Molly Hooper

[Redbeard]

 

I don't think Molly would mind Sherlock not having a lot or any experience. She would be infinitely patient with him.

 

 

Ha ha, that's true.  Although what he lacks in experience he would probably make up for in confidence and swag.  Not to mention he could easily deduce what is working and what isn't lol.  ;)

[bedelia1984]

 

 

Moving in a slightly lateral direction here, but if Sherlock ever was with Molly, in that way, what would he make of her past relationship with Moriarty?

 

Did people ever reach a consensus as to whether Molly and Moriarty slept together?

 

I always wonder how that Molly/ Moriarty break-up went. I just can't picture the wording, or the scenario, or how Moriarty would react. His character seemed like quite a touchy-feely guy, so I would picture him being sort of emotional, I suppose.

[Surelock]

I thought Molly and Moriarty only met for a few days or so. I doubt they became intimate. Also Molly didn't really like Moriarty. She was just using him to try and make Sherlock jealous. That's why I doubt she had sex with Moriarty. I'm not sure if Sherlock noticed that Molly was trying to make him jealous but I guess John could have told him later on.

 

As for what Sherlock would say about her relationship with Moriarty, I imagine it would be something like:

 

'Taking advantage of someone's feelings in order to obtain something that you want. I've done that before as well (referring to Janine).'

 

Which reminds me what did Molly think of when she found out about Sherlock's relationship with Janine? Maybe that's why she broke up with Tom?

[bedelia1984]

She seemed kind of jealous of Janine in TSOT, and that was before she was dating Sherlock, even? I would say the dating must have been really hard for her to deal with. Especially when he had told her that he was a sociopath, basically given her the impression that he would never have a relationship with anyone, not long before. Plus, there were the newspaper articles, which made the relationship with Janine out to be way more than it was. 

 

It seems like the writers changed the reason Tom and Molly broke up mid season, and never told us what it was anyway. I read the shooting script for HLV and in it, it sounds like Tom asked Molly for space. I think they removed the line from the final edit? The way the season reads, it seems more like Molly was comparing him unfavourably to Sherlock in TSOT and then she broke up with him? But they don't specify.

 

I thought Molly was quite taken with Jim initially, until Sherlock pointed out how he was gay. I think Jim posted on her blog too- you know the side blog that the show used to have for Molly? Something about them watching Glee together at her place. I could have even seen them being friends after the break up, if not for the whole criminal psychopath thing.

[Redbeard]

The question of whether Molly ever slept with Moriarty is interesting because she might have...and Irene might have too (they did work together and of course it wouldn't be "love", she would do it as a job and he would do it, presumably, to alleviate boredom for a short time, but I could see some crackling chemistry there)...and even Eurus might have...we don't really know for sure.  So that is three women that mean a lot to Sherlock who could have been with Moriarty, two of which Sherlock MAY want for himself, and the other one being his sister.  Interesting dynamic, I wonder how Sherlock would react if it were all true lol.  

[Surelock]

She seemed kind of jealous of Janine in TSOT, and that was before she was dating Sherlock, even? I would say the dating must have been really hard for her to deal with. Especially when he had told her that he was a sociopath, basically given her the impression that he would never have a relationship with anyone, not long before. Plus, there were the newspaper articles, which made the relationship with Janine out to be way more than it was. 

 

It seems like the writers changed the reason Tom and Molly broke up mid season, and never told us what it was anyway. I read the shooting script for HLV and in it, it sounds like Tom asked Molly for space. I think they removed the line from the final edit? The way the season reads, it seems more like Molly was comparing him unfavourably to Sherlock in TSOT and then she broke up with him? But they don't specify.

 

I thought Molly was quite taken with Jim initially, until Sherlock pointed out how he was gay. I think Jim posted on her blog too- you know the side blog that the show used to have for Molly? Something about them watching Glee together at her place. I could have even seen them being friends after the break up, if not for the whole criminal psychopath thing.

 

I had a reply written up to this post of yours a few hours earlier but this forum is so random sometimes. Usually it auto saves what you're typing every few minutes but sometimes it just refuses and when you click 'Add Reply' it takes you to a 'Forbidden Error' page. Then when you click 'Back' you're taken to an empty Reply box and have to type up the post again. It's so annoying.

 

Anyway this is my second attempt at replying to your post:

 

 

Here's the original script and I think Molly's words about Tom needing 'space' that you're referring to are on Page 20:

http://www.emmys.com/sites/default/files/Downloads/Sherlock_Ep3_Script.pdf

 

 

MOLLY

How dare you throw away the beautiful gifts you were born with, and how dare you betray the love of your friends. Say you’re sorry.

 

 

SHERLOCK

... I’m sorry your engagement is over. (Stroking his slapped face) Though I’m fairly grateful for the lack of a ring.

