Molly Hooper

[bedelia1984]

Is Irene really a lesbian or not? How can we ever know with Moftiss.

[gerry]

I had to look up OTP, must be getting old! I do not understand Moffat's weird fascination with Irene though.

[bedelia1984]

I'm hoping that in the next few years Moffat learns to see the Adler storyline as something that is even more romantic because it was fleeting.

[Arcadia]

I suspect they've forgotten she claims to be gay.

 

Apparently some men are simply fascinated by domin8trixes. I'm neither a man nor fascinated, so I can't begin to fathom it. But I've seen the plot over and over again on TV, particularly with extra smart men.

 

I wonder if that's the converse of women who like to read rape fantasies. I never got that either, but there's sure a lot of it out there.

 

Good god, how did I end up on this subject in the Molly thread?

[gerry]

It's funny you say that because I just thought of CSI. They did do a similar character as Irene on CSI with Grissom and Lady Heather. Grissom ended up with Sara but they did explore his friendship with Lady Heather as well through like maybe 4 episodes over the course of the years Grissom was on the show. That was another example of a very intelligent, introverted character and a dominatrix character.

[bedelia1984]

I thought of Grissom too! On House, they did a sequence where his love interest was a pole dancer in one of his fantasies, even though in real life she was a hospital administrator! To me the domin8trix in Sherlock is like a male's mid-life crisis version. I just don't believe anybody, man or woman, wanting to going out with someone, male or female, who keeps going on about all their ex clients and knowing 'what he likes'. Shouldn't they have some kind of confidentiality clause anyway? Any decent domin8trix wouldn't kiss and tell to that extent.

[Arcadia]

What makes you think Irene is decent? :d

 

Grissom is exactly one of the ones I was thinking of, plus there was that recent Sherlock-clone with Ioan Gruffud; and they also used the idea in Hill Street Blues (I think I'm thinking of the right show.) Plus a soap opera I used to watch, and at least two or three other series I've long since forgotten. It's been around a while.

[bedelia1984]

What makes you think Irene is decent? :D

 

Grissom is exactly one of the ones I was thinking of, plus there was that recent Sherlock-clone with Ioan Gruffud; and they also used the idea in Hill Street Blues (I think I'm thinking of the right show.) Plus a soap opera I used to watch, and at least two or three other series I've long since forgotten. It's been around a while.

 

I meant decent in the sense of being professional, of course she's not decent in the other sense!   :D

 

So the genius and the domin8trix is a time-honoured tradition, who knew? I just looked it up and there is a trope called Brains and Bondage, apparently.

 

I was just thinking, that most of these shows must be written by men who are at least somewhat intelligent, so it has to be coming from somewhere. Not sure it explains the popularity of 50 shades of grey though... evidently there are a lot of women who also like the idea.

 

I feel bad we aren't talking more about Molly.

 

Anybody have thought on the way that the ending phone scene in Scandal has echoes of Molly on the phone in TFP? In both scenes a telephone is a tool to show a woman's affection for Sherlock, talking about whether words were really meant or not, games, etc.

[Boton]

I thought the same thing ... I've always just wanted the best for Molly, but until this season, I never thought Sherlock would be that for her. Now I believe he could be; he's changed that much.

 

But I don't think he ever will be. :(

 

I'm still on the "wanting better for Molly" side of things.  Even though I believe Sherlock is now a good man and could be in a (sexual/romantic) relationship, I don't think his personality fundamentally changed.  I think Molly wants all the "boyfriend stuff," like probably flowers and chatting over dinner and one day having kids; I don't see Sherlock in that way.  I told someone on Ao3 that I hope they go out for about three dates, realize this is a horrible idea, and then Molly marries Greg.   :P

 

What I don't understand is if they have no intention of doing Molly/Sherlock in any form romantically because of canon, why not just say that outright like they did about John/Sherlock romance where canon was cited as a reason for the lack of possibility? I guess I don't understand why that feel they need ambiguity.

 

One thing that occurs to me is that the backlash from the people who wanted John/Sherlock is so much more over the top than from those who want Sherlock/Molly.  They can more easily leave the door open to a Sherlolly ship than they can to Johnlock, especially since the stakes on the Johnlock side seem to be so high.  I have been trying not to spend a lot of time online looking at the shipping, but it seems that the Johnlock fans specifically wanted a kiss or a physical demonstration at the end of TFP, or they were upset.  The Sherlolly shippers seem to have wanted the possibility left open, so that was easier for Moftiss to do without comment.

