Molly Hooper

[gerry]

I'm going to see if I can find an interview with Moffat or Gatiss about the original scene because I didn't remember it being specfiically described what the original scene was other than her being in a coffin.

[Surelock]

I'm going to see if I can find an interview with Moffat or Gatiss about the original scene because I didn't remember it being specfiically described what the original scene was other than her being in a coffin.

 

Here is it:

http://ew.com/tv/2017/01/16/sherlock-showrunner-season-4-finale/

 

 

You’ve said you originally had a completely different scene originally for that Molly sequence that you scrapped, what was it?

It was a rather boring one in retrospect. It was clever — Molly was actually trapped inside the coffin and they had to solve a puzzle to get her out. But while it was a clever puzzle and we liked it, we were the only ones who liked it. It was just another puzzle and it wasn’t something Euros would be particularly interested in putting Sherlock through because she’s more interested in the emotional then why he’s clever. So we scrapped it and I’m glad we did because I rather like the replacement scene.

 

 

Sounds like a typical rescue scene. If this was the original scene then it fits in better with how Molly behaved in the epilogue. However if Moffatiss changed this scene at the last minute into an 'I love you' scene then it would make sense for them to not have time to change how Molly behaved in the epilogue. Thus they just kept Molly's actions in the epilogue as is even though they're no longer consistent with what happened with her earlier.

[gerry]

FWIW, the original article I remembered was this: http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2017-01-23/that-scene-in-mollys-kitchen-in-the-sherlock-finale-was-almost-very-different. In that article is just references a coffin and a timer but the ew interview references the coffin and puzzle. I must have stopped reading after I read she went and shagged someone line since I remembered being really annoyed by that....

 

"You’ve said you originally had a completely different scene originally for that Molly sequence that you scrapped, what was it?

It was a rather boring one in retrospect. It was clever — Molly was actually trapped inside the coffin and they had to solve a puzzle to get her out. But while it was a clever puzzle and we liked it, we were the only ones who liked it. It was just another puzzle and it wasn’t something Euros would be particularly interested in putting Sherlock through because she’s more interested in the emotional then why he’s clever. So we scrapped it and I’m glad we did because I rather like the replacement scene."

 

http://ew.com/tv/2017/01/16/sherlock-showrunner-season-4-finale/

 

I do find his opinion that it was harder on Sherlock than Molly funny since it's Molly that has the unrequited feelings but Moffat seems like a different kind of guy.

[gerry]

 

 

I'm going to see if I can find an interview with Moffat or Gatiss about the original scene because I didn't remember it being specfiically described what the original scene was other than her being in a coffin.

Here is it:

http://ew.com/tv/2017/01/16/sherlock-showrunner-season-4-finale/

 

 

 

You’ve said you originally had a completely different scene originally for that Molly sequence that you scrapped, what was it?

It was a rather boring one in retrospect. It was clever — Molly was actually trapped inside the coffin and they had to solve a puzzle to get her out. But while it was a clever puzzle and we liked it, we were the only ones who liked it. It was just another puzzle and it wasn’t something Euros would be particularly interested in putting Sherlock through because she’s more interested in the emotional then why he’s clever. So we scrapped it and I’m glad we did because I rather like the replacement scene.

Sounds like a typical rescue scene. If this was the original scene then it fits in better with how Molly behaved in the epilogue. However if Moffatiss changed this scene at the last minute into an 'I love you' scene then it would make sense for them to not have time to change how Molly behaved in the epilogue. Thus they just kept Molly's actions in the epilogue as is even though they're no longer consistent with what happened with her earlier.

Thanks Surelock. We were cross posting so I think I duplicated your quote. Given Moffat's quotes in the same article I don't think the rewrite had any correlation to leaving the montage in as is. I believe him, he truly believes that a follow up scene wasn't necessary because Sherlock was more affected by it than she was. I think that's a bit strange but if you believe him and take what he said at face value, they saw no reason to change the montage scene because the ILY scene was no big deal and there was no inherent inconsistency.

