Episode 3.3, "His Last Vow"

[jesskayding]

Absolutely because the assassins that CAM would have sicced onto her wouldn't have cared if she was pregnant or not...might have even taken out John as well or who ever else was with her.

 

Ha hahaaaaa haaa. Right!

[Bakerstreet Irregular]

 

Ha hahaaaaa haaa. Right!

[T.o.b.y]

What? I'm confused... CAM wasn't threatening to bring Mary to justice? He was threatening to have her killed by killers.

 

Well, Mary said that Magnussen had information on her that she would go to prison for life for if it came out. So yes, I assume Mary was mostly afraid he'd bring down the law on her. But what Magnussen said to John at Appledore sounded more like contacting the families of her victims. Who I bet were not all nice, ordinary citizens with nice, harmless, ordinary connections...

 

 

[Zain]

I doubt Mary's past is as heroic as the one you picture. It's not like she worked for some agency, she went freelance. She did not come to England under witness protection. She did not receive a new identity by the government. She ran, and she did that on her own, with apparently a lot of money in the bag, since she does own a car, ("my car"), and living in the suburbs, no small feat. John worked part-time as a doctor to afford his share of living in Baker Street. Unless he won in the lottery, that money comes from Mary.

 

For all we know she still works in that particular field, what, with her keeping her gun and attire, both which are rather incriminating. She's not that out of practice, apparently, when you think of how she hit the coin. And according to Sherlock, him.

[T.o.b.y]

I doubt Mary's past is as heroic as the one you picture. It's not like she worked for some agency, she went freelance.

 

Ummm... isn't she supposed to be CIA trained, though?

 

No, I don't want her past to be heroic, exactly, but I think it'd be terribly boring and way too simple if she merely turned out to be a kind of villain. I don't want an exact replication of the Birdy Edwards story (that would be boring as well), but I do think it'd be fantastic ground to build on for her with all its twists and turns and difficult moral decisions. I mean,

Edwards has to become a member of this horror club for a while and he is made an accomplice to terrible deeds and you can really break your head (well, I can) wondering whether that was all justified by what he achieved in the end.

 

 

 

I want Mary's past to be highly morally ambiguous and complicated and complex. I want it to fuel even more heated discussions and I want it to break my brain. I also want it to tie in to the rest of the story, so if she somehow has / had something to do with Moriarty as well, that would be great, I think. I'm such a sucker for "it's all connected" plot lines.

[jesskayding]

And that would've stopped her from going to the authorities / Mycroft and giving herself so that the killers couldn't get at her how? Oh, I forgot, that would've involved atoning for her crimes and giving up her blissful suburban existence.

Think of a lot of action series some of us enjoy... Alot of them involve "bad" assassins & "heroe" assassins. Based off convo between the 3 of them @ 221B... Mary was a heroe assassin. Just think of this as if we were watching James Bond, Mission Impossible, Cleopatra Jones... This isn't reality television.

 

I agree with T.O.B.Y... Magnussen is like a unreal character.. He's a fantasy " sort of villain"... I actually cracked up laughing after he got shot, because earlier he talked about the English keeping their heads low... Always apologizing... Then @ that moment he thinks he's won... These pathetic little Englishmen ( the petri dish of the Western World )... He yells to the helicopter its ok "They're Harmless!" Then one of those head hanging low Englishmen blows his head off...@ first my mouth hung open in surprise... Then I was like ... Haaaa " Haaaaarmlesss" I laughed & laughed for a good long minute.

[Caya]

 

Mary was a heroe assassin.

 

And you arrived at this fact how exactly? We simply don't know enough of her to be able to say one way or other with any degree of certainty.

[Arcadia]

... Arcadia, no offense taken. I just feared I had completely chosen the wrong words to express myself. I did not want you to think that badly of me.

Yay, thanks! No, I don't think badly of you at all. Or anyone else here, we seem to be a pretty congenial group. Peace!

 

 

Do real-life soldiers or police intentionally shoot to merely disable a person? I believe I've heard that they don't, simply because it's hard enough to just hit the person you're intending to hit (who is often a moving target). If you aim at a knee, for example, you're likely to miss altogether. So my impression is that they simply don't shoot unless they feel justified in probably killing the person. This may be different in the other countries, of course, or I may be misremembering.

