Speedy's Cafe - General Chat about anything you like!

[Hikari]

I hope I can find access to 'Miss Sherlock', too.  I have watched the trailer some dozen times at least trying to get some of the Japanese vocabulary down.  Sherlock's signature phrase, "Once you have eliminated the impossible, etc." is a very long and chewy sentence enough in English (14 words).  In Japanese it's extremely daunting.

 

I expressed before that it's really surprising and bold for this female Sherlock to have been devised in Japan.   Japan leads the world in the number of its female citizens who have earned university degrees, and yet the professional opportunities for all these highly-educated women are scarce.  Even now, in 2018, the prevailing expectation for women is that they will work for a few years at an undemanding job in the service industry or light office work and then will leave to get married and have children, thereby fulfilling the true destiny for a woman--to raise up the next generation of Japanese.  Married working mothers are a decided minority in Japan, outside of a few industries like hospitality (ie, the 'mizu shobai'--the bar life/entertainment sector) or education.  The happiest working women I met there, the ones who were able to combine family and working life were teachers.  The corporate world is not so kind and actively discourages married women from continuing to work.  Pregnant women tend to resign before they can be removed.  The bulk of feminine power still happens behind the scenes at home, much as it ever has.  For all their cutting edge technology and national presence on the world stage, the social dynamic in Japan is still straight out of 'Mad Men' in many significant areas.  Despite surpassing males in the ranks of university enrollees/grads (and successful students of English, I might add), females are deemed, subtly or not so subtly, as second-class brains to men, without the stomach for the grueling workaday rat race, who need to focus on obtaining husbands so they can make babies for Japan, particularly in these times of falling birthrates.  A husband and family is still to be a woman's #1 achievement and preoccupation.  A woman still single in her mid-20s is called 'Christmas cake'.  Like the confectionary, nobody wants it after the 25th because its sell-by date has passed.

 

So the idea of a female with Sherlock Holmes's singularity of mind and life dedicated to work and Reason, not domesticity . . an attractive and accomplished woman, furthermore, who refuses to be decorative but who gets her jollies at gruesome crime scenes and mucking about with dead bodies and who shouts orders at men in unattractive, unladylike tones . . this is all very unbefitting of a traditional Japanese young lady.  I will be interested to see what kind of reception the show gets in its home country.  Guys will tune in because Miss Sherlock is hot, and because there are hints of amorous tension between her and Miss Wato-san.  Women will tune in, perhaps, to live vicariously through this rigorously unconventional woman, who is living the kind of life, in her career and personal conduct, that they wish they could get away with. 

 

Sherlock Holmes is unconventional even for a man, but really he is just an amplification of acceptably-masculine traits.  Women traditionally are the nurturers and the softer, civilizing influences upon society, and especially in very tradition-bound cultures like Japan this is even more so the case.  We've had other literary examples of 'Sherlock-like' female characters in detective fiction--mavericks who buck most or all of the societal conventions for women--from Smilla in Smilla's Sense of Snow to Lisbeth Salander to Saga Noren of 'Bron/Broen'--these are all female Sherlock types in their ways of working and relating to society.  Japan's foray into this territory will be interesting to watch.  I do hope 'Miss Sherlock' will actually be a well-developed program and not just turn out to be a provocative casting stunt that peters out because they can't sustain it beyond the High Concept.

[Boton]

In some ways, you have Sherlock's female mirror image in Molly, who is an intelligent, resourceful, yet socially-awkward woman. Now it's not a a one-to-one comparison because Molly is an original character who has evolved over time, and Sherlock is an adaptation of the Victorian character.  But think about the fact that both John and Molly hit Sherlock when he was using drugs.  John's actions, because they were so much more violent (which is partially possible because he's a man) read as violent, whereas Molly's slaps read as spunky.  Sherlock is able to stand and take it while Molly hits him, while he cowers on the floor during John's attack.  The situations aren't completely analogous, but I think some things come across differently depending on gender, and social awkwardness may in some cases blunt gender differences but it doesn't erase them.

[Pseudonym]

Yes, that makes sense, good point. :smile:

 

Plus, like I said in the original post, John's reactions to Sherlock already read as overly violent in some places, but some people seem fine to shrug them off. I don't think anyone would be able to if Sherlock were a woman. It would have to be written differently. 

