Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[sfmpco]

Perhaps someone at Sherlockology can help????

[Carol the Dabbler]

Them too, perhaps.  But there are people right here on this forum who know far more about long-term Holmes fandom and lore than I do (or likely ever will).

 

[jesskayding]

I know right. I tried reading the original stories in that old school vernacular... Yes I say vernacular now.. Thanks Carol ... I wasn't feelin' it.

[Caya]

I'll field this till Fox comes in to confirm, quoting the Baker Street Wiki; it's not quite Holmesian fandom.

 

Based originally on the writings of Philip José Farmer, the concept of the Wold Newton family is the construction of a giant genealogical tree which connects many fictional characters to each other and to a number of historical figures. Additions to this tree are based on the writings of the original creators, pastiche writers, and "Wold Newton scholars." Sherlock Holmes has been one of the central characters of this tree. The Holmes family and its various generations have been the subject of many Wold Newton articles. Sherlock himself has been described as born as William Sherlock Scott Holmes on 6 January, 1861 to Siger Holmes and his wife Violet Rutherford. He was one of eight siblings, including Mycroft, whose descendants include many other characters. The detective has been given as the father of at least eight children, including Nero Wolfe.

 

 

[sherlockandjohn]

Sherl... always loved her saying that.  Humanizes him just a little more.

 

A bit too much, in my opinion. Sherl... for goodness sake. But I do love seeing John's reactions! So much fun, and so how I'd react. Actually, in a way John has become even more accessible to me in series 3. I often find myself responding the way he does.

[sherlockandjohn]

 

"You might have talked to me more (...)''

``A man who had felt less, might.''

 

 

Aw. That's beautiful. Fits the airfield situation perfectly.

 

As for what to say, the two men already expressed their feelings thoroughly in connection with John's wedding (before and during the event). I doubt it needed repetition. It seems to me that had they repeated those sentiments, it would have been out of need for reassurance, which I hope is not necessary. That would be sad. After all they've been through, words should be insignificant. And hugging in that moment... I don't know, I can't really point out why, but it wouldn't feel right to me. Perhaps it has to do with saying goodbye, knowing that you'll never meet again. If it was "see you later", a hug would be appropriate. But how do you let go, once you've started hugging your best friend whom you'll never see again after that?

 

 

By the way, I love Sherlock's final words, "To the very best of times, John." They have so much meaning to them.

[sherlockandjohn]

Actually, a similar scene from a completely different TV series comes to mind. Anyone seen North and South with Patrick Swayze and James Read? (If not, you should.) I'll put this in a spoiler box:

 

 

Two soldiers, best friends, one from the North and one from the South, say goodbye just before the civil war breaks out, knowing that they might not meet again. They stand at a train station, and one is about to leave.

 

 

They don't say much to each other, but they do hug, and for some reason it feels exactly right for them. But for one, they don't know if they might meet again. Also, they are generally much more open with each other than Sherlock and John are.

[jesskayding]

If somebody hasn't seen a scene with Patrick Swayze in it... The mans been deceased for over 5 years! Spoiler alert. Ha! You're so considerate.

[sherlockandjohn]

Well, when you put it that way...

I just figured, you know, in case someone hasn't gotten around to watching it yet, and really want to... Goodness knows I often think for years, "I should watch that film", but never get 'round to it

[Carol the Dabbler]

Random thoughts being pecked in one-handed (while my other hand holds an ice pack -- had a poorly-installed dental implant removed yesterday):

 

Sherlock and John may well have seen each other at least once between Appledore and the airfield, and so may have already said their real goodbyes in private.  (Though I'm frankly not not sure that would have made much difference.)

 

I've known people (e.g., one uncle) who had a perfectly "normal" first name, but were always called by their much more distinctive middle name.  So I see no reason to think that Sherlock should have been called "Bill."  His family all call him Sherlock, so either they've called him that since he was born, or else he made the switch himself during childhood.  I've known several people (including Mom) who made their names more distinctive sometime between age ten and their mid-teens.

 

I tried reading the original stories in that old school vernacular... I wasn't feelin' it.

 

Took me several tries, Jess!  The stories are kinda growing on me, though.  I think one thing that helped me get a feel for them was watching the Jeremy Brett episodes, most of which are based very closely on the stories.  That made me feel more like I "knew" Holmes and Watson.

 

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

William Sherlock Scott Holmes goes back to Baring-Gould and the early so called Holmesian "scholarly study". So I guess early fandom fits. But in Doyle's life there were two Sherlock's that were prominent. One was an Irish cricket player the other, Alfred Sherlock was a talented violinist...which would fit.

 

       http://www.sherlock-holmes.org.uk/world/conan_doyle.php

 

 

 

   Here is an article from the Sherlock Holmes Society of London

[jesskayding]

Well, when you put it that way...

I just figured, you know, in case someone hasn't gotten around to watching it yet, and really want to... Goodness knows I often think for years, "I should watch that film", but never get 'round to it

 

Well don't show any lines from Top Gun or a Few Good Men. I haven't seen them yet.