Out of curiousity, I looked up the number of police shootings in the US, the most recent I could find was for 2011: police officers in the United States shot 1,146 people, killing 607. That doesn't help much; they're either missing the kill shot accidentally, or on purpose. But what you said makes sense to me.

 

Given the size of our population those numbers aren't near as high as I was afraid they might be. Esp. when you compare that to the number of homicides: 16,259, of which 11,078 are by firearm. That's, uh, around 70% -- ? (Math, not my strong suit.) A lot, anyway. Far too much.

 

Now, before anybody thinks I go through life happily assassinating anybody who gets in my way...

I'm glad you said that, I was just starting to wonder if I should be looking over my shoulder while in public places...

 

 

Of course, it is always debatable if John acted in complete self-defense (which extends to other people), or if John could have shot to injure instead of to kill. But I believe he was doing it to save Sherlock, who at that time, was truly in danger of getting ...

 

I do, however, think that he should have admitted to it, and not have avoided the court case. I can accept that, because the action itself was out of self-defense, thus he is not running from the consequences of a morally wrong action. But it would have been better if he had admitted to it, and it would have been the right thing to do.

See, I thought we had common ground! I agree with this completely. Not that I would've wanted it to take up an episode or anything.

 

 

I have no doubt he could gruff, swagger and seduce along with the best of them; he's that good. But his acting is very nuanced, I think it'd be wasted on the bomb blast that is Bond.

You know, I was just thinking something similar, he probably couldn't help making Bond a real person, and that would kind of ruin the essence of what Bond is, I guess. Bond is only fun because you don't have to take him seriously. And I have yet to see Mr. C. work like that. I'm not sure I want to, though...

 

Yeh, me neither, unless it's in a comic vein. I think he's brilliant at comedy. Oooooh, a comedy send-up of Bond! THAT, I'd like to see him in.

 

Really, maybe I have watched far too little television, but I so often think when I see Sherlock, wow, I've never seen a story told this way before.

I'm pretty sure I've seen a few (drawing a blank at the moment, though) -- but yeah, not many, and not recently.

[jesskayding]

 

 

Ha hahaaaaa haaa. Right!

[jesskayding]

I doubt Mary's past is as heroic as the one you picture. It's not like she worked for some agency, she went freelance. She did not come to England under witness protection. She did not receive a new identity by the government. She ran, and she did that on her own, with apparently a lot of money in the bag, since she does own a car, ("my car"), and living in the suburbs, no small feat. John worked part-time as a doctor to afford his share of living in Baker Street. Unless he won in the lottery, that money comes from Mary.

 

For all we know she still works in that particular field, what, with her keeping her gun and attire, both which are rather incriminating. She's not that out of practice, apparently, when you think of how she hit the coin. And according to Sherlock, him.

 

She said in 221... "People like Magnussen should be stopped" "that's why there are people like me".." Like me" implying she is the kind of assassin that get rid of people like Magnussen... Heroe assassin.

 

I thought we were all fans of this show?

[Caya]

So if I'm not idolizing Mary, I'm no longer a fan of this show? Charming.

 

And just for the record, Magnussen said that she had been a "bad girl" - and if someone like Magnussen considered what she did bad, it can hardly have been heroic.

[Zain]

I want Mary's past to be highly morally ambiguous and complicated and complex. I want it to fuel even more heated discussions and I want it to break my brain. I also want it to tie in to the rest of the story, so if she somehow has / had something to do with Moriarty as well, that would be great, I think. I'm such a sucker for "it's all connected" plot lines.

 

I could see that be interesting, but actually not with Mary. For me, that works because the character is, at the bottom of things, determined to do the right thing. The events then force the character into morally ambiguous and complicated and complex behavior, which may be wrong but motivated by good intentions. Like the saying: The road to hell is paved with good intentions. With Mary, I just cannot get this "is trying to do the right thing" vibe. Because it seems like she is never trying to do the right thing for others, only for herself, or only for others when she herself benefits, too.

But maybe season four will surprise me. Who knows... I doubt it....