[bedelia1984]

To a really tiny extent I agree with Moffat (even though he was so ungentlemanly in the way he delivered his point it would have been better to keep his mouth closed).

 

The scene didn't really do anything new to Molly- she's been embarrassed by the exposure of her feelings for Sherlock before- by Sherlock himself, actually, in Scandal. For Sherlock, this scene was pushing him to confront both Molly's feelings and his own about whatever the hell is going on between them. And seeing as he obliterated the coffin just after, he clearly found that more than a bit challenging. They had Eurus say 'Look what you did to yourself' to focus the audience on that aspect (as well as the fact he upset Molly, naturally, but he's done that before without getting quite so livid about the whole business afterwards.)

 

It was a nasty thing to put Molly through, but I think she can recover from it, mainly because she's already been that soldier. Not because of the awful and wrong reasons that Moffat provided.

 

I really, really hope the montage wasn't filmed early on, mostly because it seems so slap-dash to have the incongruity of Molly's mood at the end be unintentional.

[gerry]

I wish I did agree with that. To me having to say ILY when you're in love with someone knowing they don't reciprocate will always be worse than making that person say it under duress because their feelings are obviously deeper. It was new for Sherlock to let himself feel emotional but to say because he smashed up a coffin it affected him more, I have a hard time believing that. My guess is just that Molly's feelings would have just been expressed differently after the call.

 

I do find it incongruous that the writer himself claims that the scene was the best of the episode but also believes it wasn't so big a deal to have resolution scene.

[Surelock]

I guess it's just a matter of opinion but personally I don't buy Moffat's 'Molly got over it' argument. I think Moffat just got defensive when the interviewer asked that question (Moffat has been criticised for his portrayal of women) so he said whatever came to his mind. I think the actual case was that Moffat didn't consider the consequences of the 'i love you' scene until he heard that question.

[bedelia1984]

In fairness, Gatiss also wrote this episode, and he said that we'll just never know if Sherlock means the ILY or not. So evidently he at least gave the episode some thought, and deliberately left things ambiguous.

 

I don't know if I believe Moffat hadn't given it consideration either- but he certainly sounds a bit defensive about not having any resolution for that scene. I wonder was it mentioned to them by anybody before the episode aired?

 

By the way, I don't know where I saw it but some tabloidy paper online had an interview with Rupert Graves last autumn, talking about how this season was the one when Lestrade would finally make a move on Molly. I kind of wanted to see that happen! And I bet Rupert did too, seeing as they gave his character absolutely zilch this year. I wonder were there ever any plans, or was it the Sherlock version of fake news?!

[Carol the Dabbler]

Well, shoot, I'd have loved to see that!  Maybe what Graves actually said was he hoped it would be in S4, and the interviewer reworded it (to make it more "interesting").

 

Maybe in Series 5? 

 

As for the aftermath of the ILY scene, as somebody said a while back here, I'm perfectly willing to believe that they patched things up pretty quickly.  After all, Eurus could no longer keep Sherlock from explaining that he'd been operating under a threat to her life.  We just weren't there when he explained it.  In mathematics, that's called a removable discontinuity -- a little something that's missing, but easy enough to patch.

[bedelia1984]

You're right, Carol, here it is.

 

Roll on season 5, if Sherlock has an Irene, Molly can have a Lestrade! I think this would be such a cute storyline. Not that Moftiss have ever shown themselves to be in search of cute storylines.

[Arcadia]

I'm available if they want advice on the next one... like Sherlock has to kiss Molly or the villain will blow up Scotland Yard... or they have to go on a romantic holiday to Paris or else an assassin will take out poor Mrs Hudson... or they have to spend the rest of their lives together or else the puppy gets it...

 

​From your lips to Moftisses' ears. :D

 

The truth is that Moffat likely just doesn't value the Molly/Sherlock relationship that much so he doesn't write for it.