 

 

MOLLY

Stop it, just stop it.

 

 

JOHN

Jesus, Sherlock.

 

 

MOLLY

And we’re just having a break! It was a mutual agreement that he needed more space.

 

 

JOHN (To Sherlock)

If you were anywhere near this kind of thing again, you could’ve phoned, you could’ve talked to me -

 

 

 

I've bolded the lines that got cut according to Ariane DeVere's transcript of the actual episode. Anyway I don't think the deletion of these lines necessarily means that Moffatiss changed the reason for Molly and Tom breaking up. 

 

Most scenes in films have a number of takes and only the one with the best acting make it into the final cut. However sometimes actors can forget their lines or speak their lines before another actor is finished. In such cases, the directors might reshoot the scene but only if the lines are important. If the lines aren't important but if the acting and everything else are spot on then the directors still might use these scenes in the final cut even if they actually aren't verbatim from the script.

 

I think it's possible that's what may have happened here. These two lines that got cut aren't really important to this scene in this episode. Maybe Brealey forgot her line or Freeman spoke too soon. However their acting was spot on in the rest of the scene so perhaps the director decided to use it anyway.

 

Anyway I think it's important to understand the context behind how Molly uses the word 'space'. She uses it another time in the episode.

 

When Sherlock mysteriously leaves the hospital to reveal Mary's secrets to John, Mycroft tries looking for Sherlock. He goes around asking all of Sherlock's friends if they know where Sherlock goes to hide. When he asks Molly, she says:

 

 

MOLLY: Just the spare bedroom. ... (Awkwardly) Well ... my bedroom. We agreed he needs the space.

 

 

So once again Molly uses the word 'space'. It looks like she uses it to refer to a place of residence. We can use that to understand what she was referring to when she mentioned 'space' in her deleted line.

 

Anyway now let's take another look at Molly's deleted line:

 

 

MOLLY 

And we’re just having a break! It was a mutual agreement that he needed more space.

 

 

I think what Molly was trying to say is that Tom wanted to live alone. He needed more space to be independent or whatever. That's what Molly is referring to when she says 'more space' in her deleted line. 

 

However I think that's just an excuse. I think what really happened was that Tom broke up with her. It wasn't Molly breaking up with Tom. It was the other way around. However I think Tom did it in a subtle way.

 

I think Tom told Molly that he wanted his own place to live for a while so he was going to move into his own flat. He reassured Molly that he still loved her. He was just having a bit of a break to think things through about their future. He would return to her soon.

 

However all of that was a lie. Tom wanted to break up with Molly. I'm not sure why but I guess he noticed that Molly was infatuated with Sherlock and was just using him to fill in a void in her heart. So he moved out of her flat. Then he probably blocked her on his phone and stopped seeing her. 

 

Molly eventually realised that Tom had lied to her and wanted nothing more to do with her so she got rid of his engagement ring. However when Sherlock pointed that out, it irked her. It reminded her of how Sherlock had told her that Jim was gay. So Molly decided to use the 'Tom just wants a break' excuse. She doesn't believe in it anymore but she doesn't want to admit that once again Sherlock was right about her love life not working out.

 

 

 

As for Jim, I still think Molly was just using him. However I do think she appreciated the belief of Jim actually loving her. I've always seen Molly as some lonely lady who's looking for love in her life to fill a void in her heart. When Sherlock pointed out that Jim didn't really love her, I think it hurt her more than she expected it to. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

I agree that when someone says a breakup was a mutual decision, it means they were the one who got dumped. It's just human nature to save face a bit.

 

However, I think it's possible (even probable) that omitting those lines was a conscious decision. They may have been cut just before the scene was filmed or they may have been filmed and then edited out -- either because they changed their mind or because the episode was running too long. We may never know for sure why. And therefore those lines cannot be considered "Sherlock canon," just a bit of an alternative timeline.

 

Not denying that it's interesting, merely that we don't know whether the lines are "true" or not.

[bedelia1984]

The question of whether Molly ever slept with Moriarty is interesting because she might have...and Irene might have too (they did work together and of course it wouldn't be "love", she would do it as a job and he would do it, presumably, to alleviate boredom for a short time, but I could see some crackling chemistry there)...and even Eurus might have...we don't really know for sure.  So that is three women that mean a lot to Sherlock who could have been with Moriarty, two of which Sherlock MAY want for himself, and the other one being his sister.  Interesting dynamic, I wonder how Sherlock would react if it were all true lol.  

 

There is something sort of incestuous about that aspect, isn't there?

 

 

.....

 

I think Tom told Molly that he wanted his own place to live for a while so he was going to move into his own flat. He reassured Molly that he still loved her. He was just having a bit of a break to think things through about their future. He would return to her soon.

