Why does "His Last Vow" bother some people?

[besleybean]

This is the wrong thread.

But I am genuinely baffled about the issues people have with HLV.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Carol the Dabbler
Split off from another thread

[sherlockandjohn]

This is the wrong thread.

But I am genuinely baffled about the issues people have with HLV.

 

I almost envy you. Lots of things bothered me, at first. Some of them I've come to terms with, some I've learnt to appreciate, and some I'm still not happy about.

[Caya]

This is the wrong thread.

But I am genuinely baffled about the issues people have with HLV.

 

This is indeed the wrong thread, so let me just link to Plaidder's blog post on the topic; she puts it into far better words than I ever could, anyway.

 

eta: Also, the airfield scene. But that would be one long rant.

[Janie]

This is the wrong thread.

But I am genuinely baffled about the issues people have with HLV.

 

Me too. I think HLV is brilliant. Not the best because nothing can compare to ASiP (at least for me) but it's definitely the best of series 3 (at least for me). I have some minor issues with it but as a whole I love it. 

[besleybean]

Mycroft did look genuinely surprised.

 

I seem to have answered an earlier post, but while I'm here...watch the tarmac scene again folks....John is on the verge of falling apart.

[Arcadia]

This is the wrong thread.

But I am genuinely baffled about the issues people have with HLV.

Well, some people don't like that it turned out Mary was an assassin. And some people don't like that she got away with shooting Sherlock. And some people don't like Sherlock becoming a murderer. And some people don't like John taking Mary back.

 

Then there's things like ... how on earth did CAM's security allow John to bring his gun into Appledore? How could Mary possibly know that her shot wouldn't kill Sherlock? Why would Mycroft leave a laptop full of state secrets just lying around?

 

If you want the episode to make logical sense -- it often doesn't. Which is why I've started to think that's simply the wrong way of looking at it. I'm thinking now this episode asks for a leap of faith (primarily, faith in Moftiss ) -- and that's not easy for most people!

[besleybean]

I'm just a sucker for lovely Mark and Steven!

[Arcadia]

Mycroft did look genuinely surprised.

 

I seem to have answered an earlier post, but while I'm here...watch the tarmac scene again folks....John is on the verge of falling apart.

I agree, but others see something different. And still others wanted to see something different than what was shown. People disagree on the meaning of even the most concrete of facts, so there can't help but be different responses when the evidence is so nebulous. I'm starting to love it, actually, but at first HLV really threw me for a loop. I couldn't figure out what the heck I'd just seen! For better or for worse, HLV makes you work for understanding, it doesn't just hand you answers on a silver platter.

[besleybean]

I really don't think we'll get all of the answers until next time.

[Carol the Dabbler]

If you want the episode to make logical sense -- it often doesn't. Which is why I've started to think that's simply the wrong way of looking at it. I'm thinking now this episode asks for a leap of faith (primarily, faith in Moftiss ) -- and that's not easy for most people!

Seems to me that anyone writing a show about a detective (even though it's not "a detective show") would realize that a hefty segment of their natural audience would be people attracted by the detective's logical mind and deductive skills. Therefore seems to me that they'd at least try to keep things fairly logical. While "Blind Banker" has enough plot holes to qualify as a window screen, at least it doesn't seem to have pretensions of being anything other than a slightly Victorian-flavored story. Whereas "Last Vow" is supposed to be the height of the Sherlock art -- the episode that they've entered into all the competitions.  So asking (or even hoping) for a leap-of-faith reaction seems a bit unrealistic.

 

I'm starting to love it, actually, but at first HLV really threw me for a loop. I couldn't figure out what the heck I'd just seen! For better or for worse, HLV makes you work for understanding, it doesn't just hand you answers on a silver platter.

My initial reaction was "Huh?!" Then I rewatched it a few times and started to think it might be my favorite of Series 3. Then I watched it some more, and thought about it, and read some other people's comments -- and my image of it started to fall apart.

 

I think Mary shooting Sherlock is the crux of my problem with this episode. Unfortunately, it may also be the crux of the whole episode. I'm gonna start a new thread called "How would you fix HLV?"

 

I really don't think we'll get all of the answers until next time.

Optimist! 

 

[jesskayding]

HLV was one of my favorites. I love the story... Love it. It's really complex & life doesn't always make since. I love the added drama, I love the dislike I initially had for Mary. I have apart that I really love, but will not mention to protect the delicacies of others. The only part I didn't appreciate.... Did you miss me, did you miss me, did you miss me?

 

A.) NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Die AlrEadY!

[Caya]

Oookay, since this has its own thread now (thank you, Carol!), the airfield scene. There's a lot bothering me with Vow but this ...

 

Screengrabs taken the first time we see each of the characters from the front after the TepidHandshakeGoodbye. Sorry for the quality, Mary especially, still haven't got my blu-rays back.