 

I'm afraid you may be right. He's enamored of Irene instead.

 

By the way, I don't know where I saw it but some tabloidy paper online had an interview with Rupert Graves last autumn, talking about how this season was the one when Lestrade would finally make a move on Molly. I kind of wanted to see that happen! And I bet Rupert did too, seeing as they gave his character absolutely zilch this year. I wonder were there ever any plans, or was it the Sherlock version of fake news?!

You know, that's another plot thread that went nowhere ... Sherlock giving Lestrade dating advice. I thought for sure that lady cop was going to be Lestrade's new love interest, but she disappeared without a trace. Then I wondered if they were leading up to having Sherlock do a bit of matchmaking between Greg and Molly. But in fact, it went nowhere at all. (So why bring it up????)

[bedelia1984]

 

By the way, I don't know where I saw it but some tabloidy paper online had an interview with Rupert Graves last autumn, talking about how this season was the one when Lestrade would finally make a move on Molly. I kind of wanted to see that happen! And I bet Rupert did too, seeing as they gave his character absolutely zilch this year. I wonder were there ever any plans, or was it the Sherlock version of fake news?!

You know, that's another plot thread that went nowhere ... Sherlock giving Lestrade dating advice. I thought for sure that lady cop was going to be Lestrade's new love interest, but she disappeared without a trace. Then I wondered if they were leading up to having Sherlock do a bit of matchmaking between Greg and Molly. But in fact, it went nowhere at all. (So why bring it up????)

 

 

Sherlock did say something really odd to Greg, didn't he? Like that new female detective was nice but she wasn't the one? Was he about to become some kind of love guru? If only Eurus hadn't ruined it all with her shenanigans. :(

The truth is that Moffat likely just doesn't value the Molly/Sherlock relationship that much so he doesn't write for it.

 

I'm afraid you may be right. He's enamored of Irene instead. 

 

 

There was a cynical part of me that wondered whether part of the reason that they left that ending open was because they don't know Lara Pulver's availability for season 5. 

[Surelock]

 

The truth is that Moffat likely just doesn't value the Molly/Sherlock relationship that much so he doesn't write for it.

 

Well I'm pretty sure that Moffat at least likes Molly.

 

In an interview they revealed that they initially weren't planning on having any original characters in the main cast of Sherlock but Moffatiss liked Louise Brealey's performance of Molly so much that they decided to add her to the main cast:

 

"She's really interesting, Molly, because she was an absolute one-scene character for the pilot but Loo Brealy was just so fantastic," Moffat said.

 

"We went against our first decision which was 'We will not add a regular that's not from Doyle'. The first thing we did was add a regular character that's not from Doyle!"

 

He continued: "I think she's fascinating because over time, certainly by the time you get to the second series, she wins every encounter with Sherlock.

 

"All the time, always. And by being honest and truthful with him. He's so on the back foot now with Molly, I think it's hilarious.

 

"In a way that John can never put Sherlock on the back foot, Molly really, really does. She sort of wins every single conversation."

 

Looking back at this interview now I wonder what on earth Moffat was referring to when he said this. How does Molly get Sherlock on the back foot? How does Molly win any conversation against Sherlock? Is Moffat even talking about the same Molly that we see in Sherlock?

 

Also later in the interview I think Moffat may have revealed Molly's role in Sherlock:

 

Moffat agreed: "It's extraordinary. What you don't get a lot of in the original stories is, 'What do women think of him?'.

 

"They don't talk much in the original stories. It doesn't happen much. There's Irene Adler who he barely meets in the original. There's Mrs Hudson who just brings tea in.

 

"It was fun to have that perspective on him, what would a modern young woman make of this vulnerable monster."

 

So Molly is supposed to be Moffat's interpretation of a modern young woman? So Moffat thinks modern young women act like teenage girls that are experiencing their first crush? No wonder Moffat gets criticised for his portrayal of women.

