Speedy's Cafe - General Chat about anything you like!

[Hikari]

Koo-pon. 

 

I have no problem with rural but always get tongue tied with prescription. 

 

Penguin is actually Welsh and is made up of two words - pen, meaning head, and gwyn, meaning white. Maybe if he'd known it was two words it would have helped?

 

Something else this is quintessentially British, which I don't think I've encountered anywhere else, is how often we apologise to each other. Earlier I heard four separate people apologise to each other in the space of about thirty seconds. Why? Because they were passing each other in a doorway or corridor. 

 

Midwesterners (USA variant) are known for apologizing a lot, too.  New Yorkers and other big-city types can spot a Midwestern tourist a mile off by how often we preface every question or remark with an "I'm sorry!" 

 

Not that the town I'm in is that polite . . .but maybe out Wisconsin way I'd find it more.

 

Thanks for the etymology of 'penguin'.  Makes terrific sense.  Yes, poor Bendi--if he'd just drawn a line between the syllables and gotten 'PEN' out, pause, Gwyn, I think he would have been fine.  It was the PENGuin that was throwing him, I suppose.

 

I suppose a few others have noticed Ben's charming, very slight speech impediment now and then?  Just adds to his mystique.

 

I know we're all about Sherlock 'round here, but if you haven't seen Cumberbatch in "The Imitation Game" or more recently, his Richard III for the Hollow Crown, hie thee hither to a video streaming portal and check those out.  Sherlock is great, but seriously, *these* are the roles that prove that our Ben deserves to be Sir Ben one day.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Okay, everyone, here's a quizzer:

 

COUPON:

 

Do you say "QUE-pon'

 

Or

 

"KOO-pon"?

 

I've always said QUE-pon.  I would do the phonetic spelling as KYOO-pon, but I think we're talking about the same thing.  KOO-pon sounds just a bit affected to me.

 

If you fail to find the dulcet American tones charming likewise, we understand.  We can barely stand the sound of our own voices.

 

The British pronunciation of many shared words is notable for how it separates each and every syllable, vs. we Yanks who are too lax or in too much of a hurry to be arzed and just run them all together.

 

Hey, speak for yourself!  I enjoy a good British accent myself (or nearly any accent, for that matter), but that doesn't mean that I dislike my own.  Hearing a real down-home Hoosier accent makes me feel (logically enough) right at home.  (I will admit, though, that there are just a few minor American regional accents that can set my teeth on edge.)

 

As for the British treasuring each and every syllable -- have you ever met a Brit named Cholmondeley (pronounced "Chumly") or Marjoribanks (pronounced "Marchbanks")?  Then there's secretary (pronounced "secret'ry") and other words of that sort.  They may pronounce syllables that we don't -- but vice versa also applies.

 

I think most people say byoo-ti-full, but I have heard the initial vowels enunciated more clearly, so more like be-a-yoo-ti-full.

That strikes me as -- dunno what to call it, overpronunciation?  I assume that the "beau" part is from the French word of the same spelling, which is also one syllable in French (though with a different pronunciation).  I can imagine someone saying it all broken up for emphasis, but I've never heard that it's supposed to be the "correct" way to say it.

 

Otherwise, I make a mess of rural, which tends to come out "rurl," unless you are giving an address, like "Rural Route (RR) 1," which invariably becomes "rull route."

 

Yup.  Not sure why, but I think it may be something about the initial R.

[Pseudonym]

Since we're on language, I just came across this. Ahhh, the Fins. 

 

English: It fits like a glove.

Spanish: It fits like a ring on the finger.

Italian: It fits like shoes painted on with a brush.

 

Finnish: It fits like a fist in the eye. 

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Penguin is actually Welsh and is made up of two words - pen, meaning head, and gwyn, meaning white.

 

Something else this is quintessentially British, which I don't think I've encountered anywhere else, is how often we apologise to each other. Earlier I heard four separate people apologise to each other in the space of about thirty seconds. Why? Because they were passing each other in a doorway or corridor. 

