johnlockers and Sherlollypops because one thinks their ship is better and the other's is going to sink. Some parts of the Sherlock fandom I've encountered fight a lot -- Mary haters and Mary 'stans', Gay!John supporters and Gay!John refuters, the Johnlock Conspirators vs the Johnlock Refuters, just to name a few historial conflicts.)

Yes, I've heard those horror stories. Some of our "discussions" here are quite spirited enough for my taste, thank you very much!

 

OK, I'm ignorant -- what are Mary 'stans'?  Google brings up a bunch of hits, but everyone seems to assume that I already know what they're talking about.

 

[T.o.b.y]

Yes, I've heard those horror stories. Some of our "discussions" here are quite spirited enough for my taste, thank you very much!

 

Oh, sorry, Carol... I like a spirited discussion now and then, and I can get a little verbally heated, I know. But I do think we're a pretty civilized bunch here in general. I've just spent a sleepless hour reading posts under a news article. Oh my goodness. How is it that we can discuss a fictional TV show with more level-headedness and mutual respect than others care to spare for a discourse about serious real-life issues? It makes me sad. Rant over.

 

Back on topic? Okay. His Last Vow, hmmm...

 

Have a look at this face:

 

 

If I remember correctly, Mary has just said: "(...) John can never know that I lied to him. It would break him, and I would loose him forever (...)"

 

Rub it in, Mary. Rub it in...

[Carol the Dabbler]

The creators have denied often enough to interact in any way with their fans or being influenced by fan works, but it does seem to me as if there's been quite a lot of market research on somebody's part between series 2 and 3. Luckily, it hasn't spoiled the story (yet). But I do wish they'd ignore their audience even more than they allegedly do and go back to the style and tone of series 1.

Very nicely put! 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Yes, I've heard those horror stories. Some of our "discussions" here are quite spirited enough for my taste, thank you very much!

 

Oh, sorry, Carol... I like a spirited discussion now and then, and I can get a little verbally heated, I know. But I do think we're a pretty civilized bunch here in general.

I agree. Some of us may occasionally miscommunicate or even rub each other the wrong way now and then, but we patch things up and move on. Nobody blows up over it. As I said, things get quite spirited enough -- but never less than civilized.