 

 

I wonder if the kudos they got for Scandal is partly encouraging them to consider the romance angle more than they might otherwise.

Nah, I just think Moffat thinks Irene is Sherlock's OTP.

 

 

Well, I think Adlock is Conan Doyle's OTP too.....

 

I suspect they've forgotten she claims to be gay.

 

Apparently some men are simply fascinated by domin8trixes. I'm neither a man nor fascinated, so I can't begin to fathom it. But I've seen the plot over and over again on TV, particularly with extra smart men.

 

I wonder if that's the converse of women who like to read rape fantasies. I never got that either, but there's sure a lot of it out there.

 

Good god, how did I end up on this subject in the Molly thread?

 

For the first part, there are a lot of people who believe John is bisexual in spite of him screaming his heterosexuality to the rooftops.  I assume the same logic applies to making a gay Irene interested in Sherlock.  (Hey, *everyone* is interested in sex with Sherlock!)

 

As for the other fantasies you mention, it seems pretty natural to me.  Smart people with lots of responsibility in their lives and a full understanding of the consequences of their own actions sometimes need to put that burden down and surrender control to someone else.  A safe place to do that is in the realm of fantasy.  (I've always thought that you can't actually have a "rape fantasy," because by your very act of engaging with the fantasy, you are giving consent.)

[bedelia1984]

 

....

 

For the first part, there are a lot of people who believe John is bisexual in spite of him screaming his heterosexuality to the rooftops.  I assume the same logic applies to making a gay Irene interested in Sherlock.  (Hey, *everyone* is interested in sex with Sherlock!)

 

As for the other fantasies you mention, it seems pretty natural to me.  Smart people with lots of responsibility in their lives and a full understanding of the consequences of their own actions sometimes need to put that burden down and surrender control to someone else.  A safe place to do that is in the realm of fantasy.  (I've always thought that you can't actually have a "rape fantasy," because by your very act of engaging with the fantasy, you are giving consent.)

 

 

I could believe quite easily that John was gay. He seems to have self-sabotaged every relationship he has ever had with a woman. I know there are a lot of reasons why a man might do this, but one could be that actually a relationship with a woman is not what he wants, deep down.

 

With Irene, I don't understand why she would lie? I thought the closest she had to a true relationship was probably that woman living with her? If anything, even if she were gay, wouldn't she claim to be at least bisexual, so as to still be a 'possibility' for the men in her 'game'. Then again, I guess pretending to be a lesbian would play in to a lot of male fantasies. Would she have thought Sherlock would like that?

 

 

(Hey, *everyone* is interested in sex with Sherlock!)

 

 

You said it! :D Another thing about Irene, is that she seemed to be a bit of a collector of powerful men and women, so I can see Sherlock appealing to her. And he's such an interesting combination of super intelligence and lack of 'real-world' experience, a pretty unique challenge. But has her 'turned' her, or is this about the conquest? And reading between the lines, it is kind of implied in TFP that they did sleep together, right?

[Redbeard]

 

...so I can see Sherlock appealing to her. And he's such an interesting combination of super intelligence and lack of 'real-world' experience, a pretty unique challenge. 

 

Plus, he's hot.  lol

 

But I HATE the thought of Sherlock having any kind of real relationship with Irene.  Just yuck.  Him "trying" the boyfriend thing with Molly would be adorable, though I don't see it ultimately working out (that would be so against character for Sherlock Holmes!) but there could be potential for some really fun and intriguing stories there in the meantime.  I think they would have to end it eventually, end it in a good place though, with her finding happily-ever-after with someone else, but she could always take consolation in the fact that Sherlock tried.  And, it would be great if John finds out Sherlock is seeing someone, thinking all along it is Irene, and then being shocked to find out it is actually...gasp...Molly.   :lol: (I am onboard with Molly and Lestrade being end-game though...that'd be sweet for both of them)

[gerry]

I thought of Grissom too! On House, they did a sequence where his love interest was a pole dancer in one of his fantasies, even though in real life she was a hospital administrator! To me the domin8trix in Sherlock is like a male's mid-life crisis version. I just don't believe anybody, man or woman, wanting to going out with someone, male or female, who keeps going on about all their ex clients and knowing 'what he likes'. Shouldn't they have some kind of confidentiality clause anyway? Any decent domin8trix wouldn't kiss and tell to that extent.

I agree. CSI did it more subtlely, more nuanced. There was more mutual respect between them than anything SIB did. SIB it was much more tawdry, more a shock factor than anything and to make Irene gay on top of it was beyond stupid.