 

 

 

Think of a lot of action series some of us enjoy... Alot of them involve "bad" assassins & "heroe" assassins. Based off convo between the 3 of them @ 221B... Mary was a heroe assassin. Just think of this as if we were watching James Bond, Mission Impossible, Cleopatra Jones... This isn't reality televisioI agree with T.O.B.Y... Magnussen is like a unreal character.. He's a fantasy " sort of villain"... I actually cracked up laughing after he got shot, because earlier he talked about the English keeping their heads low... Always apologizing... Then @ that moment he thinks he's won... These pathetic little Englishmen ( the petri dish of the Western World )... He yells to the helicopter its ok "They're Harmless!" Then one of those head hanging low Englishmen blows his head off...@ first my mouth hung open in surprise... Then I was like ... Haaaa " Haaaaarmlesss" I laughed & laughed for a good long minute.

 

I do not wish to offend you, and I hope that I will manage to put this as objectively as possible. I have never enjoyed or laughed at a scene when somebody is killed. I might simply have a different kind of humour, but to me every death is so unbelievably sad and a waste of potential. There are so many people that face death but want to live so desperately, it just does not feel right to wish it on someone, or to rejoice in someone's death. There are already enough unneceessary deaths... no need to add to them.

 

Magnussen was a flawed being with a lot of mistakes and a criminal. That does not make him into a monster that could never redeem itself. Killing him means that Sherlock erases all possibilities Magnussen had. Be it to act horrible, yes, but also the possibility to change. Sherlock basically took away the change for us to truly see Magnussen as a villain. His words remain empty threats, because Sherlock intervenes before it becomes self-defense. He might have endangered Mary, or he might just equally likely have not done it. We just do not know for sure. We cannot claim for sure he would have done it, and that is why it cannot be self-defense.

If Sherlock had killed him while Magnussen had been phoning up Mary's enemies, then it would be an excessive reaction, but at least then there's room to argue in favor of self-defense.

[jesskayding]

Also Sherlock wouldn't have told John he could trust Mary. Heroe assassin.. Obvious. Hay maybe that's how she'll die. Assassination gone wrong.

[Caya]

Yeah, and as we all know Sherlock has never been wrong about Mary, before .

[T.o.b.y]

So if I'm not idolizing Mary, I'm no longer a fan of this show? Charming.

 

And just for the record, Magnussen said that she had been a "bad girl" - and if someone like Magnussen considered what she did bad, it can hardly have been heroic.

 

Mmmm... I'm not sure whether Magnussen himself considered her actions "not right" or whether he was just gloating over what they would look like from John's point of view.

But I get what you mean. Magnussen's standards must be... interesting. When I read "porn preferences: normal", I immediately wondered what a guy like Magnussen would consider abnormal porn. Gah, I don't even want to think about speculation what he himself considers a turn on.

 

As far as I am concerned, you can dislike Mary all you like... I really love the series to death, but that doesn't stop me from criticizing it (or finding Mycroft repulsive... although he does have a certain weird appeal, too. His lines are just too funny).

 

Oh Mary. What a creation, to make people justify themselves for liking as well as for not liking her... What an absolute bomb. At least it seems most viewers can make up their minds about her. I really can't. On the one hand, there is something about her that bothers me. But it's not the killer thing, I'm afraid (I'm beginning to suspect that I'm the bad girl around here...). That only bothered me because it was too mainstream-action-thriller-TV for my taste. I don't know what it is. There's something in the way she interacts with Sherlock that grates on me. On the other hand, when I see her on screen, I cannot help but succumb to her charm. And I am fascinated by her ruthlessness and especially her two-facedness. She's really scary that way. Remember when she's sitting on the sofa comforting Kate and shooting reproachful glances at John for being so insensitive with her? That is the same woman who shot Sherlock in the chest and greeted him on his return to life with that scary sing-song "Sherlock - you don't tell John." WTF, right? I can't help but find a character like that appealing.

[Zain]

 

 

Mmmm... I'm not sure whether Magnussen himself considered her actions "not right" or whether he was just gloating over what they would look like from John's point of view.

 

 

But I get what you mean. Magnussen's standards must be... interesting. When I read "porn preferences: normal", I immediately wondered what a guy like Magnussen would consider abnormal porn. Gah, I don't even want to think about speculation what he himself considers a turn on.

 

 

 

 

 

Mh... power play?

 

 

Sorry. You just offered this entry, and I could NOT resist...

[Arcadia]

...Heroe assassin.. Obvious. Hay maybe that's how she'll die. Assassination gone wrong.