 

However all of that was a lie. Tom wanted to break up with Molly. I'm not sure why but I guess he noticed that Molly was infatuated with Sherlock and was just using him to fill in a void in her heart. So he moved out of her flat. Then he probably blocked her on his phone and stopped seeing her. 

 

Molly eventually realised that Tom had lied to her and wanted nothing more to do with her so she got rid of his engagement ring. However when Sherlock pointed that out, it irked her. It reminded her of how Sherlock had told her that Jim was gay. So Molly decided to use the 'Tom just wants a break' excuse. She doesn't believe in it anymore but she doesn't want to admit that once again Sherlock was right about her love life not working out.

 

As for Jim, I still think Molly was just using him. However I do think she appreciated the belief of Jim actually loving her. I've always seen Molly as some lonely lady who's looking for love in her life to fill a void in her heart. When Sherlock pointed out that Jim didn't really love her, I think it hurt her more than she expected it to. 

 

 

That error you mentioned happens to me sometimes too.

 

Thanks for the exact lines. I was glad they cut it, actually, because to me it read as if Molly is constantly crowding men- because she says Sherlock borrows her bedroom when he 'needs space' and then says the same thing about Tom- only the reverse, he's out of her life because he needs it. 

 

But actually, your idea that Tom realised she wasn't over Sherlock seems spot on. I always thought it was rude and mean of Molly to stab him with that fork or whatever it was at the wedding- even if she did say something really dim. I get it was mostly for comic effect, but if she was that embarrassed by him, she shouldn't have been dating him from the beginning. 

 

As for Jim, I still think Molly was just using him. However I do think she appreciated the belief of Jim actually loving her. I've always seen Molly as some lonely lady who's looking for love in her life to fill a void in her heart. When Sherlock pointed out that Jim didn't really love her, I think it hurt her more than she expected it to.

 

         

 

I saw it more as him using her, though I do agree she would have liked Sherlock to be jealous, certainly. I can imagine Jim being quite a fun date. I don't think Molly would seek out someone like him, but I could imagine her being really flattered by his interest and enjoying his company. I don't believe that she was ever in love with him, or would have expected him to love her- but it still wouldn't be nice to be told he was gay.

 

 

...

However, I think it's possible (even probable) that omitting those lines was a conscious decision. They may have been cut just before the scene was filmed or they may have been filmed and then edited out -- either because they changed their mind or because the episode was running too long. We may never know for sure why. And therefore those lines cannot be considered "Sherlock canon," just a bit of an alternative timeline.

 

Not denying that it's interesting, merely that we don't know whether the lines are "true" or not.

 

Yes, I think part of the reason I considered them changing the lines is because the whole dynamic of Molly and Sherlock's relationship changes some time in Season 3, and she takes on a more 'no-nonsense' approach with him by HLV, and is seen that way in the mind palace, so I thought they might have reflected that by making her seem a little bit less downtrodden.

 

Though, now I think of it, maybe the fact she was letting Sherlock stay in her bedroom could have been a problem for her relationship too. She confesses that in HLV, but it seems as if the 'bolthole' situation predates her breakup? I wouldn't be too crazy about my significant other giving their bedroom over to a friend, especially one they had a crush on for years. It seems such an odd situation. Was she then sleeping in the spare room? Why couldn't Sherlock just use the spare room, he's not that fussy where he sleeps usually, is he? Was Tom ever there, also? I'm picturing some sort of alternate universe episode of 'Three's a crowd' now.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Interesting questions!

 

I've always interpreted what Molly said in the bolthole scene to mean that she had only one bedroom (which would be reasonable for the sort of single person who would choose a simple coffin), and initially referred to it as "spare" to imply that she didn't really need it because she could sleep just fine on her sofa.

 

But I see that as Sherlock's reasoning, the manipulative bastard! Her "we agreed" seems in the same category as her (deleted) line about the breakup being a mutual decision.

[bedelia1984]

Yes, and with London prices, not many people would have a spare bedroom in a flat, I imagine.

 

He is so manipulative, if this is the case. And, if it is the same flat as in TFP, I bet the bedroom is as nice as the kitchen, too. He just doesn't deserve it.

 

There's also something ungentlemanly about the whole thing. I would have pictured Mycroft and Sherlock as being brought up to treat women a certain way- their mother doesn't seem like she'd let them away with treating women poorly. And yet, there is Mycroft's treatment of Mrs. Hudson, and Sherlock possibly turning Molly out of her own bed. Frankly, I expect better manners from both of them.

[gerry]

Sherlock doens't strike me as a guy that would respect different boundaries if Molly was in a relationship with someone else. Like he wouldn't let his friendship wth her change just because she had a boyfriend. He is the same guy that was quite miffed that she didn't answer his first call in the ILY scene. He expects to be first in her life and he wouldn't like it if he wasn't so if he caused an issue in her relationship, I don't think he'd mind.