[jesskayding]

[sfmpco]

Well, only fandom then gives him the longer name, not Doyle, but clearly Moffit/Gatiss like to have fun with the fandom both present and past in their scripts.  "William Sherlock Scott Holmes" is actually a very nice name, but I'm glad that it isn't canon.

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

Yup, Mofftiss said early on that everything about Sherlock Holmes is going to be considered canon for the show. Books not written by Doyle but still about Sherlock Holmes, movies, articles, plays,.....so they have thousands of resources to draw from.

 

 The Guinness World Book recently estimated that there are some 70,000 articles and publications just dealing with Sherlock Holmes himself.

[jesskayding]

Woh

[sherlockandjohn]

 

Well, when you put it that way...

I just figured, you know, in case someone hasn't gotten around to watching it yet, and really want to... Goodness knows I often think for years, "I should watch that film", but never get 'round to it

 

Well don't show any lines from Top Gun or a Few Good Men. I haven't seen them yet.

 

 

Oh, oh, oh! A Few Good Men is great. Darn! Why is it that it's so tempting to do the very thing you're told not to do...

[jesskayding]

I am so kidding. I think I was watching Jimmy Kimmel or Fallon about a month ago. 2 weeks. If you don't download within 2 weeks... Fair game.

 

The New York post is even more cut throat. ( Dont worry, I'm gonna follow the rules of this forums spoiler alert guidelines. I'm not that rebellious.

 

http://nypost.com/2013/12/30/spoiler-alert-rules-for-discussing-plot-twists-finales/

 

 

Please talk about Top Gun all you like. I just refuse to watch it until after I'm married because I plan on using a song from the soundtrack. My friends tell me the song doesn't mean what I think it means... So I won't watch because I don't want my mind to be altered about the song.

[sfmpco]

Well, we have to also remember that they are not only drawing from the original canon and other source material, they are creating an entirely new canon as well... a new canon that has inspired tens of thousands of fanfic.  There are nearly 39,000 pieces of fanfic right now on fanfiction.net.  And I've seen that number higher.

 

I think it's great that they're not so tight-fisted on their characters that they are jumping on people legally via Youtube or fanfic, clothing, jewelry, or whatever to say, "We hold the copyright to these characters, don't use them in any way..." because so much creativity has been inspired by the show.  Although I don't like much of it or agree with some of it, the fact is that it has really sparked imaginations around the world.  I don't know where BBC1 will draw the line on copyright violations, but they seem to be taking a pretty hands off approach.

[jesskayding]

Random thoughts being pecked in one-handed (while my other hand holds an ice pack -- had a poorly-installed dental implant removed yesterday):

 

Sherlock and John may well have seen each other at least once between Appledore and the airfield, and so may have already said their real goodbyes in private. (Though I'm frankly not not sure that would have made much difference.)

 

I've known people (e.g., one uncle) who had a perfectly "normal" first name, but were always called by their much more distinctive middle name. So I see no reason to think that Sherlock should have been called "Bill." His family all call him Sherlock, so either they've called him that since he was born, or else he made the switch himself during childhood. I've known several people (including Mom) who made their names more distinctive sometime between age ten and their mid-teens.

 

 

I tried reading the original stories in that old school vernacular... I wasn't feelin' it.

Took me several tries, Jess! The stories are kinda growing on me, though. I think one thing that helped me get a feel for them was watching the Jeremy Brett episodes, most of which are based very closely on the stories. That made me feel more like I "knew" Holmes and Watson.

Sorry about the dental work. That gets really painful, especially when the drugs wear off.

[Carol the Dabbler]

It's not too bad, actually.  They gave me a prescription for extra-extra-strength Ibuprofen, and that helps.  But I think what helps most is the ice pack.  (I also filled their prescription for Hydrocodone, but haven't used any -- don't seem to need it.)

 

That darn implant had been hurting me ever since it was put in (a year ago), so it's a relief to have it out!

 

[Caya]

Ouch - expensive and painful, now that's a mean combo. Poor you . Hope the replacement will be better.

[Arcadia]

 

Honored ancestor, perhaps?

No, what I mean is, if his name WERE "William Sherlock Scott Holmes," why call him Sherlock?

 

Both my mom and my nephew go by their middle names. When I asked why, the answer was something along the lines of "cuz my parents liked it better." (Which begs the question; why didn't the parents just make that the first name then? I suppose it seemed like a good idea at the time....)

 

I mean, really, Bill Holmes .... zzzzzzzznore...... I'd opt for the middle name too.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Ouch - expensive and painful, now that's a mean combo. Poor you . Hope the replacement will be better.

 

 

It sure ain't gonna be cheap!  When I went to my new dentist to see about having the implant removed, he asked why I didn't just go back to the guy who'd installed it, because he'd probably fix it for free.  My reply was basically "what kind of idiot do I look like?"

 

I'm in no hurry to get a new one.  Can't until the site heals, in any case.  After that -- well, we'll see!

[jesskayding]

I just started to tell people close to mey middle name. It took me till the 4th grade to spell it correctly.