She accidentally shoots herself, you mean?

[jesskayding]

 

I want Mary's past to be highly morally ambiguous and complicated and complex. I want it to fuel even more heated discussions and I want it to break my brain. I also want it to tie in to the rest of the story, so if she somehow has / had something to do with Moriarty as well, that would be great, I think. I'm such a sucker for "it's all connected" plot lines.

I could see that be interesting, but actually not with Mary. For me, that works because the character is, at the bottom of things, determined to do the right thing. The events then force the character into morally ambiguous and complicated and complex behavior, which may be wrong but motivated by good intentions. Like the saying: The road to hell is paved with good intentions. With Mary, I just cannot get this "is trying to do the right thing" vibe. Because it seems like she is never trying to do the right thing for others, only for herself, or only for others when she herself benefits, too.

But maybe season four will surprise me. Who knows... I doubt it....

 

 

Think of a lot of action series some of us enjoy... Alot of them involve "bad" assassins & "heroe" assassins. Based off convo between the 3 of them @ 221B... Mary was a heroe assassin. Just think of this as if we were watching James Bond, Mission Impossible, Cleopatra Jones... This isn't reality televisioI agree with T.O.B.Y... Magnussen is like a unreal character.. He's a fantasy " sort of villain"... I actually cracked up laughing after he got shot, because earlier he talked about the English keeping their heads low... Always apologizing... Then @ that moment he thinks he's won... These pathetic little Englishmen ( the petri dish of the Western World )... He yells to the helicopter its ok "They're Harmless!" Then one of those head hanging low Englishmen blows his head off...@ first my mouth hung open in surprise... Then I was like ... Haaaa " Haaaaarmlesss" I laughed & laughed for a good long minute.

I do not wish to offend you, and I hope that I will manage to put this as objectively as possible. I have never enjoyed or laughed at a scene when somebody is killed. I might simply have a different kind of humour, but to me every death is so unbelievably sad and a waste of potential. There are so many people that face death but want to live so desperately, it just does not feel right to wish it on someone, or to rejoice in someone's death. There are already enough unneceessary deaths... no need to add to them.

 

Magnussen was a flawed being with a lot of mistakes and a criminal. That does not make him into a monster that could never redeem itself. Killing him means that Sherlock erases all possibilities Magnussen had. Be it to act horrible, yes, but also the possibility to change. Sherlock basically took away the change for us to truly see Magnussen as a villain. His words remain empty threats, because Sherlock intervenes before it becomes self-defense. He might have endangered Mary, or he might just equally likely have not done it. We just do not know for sure. We cannot claim for sure he would have done it, and that is why it cannot be self-defense.

If Sherlock had killed him while Magnussen had been phoning up Mary's enemies, then it would be an excessive reaction, but at least then there's room to argue in favor of self-defense.

 

I'm not offended.I rejoice when spiderman kills a villain. I always rejoice when the bad guy loses. It makes me glad when one like Magnussen no longer needs to be worried about. The reason I'm a fan of this show is because I think the writers and actors are brilliant. I love every decision that has been done on this show. I like every emotion I've had, which is why I look forward to the next one. I've not been disappointed with any thing. Except for a few editing mistakes in SO3. They really should have caught those... I love this show!

 

Your comments won't keep me from enjoying the irony of that man getting shot & killed by a man that he thought would not do it... Because he was after all a pathetic Englishman. So if you are reading between the lines... The shooting caused my mouth to open wide in surprise.. It was the irony of it all that made me lose it with laughter.

 

Also if you've followed my post you know I don't believe in gun violence in Real Life.. This is a TV show. I'm not apart of some political convention to outlaw guns or to get tighter restrictions on gun control. I'm just talking about my reactions to a TV series on a Sherlock forum.

[jesskayding]

She accidentally shoots herself, you mean?

 

Yeah... Oh no.. Maybe in the foot, then she falls off a ledge somewhere to her unfortunate demise. Then on John will go to marry his 6th wife... That veil covered urn.

[jesskayding]

So if I'm not idolizing Mary, I'm no longer a fan of this show? Charming.

 

And just for the record, Magnussen said that she had been a "bad girl" - and if someone like Magnussen considered what she did bad, it can hardly have been heroic.