 

However, in the bolthole scene, it's kind of incumbent on Molly to set those boundaries with Sherlock. She has to stand up for herself because Sherlock has no shame.

[Carol the Dabbler]

... in the bolthole scene, it's kind of incumbent on Molly to set those boundaries with Sherlock. She has to stand up for herself because Sherlock has no shame.

 

I don't see that as Molly's "duty" or "responsibility" (which is how the dictionary defines "incumbent"), but perhaps you meant something like "If she wants him to treat her better, then it's up to her to insist that he do so," in which case I agree.  In the bolthole scene, though, I still see Sherlock taking advantage of Molly's friendship and sympathy.  What else is new, sure, and maybe she shouldn't have taken pity on him, but still, BAD Sherlock!

 

I do suspect he'll be far less likely to play her like that after S4, though, because he seems to have grown up somewhat (even Lestrade now calls him a "good" man).  To those who object to the friendly way Molly is acting in the S4 epilog, I say this: Sure, the "I love you" scene was traumatic for her.  Maybe he explained/apologized, maybe he didn't.  But I believe he's been treating her with a good deal more empathy and respect since then, so he has earned her continued friendship.

[J.P.]

Sherlock doens't strike me as a guy that would respect different boundaries if Molly was in a relationship with someone else. Like he wouldn't let his friendship wth her change just because she had a boyfriend. He is the same guy that was quite miffed that she didn't answer his first call in the ILY scene. He expects to be first in her life and he wouldn't like it if he wasn't so if he caused an issue in her relationship, I don't think he'd mind.

 

However, in the bolthole scene, it's kind of incumbent on Molly to set those boundaries with Sherlock. She has to stand up for herself because Sherlock has no shame.

Which is also the way he was treating John's girlfriends before Mary. Probably not even noticing it. :D

[gerry]

Agreed J.P.!

 

 

 

... in the bolthole scene, it's kind of incumbent on Molly to set those boundaries with Sherlock. She has to stand up for herself because Sherlock has no shame.

I don't see that as Molly's "duty" or "responsibility" (which is how the dictionary defines "incumbent"), but perhaps you meant something like "If she wants him to treat her better, then it's up to her to insist that he do so," in which case I agree. In the bolthole scene, though, I still see Sherlock taking advantage of Molly's friendship and sympathy. What else is new, sure, and maybe she shouldn't have taken pity on him, but still, BAD Sherlock!

 

I do suspect he'll be far less likely to play her like that after S4, though, because he seems to have grown up somewhat (even Lestrade now calls him a "good" man). To those who object to the friendly way Molly is acting in the S4 epilog, I say this: Sure, the "I love you" scene was traumatic for her. Maybe he explained/apologized, maybe he didn't. But I believe he's been treating her with a good deal more empathy and respect since then, so he has earned her continued friendship.

I can't disagree with you more about this. Yes, if Sherlock is manipulative, that's not good but if Molly lets him do it over and over again, she's not any better. And if she's in a relationship but lets herself get manipulated because of her friendship with Sherlock, she bears some responsibility since she's the one in the relationship. It's like that saying, "fool me once, shame on you... fool me twice, shame on me."

 

Also regarding friendship, if Molly finds it difficult to be friends with Sherlock because of her unrequited feelings, I don't know why she owes it to Sherlock to be friends with him just because he's been nicer to her. To me, friendship isn't earned or owed, it needs to be mutually rewarding to sustain.

[bedelia1984]

 

...I don't see that as Molly's "duty" or "responsibility" (which is how the dictionary defines "incumbent"), but perhaps you meant something like "If she wants him to treat her better, then it's up to her to insist that he do so," in which case I agree.  In the bolthole scene, though, I still see Sherlock taking advantage of Molly's friendship and sympathy.  What else is new, sure, and maybe she shouldn't have taken pity on him, but still, BAD Sherlock!

 

I do suspect he'll be far less likely to play her like that after S4, though, because he seems to have grown up somewhat (even Lestrade now calls him a "good" man).  To those who object to the friendly way Molly is acting in the S4 epilog, I say this: Sure, the "I love you" scene was traumatic for her.  Maybe he explained/apologized, maybe he didn't.  But I believe he's been treating her with a good deal more empathy and respect since then, so he has earned her continued friendship.

 

I agree about Molly needing to be more assertive, but that also got me thinking about how I feel the writing for her, and her levels of assertiveness are up and down in different episodes, and the fact I think Gatiss and Moffat have differing approaches to the character in general.

