Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[jesskayding]

I have no doubt that Sherlock knew Magnussen. Even though we are not given the reason why, Sherlock hated the man. Loathed him and that is not something Sherlock seems to take lightly. He is very forgiving of most people. He tells the murdering Jeff Hope that he is wasted as a killer and a cabbie. Even willing to "play the game" with him. For all that Mycroft has taunted and belittled him since a child, he can get along with him and even get some of his own back on him.

 

Mary puts him a death's door and he comes not only to forgive but to trust her as well. No, there is something about Magnussen that hit deep at the heart of something within Sherlock, something he couldn't get past and forgive.

Those mentioned above could be dealt with differently than killing them. Moriarty: dismantle his network, Cabby: get him to take his own poison or lock him up in jail, Mary: Take on her case, also he could relate to her having to disappear... Which is probably why she sided with Sherlock when he returned from the dead & John was "over exaggerating".

 

Magnussen: How do you forgive him? He's flicking your best friends face because he can... Poor Lady Smallwood's hubby has committed suicide... How do you stop him without killing him. What... hold out for him to become a better person?.. CAM doesn't give you an opportunity to forgive him?

[jesskayding]

Also I don't know how forgiving he is with the Cabby... He did step on his wound until he gave up the name of his fan. Not only that he hit the man in the face with a pill because he didn't know if he had beat him @ his own game. Then he & John were joking about how it was ok to kill him because he was a bad man & a terrible Cabbie.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Maybe "forgive" isn't quite the right word I'm looking for. But Sherlock can deal with people no matter how he feels about them personally....up to a point. He can be civil even to those people he doesn't like. Even to Magussen even when the man pees in his fireplace he keeps his cool. He knows that they are human.

[T.o.b.y]

 

To be honest, I don't see adoration in the Mary-Sherlock relationship. It isn't obvious why he takes to her in such a big way. Yes, she is intelligent and friendly - up to the moment she shot him! - but so was Sarah in T BB and look how rude he was to her. I can think of a couple of explanations....

 

...

 

Maybe Sherlock realised he couldn't sabotage this relationship, as he had done with John's previous girlfriends. He had been away too long, the relationship was well established and John was still nursing some residual anger towards him. So he swallowed his jealousy by over-identifying with Mary and making himself a part of their relationship. At times, he seems to have cast himself in the role of Mary's Best Friend Forever. Even after she nearly kills him, he is still determined that the Watsons's marriage will work. He is almost like a child horrified by the threat of his parents's divorce, even though Mum and Dad know their relationship is dead in the water.

 

My impression exactly.

 

The thing is, I'm not sure it's what the authors intended. They might very well think of that trio as a perfectly happy, lovely, unproblematic alliance, but if so, it (once again this series), doesn't quite ring true to me. Yes, I do believe Sherlock genuinely likes Mary. He probably would even like her if she was not John's wife. But as John's wife, there is a lot more thrown in the mix - on both sides, I bet. And it really doesn't seem to me as if it's all entirely roses and sunshine.

 

One interesting point is, that while Sherlock never, ever, to our knowledge dares to say or even think anything disparaging about Mary, not even to acknowledge the truth of some of his deductions about her, the Moriarty voice inside his mind palace calls her "that wife" and claims that she is something to worry about, or rather that John needs to be worried about, being married to her. Of course this is because she has just shot him and turned out to be an assassin who assumed a fake identity and so on. But when Sherlock comes to, he never seems to deal with that further. He quickly explains away anything "not quite good" on Mary's side, and pulls all strings he can think of to get her and John back together.

 

Of course John and Mary do have this "they were meant to be" quality, at least in my eyes. No matter what happened, I bet I will cry if they ever separate. But I seriously doubt Sherlock has that kind of a romantic view. Although... you never know with him.

[sfmpco]

From the time that Sherlock collapses at 221B after the confrontation at Leinster Gardens to the Christmas scenes, time has elapsed.  Perhaps close to six months - John and Mary get married May (and she's already in her first trimester), one month later John gets Sherlock out of a drug den and within another day Sherlock is shot.  That puts the timeline in June, and the next time reference we get is Christmas.   Mary should have looked close to popping at the end of the episode.