[bedelia1984]

 

 

So Molly is supposed to be Moffat's interpretation of a modern young woman? So Moffat thinks modern young women act like teenage girls that are experiencing their first crush? No wonder Moffat gets criticised for his portrayal of women.

 

 

I don't think he means for her to come across as teenage- to me he just writes her as emotionally naive but intellectually and professionally mature.

 

I think one of his problems with the portrayal of women is that his characterisation is all extremes, all his women are one kind of an 'ideal' or another, instead of being rounded characters. It is like how Irene is written as a person who can weild huge sex appeal, and yet I don't feel we know anything else about who she really is, whereas with Molly she seems very real, devoted and downtrodden and yet without any clue as to how to have sex appeal. Most real women can be both downtrodden and sexy at the same time, but apparently not on Sherlock.

 

The one exception for me is Janine, because she had a lovely balance of strength, sexuality and vulnerability. 

 

The most unfortunate thing about his portrayal of women's sexuality to me is the way it is used to repeatedly best and belittle women- Irene's attraction to Sherlock proves her undoing, Sherlock can trick Janine into getting into CAM's office using her attraction to him, Molly's crush makes her a target to be joked about and humiliated.

 

It is rather at odds with John's speech about how love can make you a whole person- but maybe Moffat's idea of what love is for a man is a bit more wonderful than what it can mean for a woman?

[Surelock]

 

It is rather at odds with John's speech about how love can make you a whole person- but maybe Moffat's idea of what love is for a man is a bit more wonderful than what it can mean for a woman?

 

I'm pretty certain a lot of women would find a statement like this to be offensive.

[bedelia1984]

 

 

It is rather at odds with John's speech about how love can make you a whole person- but maybe Moffat's idea of what love is for a man is a bit more wonderful than what it can mean for a woman?

 

I'm pretty certain a lot of women would find a statement like this to be offensive.

 

 

Very sorry if I have offended as I didn't mean to! I just feel like the feeling is portrayed as having different consequences for men and women on the show, if that makes sense? As in I think that portrayal is a bit  unequal, and women are frequently shown to be at a disadvantage because of their emotional nature.

[Arcadia]

 

You know, that's another plot thread that went nowhere ... Sherlock giving Lestrade dating advice. I thought for sure that lady cop was going to be Lestrade's new love interest, but she disappeared without a trace. Then I wondered if they were leading up to having Sherlock do a bit of matchmaking between Greg and Molly. But in fact, it went nowhere at all. (So why bring it up????)

 

 

Sherlock did say something really odd to Greg, didn't he? Like that new female detective was nice but she wasn't the one? Was he about to become some kind of love guru? If only Eurus hadn't ruined it all with her shenanigans. :(

 

Greg had a date, Sherlock said she wasn't "the one", but we don't know who Greg's date was. And that was the end of that. I agree, it was a bit odd.

 

 

Well I'm pretty sure that Moffat at least likes Molly.

 

In an interview they revealed that they initially weren't planning on having any original characters in the main cast of Sherlock but Moffatiss liked Louise Brealey's performance of Molly so much that they decided to add her to the main cast:

 

"She's really interesting, Molly, because she was an absolute one-scene character for the pilot but Loo Brealy was just so fantastic," Moffat said.

 

"We went against our first decision which was 'We will not add a regular that's not from Doyle'. The first thing we did was add a regular character that's not from Doyle!"

 

He continued: "I think she's fascinating because over time, certainly by the time you get to the second series, she wins every encounter with Sherlock.

 

"All the time, always. And by being honest and truthful with him. He's so on the back foot now with Molly, I think it's hilarious.

 

"In a way that John can never put Sherlock on the back foot, Molly really, really does. She sort of wins every single conversation."

 

Looking back at this interview now I wonder what on earth Moffat was referring to when he said this. How does Molly get Sherlock on the back foot? How does Molly win any conversation against Sherlock? Is Moffat even talking about the same Molly that we see in Sherlock?