 

 

[T.o.b.y]

Yes, that makes sense good point. :smile:

 

Plus, like I said in the original post, John's reactions to Sherlock already read as overly violent in some places, but some people seem fine to shrug them off. I don't think anyone would be able to if Sherlock were a woman. It would have to be written differently. 

 

That's very true! Those scenes would only work if John was a woman as well, which, btw, I feel would require more changes to his character in this particular incarnation (the Watson character in general I think could very well be female in a modern setting, just like the Holmes character, but John as played by Martin Freeman is very masculine, imo.

[Boton]

Totally agree.

 

(With both Pseud and Toby, who was typing while I was!)

[Pseudonym]

Yes, MF's portrayal is a very masculine John. I'd like to see a female John who were closer to his portrayal though - someone as competent and clearly military as he is in S1. Maybe also with PTSD (though I'm still not sure if MF's John is meant to have PTSD or not). The fact they took everything John-like away from Joan Watson in Elementary still irks me. Why couldn't they have kept her an army doctor? It would have made for a much more interesting character then the one they ended up with. 

[Boton]

I agree.  Grey's Anatomy has done some really good work creating female military doctors; to me, they seem very natural and intriguing.  I like the added layer to their personality/background.

[Hikari]

In some ways, you have Sherlock's female mirror image in Molly, who is an intelligent, resourceful, yet socially-awkward woman. Now it's not a a one-to-one comparison because Molly is an original character who has evolved over time, and Sherlock is an adaptation of the Victorian character.  But think about the fact that both John and Molly hit Sherlock when he was using drugs.  John's actions, because they were so much more violent (which is partially possible because he's a man) read as violent, whereas Molly's slaps read as spunky.  Sherlock is able to stand and take it while Molly hits him, while he cowers on the floor during John's attack.  The situations aren't completely analogous, but I think some things come across differently depending on gender, and social awkwardness may in some cases blunt gender differences but it doesn't erase them.

 

Molly does have more in common with Sherlock from a professional/social point of view than any other character on the show, even John.  Watson is a doctor, and as such certainly knows how to use a microscope . . but his training as a physician who deals with the living would be different, as well as he temperamentally is different, from the cold, abstract clinical training of a pathologist.  Not that Molly is a personally cold individual, but she's an introvert who marches to the beat of her own drummer (witness how she dresses) and that has influenced her choice of profession. 

 

This is why I have always thought that if Sherl were interested in making a relationship with a woman, Molly would be the best choice.  She is accustomed to and tolerant of his moods and demands.  She's got an excellent brain and clinical skills.  Unlike him, she's not an amateur at microscope work, and her knowledge in her area of expertise would even surpass his (they tacitly agree not to acknowledge this out loud).  Sherl isn't interested in romance . .but look how much time he spends in Molly's lab.  Presumably there are other labs in London he could work in if he found her company onerous.  She's easygoing and comfortable to be with, and, I imagine, Sherl would find her conversation about various cadavers she has known and curious postmortems far more stimulating than an ordinary person would.  As a life companion, he could do much worse.  Molly gets his S&%#.  She's got a Freak Flag, too . . she just is more timid about flying it as high on the pole as Sherl does.  I think if they got together she would get out of her shell more as her hero-worship was replaced with a more realistic assessment of his human foibles.  (Not that Sherl admits to any human foibles, but any domestic partner, long-term associate or Big Brother definitely knows they are there.)  We saw this happening with Molls at the end of S3 and continuing.  In TAB, Hooper was positively contentious!

 

Okay, Sherlolly plug now over.  As to Boton's remarks re. abuse scenarios and what is gender-acceptable, I concur.

 

As a corollary to that, there's Sharon Stone's famous quote on her own reputation in Hollywood:  "A *itch is a person with a vagina and a point of view."  Men who are forceful and insistent on their point of view carrying the day are considered strong, assertive, successful.  They become CEOs and top sales earners and politicians.  A forceful assertive woman who refuses to give way to dissenting (male) opinion is labeled a *itch. . . Difficult, erratic, potentially unstable . . nasty, unkind . . .in short, not a flattering example of woman-hood.  If a man gets called a *itch, it's generally because he's gay and that's like, a top insult.  Very telling, language.