 

After the collapse, Sherlock is going back into hospital for a long road of recovery.  John and Mary aren't speaking to each other.  Everything is a mess.  The show's creators did not choose to have deep, emotional scenes of repentance and forgiveness or of punishment for Mary.  Actually, the moment Sherlock says, "I'll take the case" is the moment he forgives her, even though he doesn't have her full story.  John forgiving her is another matter because 1) she has shot his best friend and 2) everything he has built with her is a lie.  But we aren't privy to what has happened during those months after the collapse that bring John to the point of being willing to destroy the A.G.R.A. drive and move forward in his life with Mary.  He's still pissed off, but he's moving forward with her.  Like I said, we don't know what got him to that point.

 

We also don't know everything that was confessed when Mary sat in the client chair although whatever happened occured in under 8 minutes because that's how long it took the ambulance to arrive from whenever Sherlock called them - which was before they entered 221B.  She wouldn't ever have had to tell John about the A.G.R.A. drive, but she was willing to risk it all and to lay her life bare to both men.  She was willing to in essence say, "If you read this, you may want to have me arrested and punished," because whatever was on that drive was utterly damning.  She admits she would go prison for the rest of her life.  So by allowing him the option of reading what is on the drive, she is giving John the opportunity to punish her for shooting Sherlock by having her arrested.

 

He chooses, after "months of silence" to burn the drive, having never looked at it.  He chose silence over exposure to punish her.  And she stuck it out for those months of silence.  She could have disappeared, made a new name for herself, but she didn't.  She stuck through the silent treatment because she loves John and believes that ultimately he still loves her as well.

 

We don't have the benefit of a touchy-feely scene of Mary asking Sherlock's forgiveness.  He has simply moved on from the shooting incident and is now doing surgery on the relationship between the three of them by exposing her lie and then being ready to get back to business.  Of course he doesn't understand that what has happened between John and Mary isn't just a "little domestic."  He doesn't understand the dynamic of marriage and broken trust in marriage.  He doesn't understand that it's not a quick fix.  He's just ready to get back to business.  

 

It is not my desire to offend anyone here with my support of Mary.  Part of my support for her is purely emotional - the moment she opened her mouth and her voice was so sweet and lovely, I liked her.  It was my first time ever seeing Amanda Abbington in anything.  I had never heard of her, and I still haven't seen anything else she has done except for some SHERLOCK panel discussions.  At the end of one of the panel discussions, she invited the whole audience to just come over to the house and continue... and it made me think that if you ever really met her, she would be like an instant best friend.  So I see that in her, I see the loveliness of Mary.  I also see the desperation of Mary to do a pretty unspeakable thing.  

 

I tried to do my own version of those missing months in a short pieces of fan fiction called "Addicted to a Certain Lifestyle."  Even without it, however, the above analysis of what happened and what information we were given is still correct.  I think I may go back and tweak that fiction a little.

 

I think the show's producers and creators, if they read these threads would probably be rolling their eyes a bit thinking that we are way over-thinking all of this... but at the same time glad we are so invested in it.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I do think that we are over thinking it....but...it has been mentioned in these threads before....that where would we be if we didn't?  Months and months of doing nothing but twiddling our thumbs between seasons....so...bring it on. These discussion boards are serving a good purpose....keeping us sane...well...some of us....if marginally. But it's fun, it's creative...and it keeps the juices flowing.

 

We do have a lot invested in Sherlock emotionally and many other levels as well...and I don't mind.

[sfmpco]

You wouldn't catch me over-thinking Grey's Anatomy, that's for sure.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Or any other program that I can see...but then....the others are things that are given to us week after week after week  and what ever information they want us to know about any given character is force feed. Very little if anything left to imagine in contrast to Sherlock where we have all kinds of blank time and missing information.

[T.o.b.y]

We don't have the benefit of a touchy-feely scene of Mary asking Sherlock's forgiveness.  He has simply moved on from the shooting incident and is now doing surgery on the relationship between the three of them by exposing her lie and then being ready to get back to business.  Of course he doesn't understand that what has happened between John and Mary isn't just a "little domestic."  He doesn't understand the dynamic of marriage and broken trust in marriage.  He doesn't understand that it's not a quick fix.  He's just ready to get back to business. 