 

Hm. Interesting. Well, as several people have pointed out here and there, Mr. Moffat's often very imprecise with his language. So when he says "on the back foot", it may not be quite as dramatic as it sounds, and when he says "she wins every conversation", he probably doesn't mean every conversation. But ... she certainly set Sherlock back a bit at the Christmas party; he had to apologize. And in TRF, when she offers to help, he's a bit thrown too ... he doesn't know how to respond.

 

I don't know about TEH; he's kind and friendly to her, is all. Well, she does give him that look that brings him to order in the train guy's place. (One of my favorite moments between them.) And she certainly sets him back with her "lot's of sex" comment in TSo3! And maybe the slaps in HLV count too, although his verbal response made it tit for tat, imo.

 

And a lot of people seem to think she won the "I love you" round in season 4 by making him say it first.

 

So, that's not every time, but she certainly does have a way of keeping him off balance. Although I've never thought it was just him, I figure everyone's a bit off balance around her because she's so awkward herself.

[Carol the Dabbler]

... that's another plot thread that went nowhere ... Sherlock giving Lestrade dating advice. I thought for sure that lady cop was going to be Lestrade's new love interest, but she disappeared without a trace.

 

Sherlock did say something really odd to Greg, didn't he? Like that new female detective was nice but she wasn't the one?

 

Greg had a date, Sherlock said she wasn't "the one", but we don't know who Greg's date was. And that was the end of that. I agree, it was a bit odd.

 

Just my assumption, but I figured it was that forensics gal who came to Sherlock's apartment and got bounced right back out.  Though she seemed to have a bit of a thing for Sherlock....

[bedelia1984]

 

... that's another plot thread that went nowhere ... Sherlock giving Lestrade dating advice. I thought for sure that lady cop was going to be Lestrade's new love interest, but she disappeared without a trace.

 

Sherlock did say something really odd to Greg, didn't he? Like that new female detective was nice but she wasn't the one?

 

Greg had a date, Sherlock said she wasn't "the one", but we don't know who Greg's date was. And that was the end of that. I agree, it was a bit odd.

 

Just my assumption, but I figured it was that forensics gal who came to Sherlock's apartment and got bounced right back out.  Though she seemed to have a bit of a thing for Sherlock....

 

 

I also had a moment, like I think Arcadia suggested a bit above, where I thought somehow Sherlock might have meant that Molly was a better choice for him (than the policewoman at Sherlock's door, who I also assumed was her)? But then I might have been influenced by Rupert Graves' article, which I only noticed on a re-read also hints at Greg-lock, and Sherlock's return from the dead deepening their love! It seems Lestrade is perhaps not all the fussy about his choice of companion.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I assume he's lonely (which is partly a euphemism, partly not) since his wife left him.  We do know that she left, don't we?  Or are we assuming that because he doesn't talk about her anymore, plus she wasn't with him at the wedding?

[bedelia1984]

I thought maybe he left her, because she treated him so badly, what with all the affairs? I hope he did, anyway. But yeah, he seemed pretty willing in the past to forgive her for the sake of some... company. If he is carrying a torch for Molly, it has officially been almost as long as Molly has for Sherlock, right? He seemed very enamoured at the Christmas party, anyway. And he sits beside her at the wedding. The two of them made a much better pair than her and Tom. Plus, he seems like he calls in to her lab in TSOT for a bit of a chat? It's nice to imagine them being friends, at least. And he seemed a bit disappointed in TEH when she said she was seeing Tom.

 

Why wouldn't Greg just ask Molly out though, even if she might say no? I can kind of imagine him asking her out and her not understanding that it's a date. One thing about Molly is that in fics she's often written as having lost her mother young. I get why people think that. she doesn't seem like someone with a close female relative or friend with whom she can talk over dating/ men stuff. That would help her out a bit, maybe. I liked to think Mary could be someone like that for her, but we never saw anything of their friendship, if they had one.