 

I once did a statistical analysis of John Watson's use of "sorry."  Don't have my figures with me here, but as I recall, it averaged something like once every five minutes in "Study in Pink."  Of course, most of them were not actual apologies, more like apologies-in-advance for disagreeing and the like.  He tapered off pretty quickly after that, though.

 

If "gwyn" is Welsh for "white," then I assume the surname variously spelt Gwynn, Gwinn, or Gwenn also means "White"?  That was the surname of one of Mom's grandmothers.  The other one's maiden name was Jones.  Lotta Welsh on Mom's side of the family!

[Pseudonym]

The first two I'd think so, not sure about the third one since it looks like it's pronounced differently. Maybe?

 

The 'sorrys' I heard earlier aren't really apologies either. More like, 'I see you, I acknowledge we must pass uncomfortably close, I shall make comment on it and expect you to do the same with a mutual mumble of 'sorry.''

[Carol the Dabbler]

The first two I'd think so, not sure about the third one since it looks like it's pronounced differently. Maybe?

 

Dunno where each of the three names arose, nor (if they are the same) where the divergence occurred, but if it was anywhere around here, the pronunciation would be about the same.

 

Sure I've posted this before, but I once overheard two twelve-year-old girls talking.  One asked, "Kin I borry a pin?" to which the other replied, "Do you mean a safety pin or a ink pin?"

[SherlockedCAMPer]

If I remember correctly from my university professor who was raised in Denver during his early years, pin and pen are pronounced almost the same in that state or at least that area of the state.

[Carol the Dabbler]

As I recall, there's a pretty broad area where that's true.  Lemme go look.

 

Ah, yes, it's called the "pin-pen merger."  It's primarily a southern feature, but as you can see on the map I linked to, it also covers most of Indiana, and as the accompanying text mentions, there are pockets of the merger in other parts of the US, including Colorado.

 

[Pseudonym]

Pin and pen sound different here. I'm also impressed a twelve year old girl was organised enough to even have safety pins. Unless the answer was going to be 'no, because I don't have one.'

[Carol the Dabbler]

You're not far from an area where they sound the same, though. According to the article that I linked to above, the pin-pen merger is common in southern and southwestern Ireland (which may well be where we Americans got it from).

[T.o.b.y]

 

 

I say "koo-pon".

 

Hikari, have you discovered the language and travel thread yet? Seems like that might interest you. If I weren't on my phone, I would post a link here.

Thanks for the tip, T. I am still navigating the features of this site but I will be sure to check that thread out.

 

So where in the world are you?

Germany, actually. But I grew up speaking both English and German because half my family is American.

[Boton]

 

 

Been watching Japanese comedies at night.  I really want one of those heater tables, whatever they are called.

 

Kotatsu.

 

 

Yes, that's it; thank you!  I actually knew the name at one point when I was reading lots of manga, but the closed captioning on this show keeps saying "heater table," and I lost knowledge of the word.

 

 

 

 

 

Something else this is quintessentially British, which I don't think I've encountered anywhere else, is how often we apologise to each other. Earlier I heard four separate people apologise to each other in the space of about thirty seconds. Why? Because they were passing each other in a doorway or corridor. 

 

Midwesterners (USA variant) are known for apologizing a lot, too.  New Yorkers and other big-city types can spot a Midwestern tourist a mile off by how often we preface every question or remark with an "I'm sorry!" 

 

 

 

 

Sorry; just sticking my head in here to agree with you.  :D

 

 

 

 

 

Otherwise, I make a mess of rural, which tends to come out "rurl," unless you are giving an address, like "Rural Route (RR) 1," which invariably becomes "rull route."

 

Yup.  Not sure why, but I think it may be something about the initial R.

 

 

Just had a student yesterday pronounce the word as "rule."  

 

If I remember correctly from my university professor who was raised in Denver during his early years, pin and pen are pronounced almost the same in that state or at least that area of the state.