 

 

 

 

I can only see one set of eyes shimmering as if their owner was about to cry. Admittedly, Mary's too far away to determine with certainty, but the way the corners of her mouth are turned upwards (though I know that's hard to see in the pic) suggests otherwise. John, on the other hand ... *sigh*.

[T.o.b.y]

I can only see one set of eyes shimmering as if their owner was about to cry. Admittedly, Mary's too far away, but the way the corners of her mouth are turned upwards (though I know that's hard to see in the pic) suggests otherwise.

 

Well, John isn't really the crying sort, and even when he thought Sherlock was dead, all he did at first was sit in the chair at 221B with his hand held to his head like a gun (scared the hell out of me the first time I saw that - I went, oh no you don't, what a F***ed up ending that would be. I didn't know yet there was going to be a third series).

 

I get your point, though. As somebody else pointed out, that scene leaves too much room for interpretation to agree on. I see it very differently, and I love it. Okay, Mary is a bit abominably cheerful, but on the other hand, that's just Mary, and it doesn't mean she doesn't feel anything. Sherlock doesn't seem to mind, so I don't either.

 

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

I can only see one set of eyes shimmering as if their owner was about to cry. Admittedly, Mary's too far away to determine with certainty, but the way the corners of her mouth are turned upwards (though I know that's hard to see in the pic) suggests otherwise. John, on the other hand ... *sigh*.

Sorry for dragging the real world in, but Benedict Cumberbatch can shed tears on demand. I've never seen any hint that Martin Freeman can (and I really have no idea about Amanda Abbington). Admittedly, there are other ways of creating "tears" (e.g., drops of glycerine in the eyes, or so I hear), but unless the script and/or the director called for it, they presumably wouldn't resort to that, whereas Mr. Cumberbatch could have ad-libbed on the spot.

 

Back to the Sherlock universe:  If I were in Mary's shoes, I would very likely be trying to put a good face on the situation, under the heading of Why Make it Any Worse than it Already Is?  (Yes, I do that sort of thing.  It drives Alex nuts.  He says, "Don't you care?")  She presumably knows only that Sherlock is being sent off on an undercover assignment, in which case she knows that he'll be in danger, but he's dealt with danger plenty of times before.  She may well assume that he'll be back at the end of the six months, hopefully none the worse for wear.  So she's seeing him off and wishing him well.

 

John does seem to know that Sherlock isn't supposed to come back, but clearly even he doesn't know that the assignment amounts to a death sentence -- so he may well assume that of course Sherlock will find his way back to London somehow, eventually.  Even though he's not the demonstrative type (and therefore doesn't shed tears), he does let his sadness show on his face (and when he smiles, it looks to me like he's a lousy liar).

 

[jesskayding]

Yeah- I figured John thought Sherlock's mission would end in 6 mos. Also Sherlock looks contemplative. Leaving it open for interpretation??? I think the writers don't want to treat their audience like idiots.... We are very aware of John's & Sherlock's closeness @ this point

Don't know that they needed to drive the point home with a bucket of tears.

 

I think if the show became overly emotional, it has the danger of becoming a chick flick. This isn't Beaches, Steal Magnolias or The Sister hood of the Traveling Pants. This is dealing with a show who's main characters are a doctor, who's fought & been wounded in war & is an excellent marksman. The other is a trained fencer, boxer & high functioning sociopath who substitutes getting high by solving murder cases.

 

Hello! No need for any extra sapp. They've including enough romance, longing, hugs & kisses to appease the female audience w/o having the men upchuck.

[Arcadia]

I don't see tears in anyone's eyes! I see some sad and pensive faces, but not tears.

 

 

Seems to me that anyone writing a show about a detective (even though it's not "a detective show") would realize that a hefty segment of their natural audience would be people attracted by the detective's logical mind and deductive skills. Therefore seems to me that they'd at least try to keep things fairly logical. While "Blind Banker" has enough plot holes to qualify as a window screen, at least it doesn't seem to have pretensions of being anything other than a slightly Victorian-flavored story. Whereas "Last Vow" is supposed to be the height of the Sherlock art -- the episode that they've entered into all the competitions.  So asking (or even hoping) for a leap-of-faith reaction seems a bit unrealistic.

But Moftiss aren't "anyone", are they? Isn't that one reason we love this show, because it's so different? Whatever the expectations of the audience may or may not be, they have no obligation to meet it.

 

I don't know ... it seems to me there's only two possibilities: either Moftiss know what they're doing, and the obsfucation is deliberate, or they don't, and all the ambiguity is simply sloppy writing. When I suggested sloppy writing earlier, a number of people rejected that notion, so I assume they think there's a method to the madness. That's what I meant by a leap of faith. If I'm right (and believe me, I'm not the least bit confident that I am!) that's a pretty bold gamble, to leave your audience lost in the woods for two years and hope they find their way back to you. (Or maybe it's just hubris...)