 

If Greg was gay, and Mycroft was gay (as I thought he was, until recently), they would have made such a good couple. I can totally see why Mystrade is a thing.  But I can see him with Molly too. He belongs with someone a bit neurotic, I think, because he'd be such a nice calming influence.

[gerry]

Looking back at this interview now I wonder what on earth Moffat was referring to when he said this. How does Molly get Sherlock on the back foot? How does Molly win any conversation against Sherlock? Is Moffat even talking about the same Molly that we see in Sherlock?

If I had to guess he's referring to the times that Molly makes Sherlock uncomfortable or unnerves him by being blunt. In SiB, it was telling him honestly/showing him how cruel his deduction in the xmas scene really was. In turn he apologized which at the time was new because he hadn't apologized to anyone that was offended by him before. I don't remember anything in HoB. In TRF, it was her telling him I don't matter and that she could see what he was hiding from John. He was so surprised by her observation that all he could say was "but you see me?" He just couldn't figure out how to respond which is unusual for Sherlock. He did respond to her later when he said that he trusted her but not immediately. In season 4 making him say ILY first was definitely unnerving to him.

 

So Molly is supposed to be Moffat's interpretation of a modern young woman? So Moffat thinks modern young women act like teenage girls that are experiencing their first crush? No wonder Moffat gets criticised for his portrayal of women.

We disagree about Molly's potrayal as a teenage girl. I agree with the interpretation that it was more of an infatuation early on but her feelings have deepened over time and she has also gotten stronger around him over time as well.

 

I do agree that Moffat's interpretation of modern women today is out of touch. He can't seem to write them other than through a male character's point of view, rather than a complicated, full dimensional character. They almost always end up as a caricature or underdeveloped one note characters.

[gerry]

It is rather at odds with John's speech about how love can make you a whole person- but maybe Moffat's idea of what love is for a man is a bit more wonderful than what it can mean for a woman?

It's like he doesn't understand the emotional beats of what makes a woman tick. Of course, not all women are the same but he can't seem to put himself in the opposite POV but he defintely understands male friendships as his wonderful writing for Sherlock and Watson shows.

[Redbeard]

 

So Molly is supposed to be Moffat's interpretation of a modern young woman? So Moffat thinks modern young women act like teenage girls that are experiencing their first crush? No wonder Moffat gets criticised for his portrayal of women.

 

 

Well in fairness...it is Sherlock Holmes.  Many a mature woman (ahem) would be reduced in such a way in his presence.  He's Sherlock Holmes, not Sam the accountant lol.   Can't honestly blame her. 

[Arcadia]

I thought maybe he left her, because she treated him so badly, what with all the affairs? I hope he did, anyway. But yeah, he seemed pretty willing in the past to forgive her for the sake of some... company. If he is carrying a torch for Molly, it has officially been almost as long as Molly has for Sherlock, right? He seemed very enamoured at the Christmas party, anyway. And he sits beside her at the wedding. The two of them made a much better pair than her and Tom. Plus, he seems like he calls in to her lab in TSOT for a bit of a chat? It's nice to imagine them being friends, at least. And he seemed a bit disappointed in TEH when she said she was seeing Tom.

 

Why wouldn't Greg just ask Molly out though, even if she might say no? I can kind of imagine him asking her out and her not understanding that it's a date. One thing about Molly is that in fics she's often written as having lost her mother young. I get why people think that. she doesn't seem like someone with a close female relative or friend with whom she can talk over dating/ men stuff. That would help her out a bit, maybe. I liked to think Mary could be someone like that for her, but we never saw anything of their friendship, if they had one.

 

Yes, I would have loved to have seen a Molly/Mary/Mrs. Hudson mashup, where they all went off and deducted rings around Sherlock, John and Greg. Alas, it was not to be.