 

We were chatting about the writers portrayal of women over in TFP  thread, but I wanted to talk about the way they differ when it comes to portraying Molly throughout the series, so I thought I'd post that part of my thoughts over here:

 

You can see it (Gatiss and Moffat's differing approaches to writing a female character) the most with Molly. I personally think both Gatiss (in The Empty Hearse, The Great Game and TST) and Steve Thomspon (in TRF) wrote Molly as a much more dynamic character, than in pretty much any of Moffat's solo-written episodes, especially Scandal, and her low profile appearance in TLD. She seems more put down and pushed to the side in Moffat's episodes,  whereas Gatiss finds all this cool stuff for Molly to do- dating Moriarty, investigating a crime, and while she's mostly unseen in TST, when we do see her she's tough with Sherlock, whereas by TLD she's just so worn-down, and only has the boring hand-wringing at what a bad boy Sherlock has been to do. TRF was also just an amazing episode for Molly, when she showed a lot of perception and strength as a character. I wonder has Moffat ever written a strong moment for her, on her own, which I'm not recalling? I couldn't count the Christmas party scene as the only show of strength had to be written in by the actress herself.

 

 

....

Also regarding friendship, if Molly finds it difficult to be friends with Sherlock because of her unrequited feelings, I don't know why she owes it to Sherlock to be friends with him just because he's been nicer to her. To me, friendship isn't earned or owed, it needs to be mutually rewarding to sustain.

 

I agree about her not owing him friendship, but they omitted to explain why or how they moved on from the TFP awkwardness, so it is frustratingly impossible for us as viewers to really know whether Molly is actually happy in that scene or pretending- it looks genuine to me? If she is, then whatever the reason, that seems a pretty good motivation to keep the friendship going.

 

What I didn't like about the lead in to the 'I love you' scene was that it seemed like she was sitting around her flat alone and miserable. I really want to believe that had nothing to do with Sherlock, because if it did I would say it probably was time for Molly to leave and get over him for good. 

[Arcadia]

Well, there is Molly in HLV, giving Sherlock what for about the drugs, and he seems to respect her opinion in his mind palace.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Sure, the "I love you" scene was traumatic for her. Maybe he explained/apologized, maybe he didn't. But I believe he's been treating her with a good deal more empathy and respect since then, so he has earned her continued friendship.

... if Molly finds it difficult to be friends with Sherlock because of her unrequited feelings, I don't know why she owes it to Sherlock to be friends with him just because he's been nicer to her. To me, friendship isn't earned or owed, it needs to be mutually rewarding to sustain.

 

I meant, if she still  wants to be friends with him (which, going by her track record up till then, I'd say she probably would), then I'd say that it has finally become, as you say, mutually rewarding.  She would no longer need to apologize to herself for it.

 

I agree about her not owing him friendship, but they omitted to explain why or how they moved on from the TFP awkwardness, so it is frustratingly impossible for us as viewers to really know whether Molly is actually happy in that scene or pretending- it looks genuine to me? If she is, then whatever the reason, that seems a pretty good motivation to keep the friendship going.

 

Exactly.

[bedelia1984]

Well, there is Molly in HLV, giving Sherlock what for about the drugs, and he seems to respect her opinion in his mind palace.

 

I'm on the fence about his characterisation of her in HLV. Partly because the shooting script had her written as even more pathetic than usual (crowding Tom, Sherlock needing his space from her too...), and I'm beginning to think Stephen is the one who is actually getting what for, from Sue, Mark and everyone else at the read-throughs, and having to man up and improve on his portrayal of Molly at that stage, rather than during the part he's doing by himself.

 

Then, also, because I find it a bit worrying that yet again the Moffat version of an empowered female is one who's engaging in an act of physical dominance, which seems a bit... icky. Please, don't make her more like Irene so she can be 'interesting', Moffat, as one Irene is already enough, thanks!

 

I really liked the way Molly was used in the Mind Palace, so kudos for that, certainly.

 

ETA: Just about Sherlock respecting Molly's opinion- this is what I find interesting about the Sherlock/ Molly relationship- I think Sherlock is more respectful to her than the writer is, in this episode, and other places too. Which makes me like Sherlock more, of course, and then wonder how he's managed to do it. Part of it is most certainly the acting, though. As I think you mentioned on the other thread, Benedict's acting adds all sorts of layers, enriching the script and sometimes out-right embellishing it.

[gerry]

 

 

Sure, the "I love you" scene was traumatic for her. Maybe he explained/apologized, maybe he didn't. But I believe he's been treating her with a good deal more empathy and respect since then, so he has earned her continued friendship.

... if Molly finds it difficult to be friends with Sherlock because of her unrequited feelings, I don't know why she owes it to Sherlock to be friends with him just because he's been nicer to her. To me, friendship isn't earned or owed, it needs to be mutually rewarding to sustain.

I meant, if she still wants to be friends with him (which, going by her track record up till then, I'd say she probably would), then I'd say that it has finally become, as you say, mutually rewarding. She would no longer need to apologize to herself for it.

I agree about her not owing him friendship, but they omitted to explain why or how they moved on from the TFP awkwardness, so it is frustratingly impossible for us as viewers to really know whether Molly is actually happy in that scene or pretending- it looks genuine to me? If she is, then whatever the reason, that seems a pretty good motivation to keep the friendship going.