[Hikari]

Yes, MF's portrayal is a very masculine John. I'd like to see a female John who were closer to his portrayal though - someone as competent and clearly military as he is in S1. Maybe also with PTSD (though I'm still not sure if MF's John is meant to have PTSD or not). The fact they took everything John-like away from Joan Watson in Elementary still irks me. Why couldn't they have kept her an army doctor? It would have made for a much more interesting character then the one they ended up with. 

 

Granted, we have only been able to preview a few seconds of 'Wato-san' in "Miss Sherlock" so far, but the impression I get is this 'Watson' is going to be very much more the timid, conventional interpretation of a Japanese young lady . .(Note the very conventional long ponytail to Miss Sherlock's chic but more avante garde look).  Long hair is traditional.  Miss Wato also seems to be a bit of a frumpy dresser, contrasted with Miss Sherlock's sharper professional, vaguely masculine clothes.  Wato-san's job is unclear.  We see her clutching an armful of mail and looking worried.  Is she an administrative assistant?  A receptionist? A nurse?  Hard to say.  Definitely not a military doctor.  It will likely be some very traditional female support staff role.  Wato's function (as is Watson's) is to highlight how very *different* the Sherlock is by embodying 'the cultural norm'.

[Pseudonym]

I agree.  Grey's Anatomy has done some really good work creating female military doctors; to me, they seem very natural and intriguing.  I like the added layer to their personality/background.

 

Plus lady!John would be excellent surprise back-up.

 

The criminal has Sherlock pinned up against a wall. He hears footsteps coming down the alley, turns to look and sees sweet little blonde lady John. 

"Get outta here, sweetheart, this ain't none of your business."

Lady John, slowly coming closer, "Right, yea, except that's my best mate you've got pinned against that wall, so..."

Lady John shrugs, then darts closer and takes him out. 

[T.o.b.y]

I definitely think it would be easier to preserve the typical Holmes / Watson dynamic if they were both written as women.

[Pseudonym]

Going off topic a sec, does anyone have any suggestions for songs that are atmospheric but fast enough to exercise to? Even soundtracks would be good, stuff a bit creepy but lively enough to keep me going. I'm doing Zombie Run and lively pop songs feel wrong popping up between zombie attacks. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Despite surpassing males in the ranks of university enrollees/grads (and successful students of English, I might add), [Japanese] females are deemed, subtly or not so subtly, as second-class brains to men, without the stomach for the grueling workaday rat race....

 

Things are like that here as well, just not as extreme.  Look at just about any large corporation or leading university.  Who are the executives or the tenured professors?  Practically all men.  And it's my contention that it's because women have more sense than to spend 100% of their time and energy on their job.  We tend to have a life!

 

... think about the fact that both John and Molly hit Sherlock when he was using drugs.  John's actions, because they were so much more violent (which is partially possible because he's a man) read as violent, whereas Molly's slaps read as spunky.  Sherlock is able to stand and take it while Molly hits him, while he cowers on the floor during John's attack.  The situations aren't completely analogous, but I think some things come across differently depending on gender, and social awkwardness may in some cases blunt gender differences but it doesn't erase them.

 

I assume when you say "partially possible because he's a man," you mean (even ignoring the fact that he's a trained fighter) John can hit harder than Molly because testosterone makes for bigger, stronger muscles.  If Molly had kicked Sherlock while he was down, the way John did, it wouldn't have looked as violent because it wouldn't have *been* as violent -- and might even have looked a bit silly.

[Boton]

... think about the fact that both John and Molly hit Sherlock when he was using drugs. John's actions, because they were so much more violent (which is partially possible because he's a man) read as violent, whereas Molly's slaps read as spunky. Sherlock is able to stand and take it while Molly hits him, while he cowers on the floor during John's attack. The situations aren't completely analogous, but I think some things come across differently depending on gender, and social awkwardness may in some cases blunt gender differences but it doesn't erase them.

I assume when you say "partially possible because he's a man," you mean (even ignoring the fact that he's a trained fighter) John can hit harder than Molly because testosterone makes for bigger, stronger muscles. If Molly had kicked Sherlock while he was down, the way John did, it wouldn't have looked as violent because it wouldn't have *been* as violent -- and might even have looked a bit silly.

Exactly.

 

 

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[Pseudonym]

Ooo, all changed! I thought it had been quiet on here. 

[Arcadia]

Well, mostly it was just the usual weekend quiet, I think. Although the site was inaccessible for at least a little while.