 

I apologize.. Didn't mean to apply you're not a fan. Of course you are. You're on a forum. Can't get too much more obsessed than that. Also if you've seen any of my previous post... You'd know I'm no where nears a fan of Mary. I can't wait for her character to die. I'm looking forward to it. For all our sakes it seems to not go over well if she's shot dead, so hopefully they'll be a bit creative for her demise.

[T.o.b.y]

 

hopefully they'll be a bit creative for her demise.

 

No... Please, no... At least that is one thing I am pretty sure of, I do not want Mary to die. She can leave, if the writers feel she must. That'd be fine with me. She could divorce John or she could disappear or... but I don't want her dead and I certainly do not want to watch her being killed. I particularly do not want to see John see her killed.

 

The only possible redeeming feature of a scenario where Mary dies would be to watch Sherlock's reaction. I am sure poor Sherlock would freak out in some way, and I am sure it would be great. And heaven help her killer.

 

 

Back to Magnussen for a moment: I do not like villain deaths for the revenge value, by the way. I am afraid I'm not too interested in justice in fiction. It's more the relief that they are gone, that the threat they presented has been removed. I am a scaredy-cat, and people like Magnussen or Moriarty make me cringe. I love this "oh, my hero" feeling I get when somebody gets rid of them. If he can do it without killing them, fine - like, if my husband can get a spider out of the room alive and release it in the wild, I'm very happy with that. But often, there is no other way (in fiction) to make sure the world is safe again. And so I'll take what I can get. And I do like a bit of darkness... And that "Merry Christmas" thing, that was glorious!

 

[Zain]

 

 

And that "Merry Christmas" thing, that was glorious!

 

 

 

That was just so a hommage to Cabin Pressure, Yverdon-Les-Brains.

Probably the only thing I enjoyed after they showed how Mary gets off without consequences. I love intertextuality.

[Caya]

 

I apologize.. Didn't mean to apply you're not a fan. Of course you are. You're on a forum. Can't get too much more obsessed than that. Also if you've seen any of my previous post... You'd know I'm no where nears a fan of Mary. I can't wait for her character to die. I'm looking forward to it. For all our sakes it seems to not go over well if she's shot dead, so hopefully they'll be a bit creative for her demise.

 

It's all good then. Whether we wish for Mary to raise half a dozen kids and grow old together with John or die messily, in a way that would make GRRM wince, ten seconds into the Christmas special, we're all a happy family here .

 

 

[jesskayding]

 

 

hopefully they'll be a bit creative for her demise.

No... Please, no... At least that is one thing I am pretty sure of, I do not want Mary to die. She can leave, if the writers feel she must. That'd be fine with me. She could divorce John or she could disappear or... but I don't want her dead and I certainly do not want to watch her being killed. I particularly do not want to see John see her killed.

 

The only possible redeeming feature of a scenario where Mary dies would be to watch Sherlock's reaction. I am sure poor Sherlock would freak out in some way, and I am sure it would be great. And heaven help her killer.

 

 

Back to Magnussen for a moment: I do not like villain deaths for the revenge value, by the way. I am afraid I'm not too interested in justice in fiction. It's more the relief that they are gone, that the threat they presented has been removed. I am a scaredy-cat, and people like Magnussen or Moriarty make me cringe. I love this "oh, my hero" feeling I get when somebody gets rid of them. If he can do it without killing them, fine - like, if my husband can get a spider out of the room alive and release it in the wild, I'm very happy with that. But often, there is no other way (in fiction) to make sure the world is safe again. And so I'll take what I can get. And I do like a bit of darkness... And that "Merry Christmas" thing, that was glorious!

Yes! I forgot..."Merry Christmas " that was so fabulous!

[Zain]

 

 

It's all good then. Whether we wish for Mary to raise half a dozen kids and grow old together with John or die messily, in a way that would make GRRM wince, ten seconds into the Christmas special, we're all a happy family here .

 

 

Let's hope so. I hope the Christmas special will be a flashback of some sort. Maybe let us explore how Sherlock and Lestrade met.

Which is possible. Not the Lestrade bit. But that it is a flashback. The end of HLV is not well-suited for an interlude episode, unless you either make it a spin-off or flashback. Very difficult to make it a believable chronologically following episode.

 

I could do with a flashback. No Mary, and one last episode before the big bang... which will probably be very disappointing to me. Could be a form of closure, too.