[gerry]

 

 

Anybody have thought on the way that the ending phone scene in Scandal has echoes of Molly on the phone in TFP? In both scenes a telephone is a tool to show a woman's affection for Sherlock, talking about whether words were really meant or not, games, etc.

A signfiicant difference was that Irene and Sherlock both knew what was going on before and after. Molly was in the dark about the majority of it.

[gerry]

And reading between the lines, it is kind of implied in TFP that they did sleep together, right?

I've wondered the same thing. I was mortified that Eurus' question about that lead to the rape of a prison guard. John asked him about the same thing the week before. In both cases Sherlock had zero reaction so I had no idea how to read what the implication was.

[Arcadia]

And reading between the lines, it is kind of implied in TFP that they did sleep together, right?

 

Errr ... whaaa?

[Surelock]

 

And reading between the lines, it is kind of implied in TFP that they did sleep together, right?

 

Errr ... whaaa?

 

 

I think bedelia1984 is referencing how Euros asked Sherlock is he had sex after Sherlock started playing Irene's theme with his violin. 

 

Apparently smarter-than-Newton Euros can tell if someone has had sex by hearing the kind of music they play. That's one way of interpreting that scene.

[Surelock]

Also I always saw Irene as someone who always believed she was lesbian until she met Sherlock. After she met Sherlock, she realised that she was actually bisexual rather than just a lesbian.

 

Also knowing Moffat, I wouldn't be surprised if he brought Irene back in a later season and had her compete with Molly for Sherlock's affections. Maybe Molly and Irene would even get into a fight over Sherlock? That sounds so Moffat. 

[gerry]

Also I always saw Irene as someone who always believed she was lesbian until she met Sherlock. After she met Sherlock, she realised that she was actually bisexual rather than just a lesbian.

 

Also knowing Moffat, I wouldn't be surprised if he brought Irene back in a later season and had her compete with Molly for Sherlock's affections. Maybe Molly and Irene would even get into a fight over Sherlock? That sounds so Moffat.

I really hope not.

[Arcadia]

Am I the only one who's just a wee bit offended by the idea that Sherlock is just so wonderful that Irene will stop being gay for him?

 

 

[Surelock]

Am I the only one who's just a wee bit offended by the idea that Sherlock is just so wonderful that Irene will stop being gay for him?

 

What's so offensive about that?

 

There are people like that in real life. People who think they're gay until they meet the special someone of the opposite gender. Then they realise that they're actually bisexual.

 

The same case holds true for straight people. 

[bedelia1984]

 

Anybody have thought on the way that the ending phone scene in Scandal has echoes of Molly on the phone in TFP? In both scenes a telephone is a tool to show a woman's affection for Sherlock, talking about whether words were really meant or not, games, etc.

A signfiicant difference was that Irene and Sherlock both knew what was going on before and after. Molly was in the dark about the majority of it.

 

 

Yes, and also that Sherlock and Irene are both shown as enjoying the 'game' side at the beginning, whereas for Molly that is a more upsetting part of the situation. I think that highlights one of the main differences between her and Irene as characters.

 

 

And reading between the lines, it is kind of implied in TFP that they did sleep together, right?

I've wondered the same thing. I was mortified that Eurus' question about that lead to the rape of a prison guard. John asked him about the same thing the week before. In both cases Sherlock had zero reaction so I had no idea how to read what the implication was.

 

 

I totally believed they did!

 

 

 

And reading between the lines, it is kind of implied in TFP that they did sleep together, right?

 

Errr ... whaaa?

 

 

I think bedelia1984 is referencing how Euros asked Sherlock is he had sex after Sherlock started playing Irene's theme with his violin. 

 

Apparently smarter-than-Newton Euros can tell if someone has had sex by hearing the kind of music they play. That's one way of interpreting that scene.

 

 

Yep, sex music. It is how they converse after all, though it seems an odd thing to talk to your sister about. You know, kind of ungentlemanly. And also, kinda show off-y, like 'look what a good time all us free people have been having whilst you've been locked in here!' :P

 

 

Am I the only one who's just a wee bit offended by the idea that Sherlock is just so wonderful that Irene will stop being gay for him?

 

What's so offensive about that?

 

There are people like that in real life. People who think they're gay until they meet the special someone of the opposite gender. Then they realise that they're actually bisexual.

 

The same case holds true for straight people. 

 

 

Part of me is offended and then part of me thinks that if I was Irene I would feel the same!