 

... which I guess is Sherlock's own particular way of being naive, and it is very lovable.

 

 

It is not my desire to offend anyone here with my support of Mary.

 

Goodness, things would come to a pretty pass if we started taking offense at one another's sympathies! You could support Mycroft, for all I care. Moriarty, if you must. Okay, I must admit, I would probably draw the line at Magnussen, though... I wonder, does he have any fans at all? Like Moriarty has? I can really understand why people love Moriarty, even though I don't, but Magnussen? Can you really...?

 

 

Speaking of Sherlock being naive. I remember wondering about Redbeard around here a few days ago. I think I've decided he represents two things, for Mycroft and Sherlock: The danger of getting attached to anybody and the danger of having your judgement impaired by affection.

Because I am sure little Sherlock was very unhappy when Redbeard was gone, so when Mycroft advises him not to get "involved", he wants to tell him that loving people isn't worth the inevitable pain of losing them at some point, because of all the things that "people do", which include dying. And getting married. Also, if the story is true that Sherlock believed a rigmarole about Redbeard having gone to live a happy life on a farm somewhere instead of having been put down, then that kind of stands for what happened to Sherlock again with Mary: he shut his eyes to an ugly truth because he liked her too much (or wanted to like her too much...). The latter makes me wonder if Mycroft did have some information on Mary, after all.

 

Oh, it just occurred to me. Sherlock actually tries to sell John a similar lie at the end of His Last Vow, doesn't he. While he's in reality being sent to die, he lets John believe he's merely going on a mission, which is probably exciting and fun and then Sherlock will live happily ever after in the adrenaline rush of international crime work, if only inside John's imagination.

 

 

[sfmpco]

Unfortunately, I came into this whole discussion long after all the episodes had aired... and I think the lot of you were fairly talked out about it whereas it has all been fresh to me.  Not as fresh as it was because I've seen them over and over again, sometimes just going to watch my favorite bits from each one.  

 

i am still quite amazed at how many people have never seen this show at all.  I try to get them to see it.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

At least you felt free and brave enough to jump in...kudos to you. Word of mouth does work...better then formal advertizing some times.

[sfmpco]

 

Oh, it just occurred to me. Sherlock actually tries to sell John a similar lie at the end of His Last Vow, doesn't he. While he's in reality being sent to die, he lets John believe he's merely going on a mission, which is probably exciting and fun and then Sherlock will live happily ever after in the adrenaline rush of international crime work, if only inside John's imagination.

 

I know that the mission was supposed to end in Sherlock's death, but part of me still believes that somehow Sherlock would have outwitted that outcome.

[T.o.b.y]

Talked out? Me talked out about Sherlock? Yeah, as if that's going to happen any time soon...

 

As for over-thinking everything and being a bit obsessed and ridiculous about it, at this point, I think I don't give a damn. It's fun, and there are a ton of more destructive ways to waste my time.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

I don't know if Sherlock meant it as an out and out lie....he did say it was for 6 months and Mycroft was never wrong about these things. Also how many times can you tell someone that your probably going to be be dead at the end of it all? Especially Sherlock?   The pill which John was sure he was going to take....the jumping off a roof....only to come back. Thinking for sure that both were going to get blown to kingdom come in a tube car because the bloody git, Sherlock, is able to find a bloody off switch.

 

  John is a soldier....he has seen death and good men die. No one lives forever, he knows that better then anyone. Even Mycroft asked Sherlock at the Diogenes Club if he had been in contact with John....to prepare him.  So I can at least somewhat imagine that if for what ever reason Sherlock didn't make it out of Eastern Europe Mycroft would have let him know....some how. But knowing Sherlock Holmes...and the powers behind him....one can always imagine him making it out alive....just on the odd chance he couldn't do it himself, like Serbia.

 

 

 

[sfmpco]

yeah, the whole Serbia thing... not exactly in the travel path back to Britain that Anderson was trying to map in MANY HAPPY RETURNS.  Of course Sherlock would have had to learn Serbian too... and many other languages during that time, but we can assume he could pick up a language in only a couple of hours.  