[Pseudonym]

Seemed quiet Friday too... though it might have all been kicking off in a thread I don't follow for all I know. 

[Arcadia]

Geez, that was three days ago, I have no memory of it. Oh geez, the emotie codes are different ... ak. Off to report it....

[Pseudonym]

Run! Run like the wind!

[Hikari]

On ‎2‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 12:56 AM, Boton said:

 

Exactly.

 

 

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I don't think I'd find the spectacle of anyone kicking anyone down on the floor silly, regardless of who was doing the kicking.  That was a very #FeelsSoBad moment in S4.  Yeah, we've seen John punching Sherlock several times (albeit, the first time was at Sherl's request.  John did not do it until he was provoked (ie, getting punched in the face).  Punchings and head-buttings that result in bloody noses strain the bounds of friendship a tad  . .  but even a Sherlock with napkins stuffed up his nose to staunch the bleeding is still in the realm of acceptably humorous, because we know that oftentimes blokes communicate their displeasure with one another by punching each other . .and also, I think most of the viewers probably agree that Sherlock Had It Coming.

In TLD scene, Mary is dead, John is grieving . . and both John and Sherlock hold Sherlock responsible for this.  But the vicious kicking which Sherlock receives from his erstwhile best and only friend has no elements of 'He had it coming'.  Were those kicks real, Sherl would likely have suffered from internal ruptures and would definitely have grounds for an aggravated assault/GBH charge.  We know that Watson is very, very angry and hurting, and he blames Sherlock for everything . . but even so, it feels that Moffat took John many steps too far in his anger, out of the realm of what Watson, a civilized man, would do to someone he cared about, even in extremis.  Punching a friend, yeah.  Breaking a friend's ribs and causing ruptured kidneys? . . .Teetering into criminally psychotic behavior.  That never jived with me as something which John would do, kick a friend that viciously when he was down . .even if he hates this friend in this moment.  I think he'd sooner punch the wall and break his own hand, and walk away.

The level of violence is in no way commensurate with Molly's brisk slaps of Sherlock's face.  Face-slapping is a traditionally feminine mode of fighting, along with hair-pulling and scratching.  It would have looked silly had Watson slapped Sherlock's face . . but what John did in TLD was as shocking in its violence as it would have been if Molly had punched Sherlock hard three times in the gut, or smashed him over the head with a  blunt object. It's true that kicking someone is not generally a way that females express aggression . . but it's rare for men to do it, either.  If you kick someone who's down that hard and that much, you really aren't interested in having them get up again.

[Pseudonym]

I completely agree. And Greg's reaction bugs me too. If I remember correctly John says something along the lines of 'I hit him, I hit him really hard' and Greg just shrugs it off. He's a copper, I'm sure he's dealt with plenty of vicious domestic violence and serious assault calls, he should, at the very least, point out that that kind of thing is not acceptable. And I would argue he should go further, not arrest John, since there is no way Sherlock would ever press charges, but he should at least point out that Sherlock definitely has grounds to. Especially if Greg's seen Sherlock and witnessed first hand the damage John did. 

If Greg hasn't seen Sherlock, he might just think John's exaggerating, but since it's an interview about what happened I'm inclined to think Greg has seen Sherlock and witnessed first hand that he looks like someone has beaten the sh*t out of him.  

[Carol the Dabbler]

4 hours ago, Hikari said:

In TLD scene, Mary is dead, John is grieving . . and both John and Sherlock hold Sherlock responsible for this.  But the vicious kicking which Sherlock receives from his erstwhile best and only friend has no elements of 'He had it coming'.  Were those kicks real, Sherl would likely have suffered from internal ruptures and would definitely have grounds for an aggravated assault/GBH charge.  We know that Watson is very, very angry and hurting, and he blames Sherlock for everything . . but even so, it feels that Moffat took John many steps too far in his anger, out of the realm of what Watson, a civilized man, would do to someone he cared about, even in extremis.  Punching a friend, yeah.  Breaking a friend's ribs and causing ruptured kidneys? . . .Teetering into criminally psychotic behavior.  That never jived with me as something which John would do, kick a friend that viciously when he was down . .even if he hates this friend in this moment.  I think he'd sooner punch the wall and break his own hand, and walk away.