 

 

Also I always saw Irene as someone who always believed she was lesbian until she met Sherlock. After she met Sherlock, she realised that she was actually bisexual rather than just a lesbian.

 

Also knowing Moffat, I wouldn't be surprised if he brought Irene back in a later season and had her compete with Molly for Sherlock's affections. Maybe Molly and Irene would even get into a fight over Sherlock? That sounds so Moffat.  

 

Ugh, wouldn't this be the worst ever? I don't think either woman would sink to that level though, would they? I'd really love a scene where they talk about him over coffee. That would be super-amazing.

[Surelock]

 

Ugh, wouldn't this be the worst ever? I don't think either woman would sink to that level though, would they? I'd really love a scene where they talk about him over coffee. That would be super-amazing.

 

 

The thing is that both Molly and Irene have slapped Sherlock so I can see them get into a slapping contest over him.

 

Or maybe the two of them will slap Sherlock together? I wouldn't mind seeing that. It sounds like something the two of them can agree on.

[gerry]

Didn't Sherlock compose that song when he thought Irene was dead? It's a meloncholy theme so why would sex be the primary association with it if you were hearing it for the first time? That is why the Eurus leap seemed odd to me. It made more sense for John to make the leap because of the moaning noise of text message alert and the previous conversations that John has had with Irene.

 

I don't know about offended but why is it even necessary? What's the purpose of labeling her sexuality, just so that they can feed Sherlock's ego, he's just so special that he can affect someone's sexuatity? It's little over the top.

 

On Elementary Moriarty and Irene are one character played by a fantastic English actress. Joan and Moriarty had a dinner scene alone together discussing Sherlock. It was one of my favorite scenes of that show becuase it was all about Moriarty being jealous/trying to understand Joan and Sherlock's relationship even with the knowledge that Joan/Sherlock's relationship is purely platonic.

[Boton]

 

 

With Irene, I don't understand why she would lie? I thought the closest she had to a true relationship was probably that woman living with her? If anything, even if she were gay, wouldn't she claim to be at least bisexual, so as to still be a 'possibility' for the men in her 'game'. Then again, I guess pretending to be a lesbian would play in to a lot of male fantasies. Would she have thought Sherlock would like that?

 

 

 

My head canon alone, but I always thought that Irene was probably bisexual, but that she had long ago divided things in her mind so that women = fun and men = work.  I know that the opening scene of SiB involved her having a "work" interaction with "that posh thing" who was female, but I thought that maybe she found whatever men typically liked from her in her work life rather distasteful, so she determined that she wasn't that into men.

 

 

I think bedelia1984 is referencing how Euros asked Sherlock is he had sex after Sherlock started playing Irene's theme with his violin. 

Apparently smarter-than-Newton Euros can tell if someone has had sex by hearing the kind of music they play. That's one way of interpreting that scene.

 

 

I absolutely interpreted it that way.  I think that Eurus could hear a soulfulness in Sherlock's playing that indicated to her that he had an emotional event in his life. They had already discussed whether playing a piece technically correctly was the same thing as playing it well; perhaps she heard Sherlock infuse the song with emotion, especially since he composed it and would naturally infuse it with all the emotion he has when thinking about Irene.  In some ways, SiB may be the first chink in the armor that eventually leads to Sherlock embracing emotion.

 

Am I the only one who's just a wee bit offended by the idea that Sherlock is just so wonderful that Irene will stop being gay for him?

 

No, you're not.  It is something to be very careful with. On the other hand, I wonder if those who are more in the middle of the Kinsey scale might have a little fluidity there, and someone like Irene could say that if Sherlock is on the table (metaphorically, guys!), then he is who she is interested in.

 

Now, Molly.  Molly.  Wasn't this thread supposed to be about Molly?  Um, yeah.  So, I do hope that Sherlock slept with Irene a couple of times at least before he had anything to do with Molly; no one really wants to suffer through a man who is an absolute beginner.   :P

[Arcadia]

Didn't Sherlock compose that song when he thought Irene was dead? It's a meloncholy theme so why would sex be the primary association with it if you were hearing it for the first time? That is why the Eurus leap seemed odd to me. It made more sense for John to make the leap because of the moaning noise of text message alert and the previous conversations that John has had with Irene.

 

I don't know about offended but why is it even necessary? What's the purpose of labeling her sexuality, just so that they can feed Sherlock's ego, he's just so special that he can affect someone's sexuatity? It's little over the top.

 

Exactly, and exactly.