 

No doubt he'd already mastered the language he needed for the 6-month eastern Europe stint.  My mind goes a bit bonkers wondering what in the world kind of assignment could it have been that Mycroft was reasonably sure would end in his death?

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

That is anyone's guess, I suppose.....or maybe something to give Sherlock to worry about....part of his punishment for slaying this particular dragon. Make him sweat it out or five and 3 quarter months.

[sfmpco]

Well, it will be interesting in Series 4 to see if they incorporate any of his MI6 training.  Not that I want him to be some sort of super spy.  (you have to guess that Hollywood is eyeing BC as a potential future James Bond).

 

I would love to see him do something with swords as SH was an expert swordsman.  And I would like to see him have to pick up a foreign language in a few hours.

 

 

[T.o.b.y]

God forbid we get a Sherlock Holmes version of Bond. I've got nothing against Bond (well, depending on who plays him), but I'd like him to stay in his own little world, thank you very much.

 

Oh dear, I just saw this again...

 

Isn't John's reaction to Janine at the beginning priceless? That "this is all so wrong in so many ways" face? Sometimes I wish I hadn't known right away what was behind it all, because then at least I could have felt right along with him. Oh dear.

 

I have a question: At the end, when Sherlock takes the gun from John's coat, do you think John really doesn't notice? Or does he notice and just lets Sherlock do what he thinks he must because he's either okay with it or just too dazed to realize what is happening until it's too late? I favor that last scenario, actually.

[jesskayding]

Well, it will be interesting in Series 4 to see if they incorporate any of his MI6 training. Not that I want him to be some sort of super spy. (you have to guess that Hollywood is eyeing BC as a potential future James Bond).

 

I would love to see him do something with swords as SH was an expert swordsman. And I would like to see him have to pick up a foreign language in a few hours.

Ok. Cumberbatch is cute/good looking as Sherlock, but to play James Bond... There has to be a sort of gruffness & swagger & just a whole other level of hotness that Cumberbatch has not yet attained. Probably won't ever have that kind of finesse.

 

Now... Hugh Jackman on the hand... He's Bond material.

[sfmpco]

I'm not sure he notices that Sherlock takes the gun.  After all Sherlock is fairly deft at pick-pocketing when the need strikes - usually for getting badges and key cards.  I think John was too overwhelmed by what was going on to notice.

 

Love John's reactions, especially when Sherlock kisses Janine.  He is so overwhelmed with complete disbelief and shock that he can't even look.  LOL

[Arcadia]

 

Would you want Sherlock punished/gone? What would be a suitable punishment? Would you want John to forgive him?

Punished. Yes. Of course. He committed murder. While his reasons are less abominable than Mary's, it is still an act of violence. Sherlock deserves to feel the consequences. I can like or dislike a character and still wish them to be brought to justice. In a way, especially because I like Sherlock, I think he should feel some sort of consequences. What kind of screwed being will be become if he gets off that lightly? Someone like Mary, maybe. Someone that does no longer think his/her actions are wrong.

 

A suitable punishment would be prison time, or at least something that would force him to deal with Magnussen as a person. I am not sure what this is called in English, but it often is done with juvenile criminals. Because prison sentences can be detrimental to their future, they are instead forced to reconcile with their victims, with their victim's family, and so on. Not just a visit or two, but long-term, just like a sentence. Of course, it only works if the victim's family agrees, but it, if I remember correctly from what (little) we learned about law in school, it is more efficient. Because you force them to reflect upon their actions, and to actively deal with the consequences for others, as well as for them that this action had. I think it would be suitable if Sherlock were to go visit Magnussen's grave, for example, to speak to people who knew him (because there's always something good about a person, no matter how horrible that person may be. Nobody's just evil.), to get familiar with his past. Basically, to accept that he was human. I do not think Sherlock truly realized this.

 

And, again, it is not John's place to forgive Sherlock. Sherlock did not wrong him. He wronged Magnussen. If he acted all "I will not forgive you", he'd be very selfish and judgemental. He should rather look at who he keeps near himself. I distinctly remember someone there that is much more of a danger, and even less sorry than Sherlock.