Exactly.

I really like the Molly character but I find myself really disliking the Molly/Sherlock friendship because it has such an inequality about it. Sherlock gets all his needs met and I find myself wondering what she gets out of it? The ILY scene is emblematic of that for me. She is forced to say that with an audience but you're supposed to believe she's completely fine with it by the end of the episode and I'm sure it will never be brought up again. It makes the ILY scene pretty pointless actually in the grand scheme of things because there's likely going to be no change to their relationship.

[Surelock]

 

Though, now I think of it, maybe the fact she was letting Sherlock stay in her bedroom could have been a problem for her relationship too. She confesses that in HLV, but it seems as if the 'bolthole' situation predates her breakup? I wouldn't be too crazy about my significant other giving their bedroom over to a friend, especially one they had a crush on for years. It seems such an odd situation. Was she then sleeping in the spare room? Why couldn't Sherlock just use the spare room, he's not that fussy where he sleeps usually, is he? Was Tom ever there, also? I'm picturing some sort of alternate universe episode of 'Three's a crowd' now.

 

 

I think when Sherlock first came up to Molly and said he needed a 'bolthole' he was happy to just stay in her living room and sleep on her sofa. However I think Molly offered him her bedroom.

 

Molly is infatuated with Sherlock so she's always trying to win his favour. She probably said something like 'If you're ever in a tight spot, you can use my bedroom. I'll just sleep on the sofa. It's fine.'

 

I don't think Sherlock ever manipulated Molly. Honestly I don't think Sherlock ever needed to manipulate Molly. Molly would readily agree to basically all of his requests.

[gerry]

Edited to remove post.

[Surelock]

 

 

Yes, I think part of the reason I considered them changing the lines is because the whole dynamic of Molly and Sherlock's relationship changes some time in Season 3, and she takes on a more 'no-nonsense' approach with him by HLV, and is seen that way in the mind palace, so I thought they might have reflected that by making her seem a little bit less downtrodden.

 

 

Did the dynamic between Sherlock and Molly really change? I thought Molly was always mostly tolerant of Sherlock's behaviour but resorted to a more no-nonsense when he went too far (such as his deduction of her during Christmas in A Scandal in Belgravia). 

 

I always thought Sherlock's Mind Palace, especially in Season 3, reflected past events in his life. This is how real Mind Palaces work. You use visual memories of previous places, events etc in order to recall important information.

 

In The Sign of Three, Sherlock's Mind Palace was a court room because that's how he saw himself when he was interrogating those 4 ladies on the Mayfly man.

 

In His Last Vow, Sherlock's Mind Palace had Molly, Mycroft, Anderson and Moriarty in it. The reason for this is because he was dying after getting shot so his Mind Palace reflected his memory of almost dying previously. The last time Sherlock almost died was in The Reichenbach Fall. Moriarty's plan was to kill him. Anderson fell for it. Sherlock employed Mycroft and Molly's help to survive. That's why I believe only those 4 characters appeared in Sherlock's Mind Palace after he got shot. We didn't see John in the Mind Palace because John wasn't part of the plan. 

[bedelia1984]

 

Molly is infatuated with Sherlock so she's always trying to win his favour. She probably said something like 'If you're ever in a tight spot, you can use my bedroom. I'll just sleep on the sofa. It's fine.'

 

I don't think Sherlock ever manipulated Molly. Honestly I don't think Sherlock ever needed to manipulate Molly. Molly would readily agree to basically all of his requests.

 

 

How would you describe the early scene where he compliments her new hairstyle in The Blind Banker? To me, in the early episodes he will use her crush to manipulate her, in order to get access to the morgue etc. He seems pretty well-practiced at it, in fact, so i would see it as something he does more than we are shown onscreen. Sherlock isn't like himself at all in that scene, he's playing a part, like he is with Janine in HLV.

 

 

 

 

Yes, I think part of the reason I considered them changing the lines is because the whole dynamic of Molly and Sherlock's relationship changes some time in Season 3, and she takes on a more 'no-nonsense' approach with him by HLV, and is seen that way in the mind palace, so I thought they might have reflected that by making her seem a little bit less downtrodden.

 

 

Did the dynamic between Sherlock and Molly really change? I thought Molly was always mostly tolerant of Sherlock's behaviour but resorted to a more no-nonsense when he went too far (such as his deduction of her during Christmas in A Scandal in Belgravia). 

 

I always thought Sherlock's Mind Palace, especially in Season 3, reflected past events in his life. This is how real Mind Palaces work. You use visual memories of previous places, events etc in order to recall important information.

 

In The Sign of Three, Sherlock's Mind Palace was a court room because that's how he saw himself when he was interrogating those 4 ladies on the Mayfly man.