First off, your auto-correct is messing with you again -- it's put "jive" where you clearly meant to type "jibe."

I look at that scene a bit differently (partially to protect my own peace of mind).  As John himself has said several times before, he's well acquainted with human anatomy.  Therefore I doubt very much that he hits or kicks Sherlock in any truly vulnerable areas (and if it looks like he is, then I'd sooner chalk it up to the director and/or actor).  He hits/kicks him hard, yeah, but in areas carefully chosen for maximal pain with minimal damage.

 

[Caya]

That sounds ... pretty sadistic to me, actually.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Yup. 

[Hikari]

1 hour ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

First off, your auto-correct is messing with you again -- it's put "jive" where you clearly meant to type "jibe."

I look at that scene a bit differently (partially to protect my own peace of mind).  As John himself has said several times before, he's well acquainted with human anatomy.  Therefore I doubt very much that he hits or kicks Sherlock in any truly vulnerable areas (and if it looks like he is, then I'd sooner chalk it up to the director and/or actor).  He hits/kicks him hard, yeah, but in areas carefully chosen for maximal pain with minimal damage.

 

 

I hate to take issue with such Mycroftian certainty, Carol but actually it was not my auto-correct messing with me again.  I myself selected 'jive' as in the meaning 'to agree with'.  According to a number of sources, 'jive' is commonly used interchangeably with the more archaic term 'jibe' in American English.  I used it because that is the way I most often hear it.  'Jibe" was also an American usage, interestingly enough, going all the way back to the Napoleonic era.  I'm a bit perplexed as to how a nautical term that means 'To shift from one side to the other when running before the wind' or, alternatively, sometimes spelled with a 'g' to mean, "To taunt, deride, mock, sneer, jeer or insult' could at the same time mean 'be in accord with'.  I puzzled over this and ended up going with 'Jive' because it felt more comfortable.  This is most likely the last time I will skirt this particular linguistic minefield, because there are other, better words to use to say what I meant than either jibe or jive.  But thanks for being the impetus for me to learn a new etymology today.   Having you around is better than a subscription to Reader's Digest.!

*********

Considering your point of view re. the scene we were discussing . . even given that our M.D. knows how to inflict pain without inflicting the severest injuries (Billy knows firsthand that Watson knows how to sprain people) . .and that he could name every bone in your body prior to breaking it . . .I am not able to read that scene as Watson exhibiting the kind of self-control which he did, say, in ASiB, where he took care to punch Sherlock in an area that would hurt least.  The Watson we see in TDD in that moment has lost any vestige of self-control and I really don't think that he's calculating his kicks to bruise only slightly but nothing super-important.  If he just wanted to make the point that he was very unhappy with Sherlock, he would have just punched him again.  What we saw was JHW absolutely losing his $*%#.  And I think that's strenuously out of character for him.  A hallmark of Watson in any incarnation, any era is, He does not lose his $*%#.  Even with two or three dead wives, at least two bullets in his person and all the crap he's endured from the man who surely must be the worst flatmate and most cavalier friend in the world . . . Watson was never violent with Sherlock Holmes, and he was only violent with other people when lives were at stake.  Even granting that our 21st century John is allowed to be a little more human and fallible than his Victorian predecessor, the massive kick-down he gave to Sherlock does not seem an action of which he would be constitutionally capable.  Sherlock was complicit in his own abuse; I think he is physically larger enough that he could have ended the kick-down . .grappled Watson to the floor and gotten up . .had he been interested in self-preservation.  Sherlock lay on the floor and took the kicking because he felt he deserved it.  Had Watson killed him at that point, I don't think he would have cared.

I don't know if anyone else felt this but as I was watching, I couldn't help thinking, "Gee, John . . .who knew that you cared *this* much about Mary?  It really seemed that they hadn't been getting along all that great ever since the whole Unmasking of Ninja Mary.  They were cohabiting together and co-parenting their child but I think the love died when John found out that it was Mary who put a bullet in his best friend.  They were a couple for less than three years . . only about a year to 15 months of that married, and that last portion was not particularly good.  I don't think that that outburst against Sherl was all about losing Mary.  That was payback for all the many years of being marginalized and betrayed by Sherlock Holmes.  In retrospect, maybe losing one's $%&@ a tiny bit every once in a while is preferable to saving it all up and then having a massive blow-out that could potentially kill one's best friend.