 

So. It is not about disliking Mary. Sure, that is an important factor for me, but not the reason why I want her punished. It is, however, the reason why I want to see her gone. These two attitudes are not the same.

 

Well, I meant would you want John to forgive Sherlock if he had shot Mary, instead of the other way around. I agree John has no reason to either withhold or give forgiveness for Magnussen.

 

I seriously doubt Sherlock will receive any punishment for killing CAM, unless it is the punishment of being even more under Mycroft's thumb. Which might be even more awful than getting killed in Serbia, actually. And I don't particularly want him to, mostly because I think it would make for pretty boring television. But I would like to see ... something ... that indicates remorse for becoming that kind of person, I guess. An acknowledgement that he was NOT on the side of the angels at that moment. And at least Mary's victim survived, so I find myself even less interested in seeing her punished.

[sfmpco]

Well, we will find out how they deal with any further punishment of Sherlock in Series 4, if at all.  Until then it is all just speculation.

 

[sfmpco]

 

Well, it will be interesting in Series 4 to see if they incorporate any of his MI6 training. Not that I want him to be some sort of super spy. (you have to guess that Hollywood is eyeing BC as a potential future James Bond).

 

I would love to see him do something with swords as SH was an expert swordsman. And I would like to see him have to pick up a foreign language in a few hours.

Ok. Cumberbatch is cute/good looking as Sherlock, but to play James Bond... There has to be a sort of gruffness & swagger & just a whole other level of hotness that Cumberbatch has not yet attained. Probably won't ever have that kind of finesse.

 

Now... Hugh Jackman on the hand... He's Bond material.

[Zain]

 

Well, I meant would you want John to forgive Sherlock if he had shot Mary, instead of the other way around. I agree John has no reason to either withhold or give forgiveness for Magnussen.

 

 

 

No. If Sherlock had shot Mary, I would not have wanted John to "forgive" Sherlock. Not because he is Sherlock, but because murder is unforgivable, especially because it is one of those actions that you cannot undo, that you cannot make up for. Dead is dead. (To use your thoughts, I think John had then a reason to forgive Sherlock, because Mary is a loved one of his, while he is unconnected to Magnussen)

 

I'd expect him to give up Sherlock to the police. And I do think a good friend would do just that, for the sake of said friend. Which does not mean that I wish John would condemn Sherlock in that case. But Sherlock would have to face consequences, and he would have to redeem himself. One action should not determine the rest of a person's life, but it also should not be buried and hidden away for the culprit's convenience, like it was done in Mary's case. That is her biggest fault, I think. The one most people see in her. Sure, some call it pragmatism, but that is not just pragmatic, it is downright selfishness and cowardice. Without any respect for her victims. If she had any respect in herself for the victims of her actions, be it loved ones of the ones she killed or the ones she killed, then she would face the consequences of her actions.

Sherlock has many faults, too, but at least he faced those consequences. One may debate that he could not run from it, because he had too many witnesses - I cannot dispute that. On the other hand, we do not get any scene in which he complains about the punishment he received. He got off rather lightly at the end of HLV, but it did not happen because he took any action in that regard. To our knowledge. If it turns out that he was involved with the message at the end, he'd be rather despicable, too. Like Mary. But I cannot see that happening. He has a lot of flaws, but he is more in touch with his conscience than Mary. He knows he was in the wrong.

[jesskayding]

 

 

 

Well, it will be interesting in Series 4 to see if they incorporate any of his MI6 training. Not that I want him to be some sort of super spy. (you have to guess that Hollywood is eyeing BC as a potential future James Bond).

 

I would love to see him do something with swords as SH was an expert swordsman. And I would like to see him have to pick up a foreign language in a few hours.

Ok. Cumberbatch is cute/good looking as Sherlock, but to play James Bond... There has to be a sort of gruffness & swagger & just a whole other level of hotness that Cumberbatch has not yet attained. Probably won't ever have that kind of finesse.

 

Now... Hugh Jackman on the hand... He's Bond material.