 

I'm not in Denver, but pin/pen are the same to me.  I also pronounce marry/merry/Mary the same and Erin/Aaron. I really think I only have one vowel sound that I'm able to hear and pronounce, so all words get the same vowel.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Something else this is quintessentially British, which I don't think I've encountered anywhere else, is how often we apologise to each other. Earlier I heard four separate people apologise to each other in the space of about thirty seconds. Why? Because they were passing each other in a doorway or corridor.

 

Midwesterners (USA variant) are known for apologizing a lot, too.  New Yorkers and other big-city types can spot a Midwestern tourist a mile off by how often we preface every question or remark with an "I'm sorry!"

 

Sorry; just sticking my head in here to agree with you.  :D

 

Can't actually disagree, but I think it's more often "excuse me" around here.

 

Otherwise, I make a mess of rural, which tends to come out "rurl," unless you are giving an address, like "Rural Route (RR) 1," which invariably becomes "rull route."

 

Just had a student yesterday pronounce the word as "rule."

I think I've heard it said that way.  Just one of those awkward words, I guess.

 

If I remember correctly from my university professor who was raised in Denver during his early years, pin and pen are pronounced almost the same in that state or at least that area of the state.

 

I'm not in Denver, but pin/pen are the same to me.  I also pronounce marry/merry/Mary the same and Erin/Aaron. I really think I only have one vowel sound that I'm able to hear and pronounce, so all words get the same vowel.

According to that Wikipedia article, pin/pen occurs in Denver, but isn't the usual pronunciation there.  'Course it's apparently not the usual pronunciation in Ohio either -- but I believe you said you grew up in Indiana, so that probably explains it.  The rest of what you're describing is just ordinary Midland pronunciation, which includes both Ohio and Indiana.  I'm willing to bet that you do make a distinction between, say, pen (or pin) and pan.

[Arcadia]

I'm not in Denver, but pin/pen are the same to me.  I also pronounce marry/merry/Mary the same and Erin/Aaron. I really think I only have one vowel sound that I'm able to hear and pronounce, so all words get the same vowel.

Ditto.

 

I'm still trying to figure out how the British manage to get "aluminium" out of a word that's spelled "aluminum." Or "alazarian" out of a word that's spelled "alizarin."

 

And how come my spell check doesn't flag any of those spellings? Hmmm ... alazarian. Aluminium. Aha ... if you put the word in quotes, the spell check lets it through. Something else I never knew before!

[T.o.b.y]

According to Wikipedia, both "aluminum" and "aluminium" are correct. There's a whole section of the article dedicated to the story of how scientists disagreed on the name for decades. Very funny.

[Boton]

 

According to that Wikipedia article, pin/pen occurs in Denver, but isn't the usual pronunciation there.  'Course it's apparently not the usual pronunciation in Ohio either -- but I believe you said you grew up in Indiana, so that probably explains it.  The rest of what you're describing is just ordinary Midland pronunciation, which includes both Ohio and Indiana.  I'm willing to bet that you do make a distinction between, say, pen (or pin) and pan.

 

 

Yes, I grew up in Indiana, and parts of my family were quite rural (aaaagh!), so that's probably it.  I do make a distinction between pen/pin and pan.

 

I will tell a story on myself.  Growing up, we didn't just muddy up our vowels, but there were a few consonants that were problematic as well.  In particular, we pronounced the word for cow dung (manure) not as man-oo-ur but as ba-nur.  I once went to the hardware store in spring to get some to fertilize my garden (angry as heck that I had to buy cow dung), and they said they didn't have it.  A friend heard the story and said, "now, go back to the store and ask for man-oo-ur and see if you have any luck."  I did.   :D

[Pseudonym]

They must have thought 'I don't know what the hell ba-nur is, but I know we don't have it.'

 

Our politicians seem to be dropping like flies. Sacked, suspended, resigned... 

[Fantasy Lover]

I heard about that, looks like May has lost control.