 

In His Last Vow, Sherlock's Mind Palace had Molly, Mycroft, Anderson and Moriarty in it. The reason for this is because he was dying after getting shot so his Mind Palace reflected his memory of almost dying previously. The last time Sherlock almost died was in The Reichenbach Fall. Moriarty's plan was to kill him. Anderson fell for it. Sherlock employed Mycroft and Molly's help to survive. That's why I believe only those 4 characters appeared in Sherlock's Mind Palace after he got shot. We didn't see John in the Mind Palace because John wasn't part of the plan. 

 

 

For me, her reaction is more hurt than no-nonsense in Scandal. The scene that really altered their relationship was in TRF, when she was the only person who saw that he was afraid he was going to die- which made Sherlock realise that she had more understanding of him than he realised. The changes that follow include the fact we don't see him flirt with Molly for his own gain again after this. We also see Molly begin to stand up for herself with him from this point on. There is a two year gap before TEH, but when they spend time together there, he is asking her to work with him, at a level that John used too, which is a show of respect, and he also asks her to hang out after the case as well. To me, this is when they are really friends, whereas before TRF she was just someone with a crush on him, whom he was ready to manipulate.

 

They cut the line from HLV where Molly said outright that she knew he had flirted with her in the past to get around her, but they do have John say that Molly saw through his BS years ago, which to me is an acknowledgement of the change that took place. By the time Molly slaps him in HLV, things are not the same between them, which concludes the arc that began in TRF.

 

 

...

I really like the Molly character but I find myself really disliking the Molly/Sherlock friendship because it has such an inequality about it. Sherlock gets all his needs met and I find myself wondering what she gets out of it? The ILY scene is emblematic of that for me. She is forced to say that with an audience but you're supposed to believe she's completely fine with it by the end of the episode and I'm sure it will never be brought up again. It makes the ILY scene pretty pointless actually in the grand scheme of things because there's likely going to be no change to their relationship.

 

 

I can see why that aspect is troublesome, but if the show comes back, I do believe it will be addressed somehow. I'm more confident that we'll see it in nuances of the performances than in the dialogue, but I do have hopes for the dialogue!

[Surelock]

 

How would you describe the early scene where he compliments her new hairstyle in The Blind Banker? To me, in the early episodes he will use her crush to manipulate her, in order to get access to the morgue etc. He seems pretty well-practiced at it, in fact, so i would see it as something he does more than we are shown onscreen. Sherlock isn't like himself at all in that scene, he's playing a part, like he is with Janine in HLV.

 

I forgot about that scene in The Blind Banker. It does look like Sherlock was manipulating her but that scene looked like it was written more for comedy purposes than anything else.

 

I find Molly to be somewhat difficult to understand because the writing around her seems to be inconsistent. 

 

For example I'm not sure if Sherlock is actually supposed to be aware of Molly's infatuation for him. It's true that he seemed to manipulate her by taking advantage of her feelings for him in The Blind Banker. However in A Scandal in Belgravia, he did this deduction of how Molly bought a present for someone she has feelings for but he didn't consider that person may have been him. Sherlock ended up unintentionally hurting Molly's feelings. However how could he have made a mistake like that if he was aware of her feelings for him?

 

 

For me, her reaction is more hurt than no-nonsense in Scandal. The scene that really altered their relationship was in TRF, when she was the only person who saw that he was afraid he was going to die- which made Sherlock realise that she had more understanding of him than he realised. The changes that follow include the fact we don't see him flirt with Molly for his own gain again after this. We also see Molly begin to stand up for herself with him from this point on. There is a two year gap before TEH, but when they spend time together there, he is asking her to work with him, at a level that John used too, which is a show of respect, and he also asks her to hang out after the case as well. To me, this is when they are really friends, whereas before TRF she was just someone with a crush on him, whom he was ready to manipulate.

 

They cut the line from HLV where Molly said outright that she knew he had flirted with her in the past to get around her, but they do have John say that Molly saw through his BS years ago, which to me is an acknowledgement of the change that took place. By the time Molly slaps him in HLV, things are not the same between them, which concludes the arc that began in TRF.

 

The problem with The Reichenbach Fall is that Sherlock was acting out a plan during the entire episode so it's difficult to tell how much of his actions were genuine character moments and how many of them were just pretense. 

 

Remember Sherlock and Mycroft's plan was to trick Moriarty into thinking that he had won. So Sherlock had to pretend he was genuinely worried about his life. Thus when Molly 'sees' that Sherlock fears for his life and compares him to her father, it can be argued that she's just being duped by Sherlock's acting. She's not really seeing anything.

 

This is one reason why I strongly dislike the I-was-just-acting-all-along plot twist that is quite popular in detective, spy, thriller etc fiction. It usually reduces everything the character does to pretense so it renders most, if not all, the character development as mute.