 

Anyway, applying only logic to HLV wasn't working for me, so I cast around for another way of looking at it. Maybe all the "mistakes" aren't mistakes, maybe everything is in there for a reason; it just might not be a logical reason. Looked at that way, the cursed thing holds together pretty well (if I could just get that niggling little Vulcan part of the brain to shut up...)

[Carol the Dabbler]

*sigh*  Maybe that's my problem, my pesky Vulcan side.  I guess I'd rather go ahead and try to make sense of it -- and I think I've done fairly well, considering the challenges.

 

But I see now what you mean by "leap of faith" -- not just swallow whatever Moftiss dish out (which I fear isn't my style), but rather maintain hope that things will make more sense in our next lifetime Series 4.  I'm also holding out a bit of that hope, and I don't see it as inconsistent with trying to make sense of it myself in the meantime.

 

[Caya]

Yeah- I figured John thought Sherlock's mission would end in 6 mos.

 

Ariane to the rescue, once more:

 

 

John nods to Sherlock in greeting, and Sherlock turns to his brother.)

SHERLOCK: Since this is likely to be the last conversation I’ll have with John Watson ...

(John sighs painfully.)

SHERLOCK: ... would you mind if we took a moment?

(Mycroft looks a little startled, but then glances over to the security man and jerks his head towards the side of the plane. The security man, Mycroft and Mary walk along the side of the jet towards the wing and Sherlock turns to John, who smiles at him and nods.)

 

Sherlock explicitly states that this is likely the last time they'll ever talk, and John is there to hear it. So much for a simple 6-month mission. John, btw, knows that Sherlock is a murderer, he was standing right next to him after all, and that this is supposed to be his penance. There's no way he can't be aware that this is likely a forever goodbye.

 

We are very aware of John's & Sherlock's closeness @ this point

 

Nice for you that you are. I, however, am aware that, as per CAM's assessment, John is Sherlock's pressure point while Sherlock is not John's pressure point.

 

Hello! No need for any extra sapp. They've including enough romance, longing, hugs & kisses to appease the female audience w/o having the men upchuck.

 

In a way, we agree. That's why I think the way they handled Mary has been such a mistake. The show should be about the men and their friendship front and center.

 

But then they need to stop bringing these topics into play if they cannot handle them appropriately (and I very much think they did not). No extra sap? Then freaking stop John thinking he's lost Sherlock forever every damn season. But if you have to, do it right. They showed they could at Sherlock's grave. This was just ... sad, but in the entirely wrong way, imho.

[Arcadia]

*sigh*  Maybe that's my problem, my pesky Vulcan side.  I guess I'd rather go ahead and try to make sense of it -- and I think I've done fairly well, considering the challenges.

 

But I see now what you mean by "leap of faith" -- not just swallow whatever Moftiss dish out (which I fear isn't my style), but rather maintain hope that things will make more sense in our next lifetime Series 4.  I'm also holding out a bit of that hope, and I don't see it as inconsistent with trying to make sense of it myself in the meantime.

Exactly! Which is why I keep prowling around this forum, looking for illumination....

[Arcadia]

Sherlock explicitly states that this is likely the last time they'll ever talk, and John is there to hear it. So much for a simple 6-month mission. John, btw, knows that Sherlock is a murderer, he was standing right next to him after all, and that this is supposed to be his penance. There's no way he can't be aware that this is likely a forever goodbye.

Well, the presumption (there's that word again) is that John and Mary knew he was being sent into exile, ergo, never seen again. To which the logical mind replies: "They don't have phones in Sherlock World? John can't go wherever Sherlock is?" Which is why I keep jumping up and down on my logical mind and telling it to shut up.

 

 

We are very aware of John's & Sherlock's closeness @ this point

 

Nice for you that you are. I, however, am aware that, as per CAM's assessment, John is Sherlock's pressure point while Sherlock is not John's pressure point.

 

Erm, I don't think one negates the other. Just because John is close to one person doesn't mean he can't be close to other people as well. John and Sherlock touch each other, laugh together, trust each other, get drunk together, I don't know how you can miss that they are close. Closer than John and Major Sholto, who is supposed to be another great love of John's life.

 

If you mean that John doesn't place Sherlock first above all others, that may be true, and if you don't want John to be with Mary, I see how that could chafe. But if you accept that he IS with Mary, that's an appropriate attitude from a husband. Although I think it would break John if he had to choose between them.

[Caya]

 

If you mean that John doesn't place Sherlock first above all others, that may be true, and if you don't want John to be with Mary, I see how that could chafe. But if you accept that he IS with Mary, that's an appropriate attitude from a husband. Although I think it would break John if he had to choose between them.

 

Just so. And of course it is an appropriate attitude from a husband. Which is why I don't think John should've gotten married in the first place.