[Pseudonym]

Quite a lot of it is more related to Weinstein than May. 

[Fantasy Lover]

You said politicians, not actors, hence my presumption. But you're right, it's because of the metoo campaign that it's happening in the first place.

[Pseudonym]

Yep, it's politicians. What I mean is that a few of them (not all) have been sacked due to allegations of rape or sexual harassment, which since Weinstein et al are currently in the spotlight for those things people have started coming out with allegations against politicians too. 

[T.o.b.y]

It's certainly sparking interesting discussions in the media... I read an article today about a survey on what is considered sexual harassment (by society, not necessarily the law) around the world and some of the results surprised me. For example, roughly 20% of Germans interviewed were said to include a man looking at a woman's breasts under that term. And the article said this was low compared to other countries.

 

How can you tell whether someone is looking at your anatomy? Seriously, it sounds like a job for Sherlock to me.

 

I am apparently quite clueless on these matters. I remember once in high school, two guys asked for my help with a math problem. I leaned over their table to have a look and my friend later indignantly told me that instead of listening to what I was saying, they had been looking down my shirt the whole time, also that they had probably only asked for my help to get me to lean over.

 

It wouldn't have occurred to me if she hadn't pointed it out. I always assumed boys weren't interested in me that way. They certainly didn't act as if they were.

 

People can be so strange.

[Pseudonym]

It is hard to know what is harassment and what isn't in some cases. I'm glad people are (maybe) getting their comeuppance, but it must be so hard for people who have had similar things happen to them to be constantly reminded of it every time they turn on the news. I've never had anything really awful happen, thank god, but it does make me mull on some of the bad things that have happened to me and think about them more than I would like. 

 

Maybe a big part of whether it's sexual harassment is the power dynamics and how it makes you feel. One of the things I keep thinking about made me run home and sob for hours afterwards. Other things just made me feel incredibly uncomfortable or knocked my confidence about doing certain things. But none of those things were breaking the law when it comes down to it. In which case how could it be enforced? Its difficult. 

[Boton]

I agree, it's tough to know what is in the grey area of sexual harassment.  When the  whole #metoo thing was happening, lots of women confidently said they didn't know a *single woman* who had not been sexually harassed.  I tried my darndest to thing of something that happened to me that qualified.  Yeah, I've had people assume I was a secretary when I wasn't, but part of that was context, not just gender.  I've been whistled at and called at on the street; it was never vulgar, and it didn't bother me.  I've had men look down a low cut shirt, but hey, I picked the shirt, and it wasn't like they were looking exclusively down there.  So, if I've been harassed, it has been so subtle or I have such a high threshhold that I didn't even notice.  (Not saying it doesn't happen to others.)

 

And...well, I have a question, but I want to handle this delicately, but maybe you guys have some perspective that I haven't thought of.  Now, let me say up front that if a woman says she felt uncomfortable or taken advantage of, I believe that she felt that way.  I take allegations of assault very seriously.

 

But as part of the #metoo campaign, I saw several women -- mostly well educated, middle or upper class, and suburban (read, typically in safe environments or in ones where they might have had some measure of control) - say that they had been raped *several times* in their lives.  My question is if the meaning of the word "rape" has shifted without me quite knowing it and grown to encompass things that I'm not considering, because it seems unlikely that I would encounter a significant number of women who had experienced rape multiple times.  (And yes, I'm factoring in acquaintance rape as rape, not just stranger rape.)

[T.o.b.y]

I am afraid I can't help you there, Boton. But I think there's this to consider: not everybody who is in a safe environment now has always lived that way. Date rape is definitely a thing and the factors you describe don't protect people from that. And intimate partner violence is also a thing and people don't always leave abusive relationships right away.

 

Pseudonym, I think you're right in that power imbalance is probably a big factor. It's one thing to be leered at or cat called by school boys and quite another thing if your boss is doing it.

 

I hate it when people abuse their power, in any way. No wonder I think Magnussen is the worst villain on Sherlock.