 

This is seen in The Reichenbach Fall with not just Sherlock and Molly but with Mycroft and John as well. Remember initially we're led to believe that Mycroft gave Moriarty information about Sherlock's past in order to talk. Moriarty uses this information to support his story of Sherlock being a fraud. Now Mycroft regrets his actions and wants John's help. John scolds Mycroft for using his brother for his own purposes.

 

Mycroft looks genuinely sad an regretful during this scene. This could have led to some great character development for Mycroft. But wait it was all an act. Mycroft was never really worried. He was just pretending. So all those great character moments for him in The Reichenbach Fall amounted to absolutely nothing.

 

I preferred how the I-was-just-acting-all-along plot twist was used in The Lying Detective. That episode actually used it to further character development rather than nullify it like in The Reichenbach Fall and that's one reason why I believe The Lying Detective was, overall, a better written episode than The Reichenbach Fall. Personally, I think it's very difficult to use I-was-just-acting-all-along plot twist in a way that furthers character development.

 

Anyway I never really saw how Molly fitted well into Sherlock's plan in The Reichenbach Fall. I've always founded her inclusion to just be a forced attempt at making her important. Sherlock said that he needed her to find the corpse of the doppelganger that Moriarty used to kidnap those children. However Sherlock had all of MI6 helping him. He didn't need Molly's help to find one corpse.

 

I'm not sure if Sherlock asking Molly to help him with cases in The Empty Hearse was a sign of respect. Remember Sherlock kept thinking of John when he was with her and even called her John once. In other words, Sherlock was just using Molly to fill a void in his heart. He was using Molly in a similar way to how Molly was using Tom. I don't think Sherlock was actually trying manipulate Molly but he didn't seem very appreciative of her when they were solving cases.

 

Where is the line from His Last Vow's original script in which Molly tells Sherlock that she knows the he flirted with her in the past to take advantage of her? I don't see it. 

 

It's true that John said that Molly had learnt to look past Sherlock but I'm not sure what he was referring to. Honestly that sounded to me like another forced line to make Molly sound important. It's like Moffat doesn't know what to do with her character. I think he loves Molly as a character but maybe he just can't figure out what kind of role she should have in the story.

 

 

[Arcadia]

I really like the Molly character but I find myself really disliking the Molly/Sherlock friendship because it has such an inequality about it. Sherlock gets all his needs met and I find myself wondering what she gets out of it? The ILY scene is emblematic of that for me. She is forced to say that with an audience but you're supposed to believe she's completely fine with it by the end of the episode and I'm sure it will never be brought up again. It makes the ILY scene pretty pointless actually in the grand scheme of things because there's likely going to be no change to their relationship.

 

I worry about that too ... if the show comes back, it would break what's left of my faith to see Molly in exactly the same position she's always been in.

 

 

In His Last Vow, Sherlock's Mind Palace had Molly, Mycroft, Anderson and Moriarty in it. The reason for this is because he was dying after getting shot so his Mind Palace reflected his memory of almost dying previously. The last time Sherlock almost died was in The Reichenbach Fall. Moriarty's plan was to kill him. Anderson fell for it. Sherlock employed Mycroft and Molly's help to survive. That's why I believe only those 4 characters appeared in Sherlock's Mind Palace after he got shot. We didn't see John in the Mind Palace because John wasn't part of the plan. 

 

Mmmmm .... maybe. But I find it more likely that those characters are metaphors for Sherlock's thought processes. Like in TSo3; the rational side of him is represented by Mycroft, but it's when he focuses on John's more humane "save the victim" way of thinking that he begins to solve the mystery. I don't think we're meant to believe he's actually imagining Mycroft as a judge in a courtroom. Molly and Anderson in HLV both represent the science of deduction, I would say. What Jim represents, I'm not sure.

 

 

ETA: Just about Sherlock respecting Molly's opinion- this is what I find interesting about the Sherlock/ Molly relationship- I think Sherlock is more respectful to her than the writer is, in this episode, and other places too. Which makes me like Sherlock more, of course, and then wonder how he's managed to do it. Part of it is most certainly the acting, though. As I think you mentioned on the other thread, Benedict's acting adds all sorts of layers, enriching the script and sometimes out-right embellishing it.

 

I think it's important to remember that Sherlock is not meant to be a decent man. We don't watch him to learn how to treat people; we're watching him learn how to treat people.

 

Whereas Benedict, from everything I've seen and read about him, seems utterly decent. Of course, that could all be acting and PR, but I hope not. :( At any rate, I think that's what a lot of us see peeking through Sherlock's often haughty demeanor; basic decency. Which I agree, probably isn't in the scripts per se. But as I said before, Moftiss chose the actor, so they must have wanted that aspect of Sherlock's character to be there, however hidden it may be much of the time.