 

There are tons of rom-coms out there, but there was only one Sherlock-and-John friendship (to the best of my knowledge, but I'm sure open for suggestions). I'm not interested in John's wonderful marriage to his sweet little Sherlock-killer wife. What I want to see is Sherlock and John and you and me against the world. Since I'm unlikely to, I'll console myself with series 1&2.

[jesskayding]

Yeah.. I do feel they married him off too soon. I have to admit though, that SO3 was one of my favorite episodes. Sherlock as best man priceless. I guess we'll have to see what they get on to in season 4.

 

I also feel like I would have wanted to enjoy a few more episodes with John & Sherlock together in 221B. Maybe they should have held off on TRF, per it did make since that John would get on with his life and that was the perfect time in my opinion to meet the woman he would marry. So yeah maybe we needed more of season 1 for season 2. And then season 2 would be season 3 & then by season 4 we could be okay with the introduction of Mary. Make them have a long engagement. They do it the old fashioned way. They don't live together yet, so John would stay in 221b until season 5 or 6. Yeah that would have been easier to take.

 

Now @ this point I except what has happened. Im confident that the two will remain a duo & maybe Mary won't really be super present during their adventures.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Ariane to the rescue, once more:

 

John nods to Sherlock in greeting, and Sherlock turns to his brother.)

SHERLOCK: Since this is likely to be the last conversation I’ll have with John Watson ...

(John sighs painfully.)

SHERLOCK: ... would you mind if we took a moment?

(Mycroft looks a little startled, but then glances over to the security man and jerks his head towards the side of the plane. The security man, Mycroft and Mary walk along the side of the jet towards the wing and Sherlock turns to John, who smiles at him and nods.)

 

Sherlock explicitly states that this is likely the last time they'll ever talk, and John is there to hear it. So much for a simple 6-month mission. John, btw, knows that Sherlock is a murderer, he was standing right next to him after all, and that this is supposed to be his penance. There's no way he can't be aware that this is likely a forever goodbye.

I take that to be merely the official version, since Sherlock is addressing Mycroft at that point, not John. And when John asks what Sherlock will do after the six-month assignment, Sherlock says "Who knows?" So John is apparently unaware of the "death sentence" aspect, and even though his faith in Sherlock's omnipotence has been pretty thoroughly shaken, surely he's still clinging to the assumption (or at least the hope) that Sherlock knows what he's doing.

 

If the plane had not turned around, do you think that Sherlock would really have been dead in six months? It's not like he was being put in front of a firing squad, after all. He'd have had a fighting chance to survive (and hopefully he learned some painful-but-valuable lessons in Serbia). If he did survive, he'd surely return to London eventually (under cover if necessary). If I can maintain that hope (even knowing about the "death sentence") then surely John "Sherlock always has a plan" Watson would do likewise. I doubt that he could bear to do otherwise.

 

Then freaking stop John thinking he's lost Sherlock forever every damn season. But if you have to, do it right. They showed they could at Sherlock's grave. This was just ... sad, but in the entirely wrong way, imho.

I fully agree that this was clumsy. I guess that's why we're all seeing a different episode, much more so than with any prior ones.

 

Yes, they absolutely did it right in "Reichenbach," so why rehash it here? But then again, why have John kidnapped in every-other episode? Moftiss just seem to operate that way -- hey, it worked great the first five times, so let's do it again!  If you're gonna watch a Peter Jackson movie, ya gotta put up with a few Orcs.

 

And of course it is an appropriate attitude from a husband. Which is why I don't think John should've gotten married in the first place.

John may have agreed with that sentiment for a while, but he seems to have made his peace with the situation. Not saying that you have to agree with him, just that it seems a little unrealistic (and against canon as well) to say that he should never-ever marry.

 

Seems to me that most of us are primarily upset over just this one episode, which unfortunately is the one we'll be left with for the next couple of years.  I would suggest that we try seeing it as merely one part of the nine-episode whole, but I find that hard to do myself -- "Last Vow" takes things in such a different direction.  Hopefully, further developments and revelations in Series 4 will help us to make some sense of it all.  Please!

 

[jesskayding]

I don't get it. What different direction? Seems a lot the same to me. Drama, twists, darkness & humor. Each episode seemed to push the envelope more & more.

 

Not only that it brings the entire series full circle pretty much... Hence all the similarities with HLV & SIP.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I agree that there are some thematic similarities with "Study in Pink," but I don't see the episodes as being similar overall.  For one thing, "Last Vow" is far, far darker than anything previous.  Also, I don't recall ever before being asked to swallow any "surprises" of that magnitude.  Maybe "different direction" isn't quite the right term, but to me "Last Vow" definitely seems different.

 

I also agree that the first two episodes of this series pushed the envelope, but I didn't get the feeling that I'd lost my footing till "Last Vow."