Molly Hooper

[gerry]

 

 

 

 

I think Toby meant it's no big deal that we didn't get to witness the conversation, not that the conversation itself was no big deal. I like to think the conversation was a very big deal indeed, if it resulted in her smiling like that at the end. ;)

Thanks Arcadia, that was indeed what I meant.

 

As for what actually was discussed between them, maybe it's good that the conversation happened off screen because that way, those who would like to think of Sherlock and Molly as a couple have a good opening there but those who don't are free to believe they are still just friends.

...

The nicest thing about leaving the options open is that its not rubbed in anyones faces that their idea of how Sherlock should be or who he should be with isn't happening. I do think some of TJLC goes way too far, but I also feel bad for the young people who would love to see Sherlock/ John represent them onscreen. I can see why that would mean a lot for them, and it's nice it doesn't have to be trampled all over.

 

Plus, I have this feeling that whatever Moftiss could or would write between Sherlock and Molly onscreen could never match up to the sort of shenanigans going on in the imagination of the fans!

If the writers chose the option of open ended just because they are afraid of shippers being upset then that's a bit of a cop out and gives Surelock's theory credence that it's done on purpose rather than the writers being ambiguous as a matter of course.

[bedelia1984]

I don't believe Moftiss feel any responsibility to any of the shippers for any pairing, nor would I want them to. I think the main responsibility they feel is to Sherlock as a character. I've read them both describe him as somebody capable of falling in love, and I think they wanted to leave that open but without committing as to his choice of whether to pursue a relationship or not.

 

For me, that's as good as it gets. I always found the original idea of Sherlock retiring on his own to keep bees a little bit sad- considering how much our version enjoys the friendship and companionship of the people in his life. So I like to at least imagine it is possible he has more than that later. But then, it's good that the people who think of him happiest by himself have that option too.

 

For me, the deliberate ambiguity (which I think it is, and rightly so, it's too important to be accidental) isn't a cop out, there is actually a little bit of beauty in an ending that gives him a a few more options than the canon Sherlock, for those who want to believe he would be happier with another sort of life. It also recognises a little bit of who the figure of Sherlock Holmes has become in our modern culture- a man with many versions and many possibilities, who will likely continue to be re-interpreted for many years to come.

 

Also, I think of lot it may have been their wanting to do justice to Benedict Cumberbatch's portrayal of Sherlock, which is a little bit unique in that he exudes an energy slightly different from other versions of Sherlock, and all those possibilities the fans speculate on are effervescing from his very layered portrayal. I like that their choice to leave it open acknowledges all that onscreen chemistry he's helped create- I really enjoy it when writing respects what the actors are bringing to the table. Not to say I think that Moftiss are perfect, but they have gotten some aspects of the show very right.

[gerry]

I don't believe Moftiss feel any responsibility to any of the shippers for any pairing, nor would I want them to. I think the main responsibility they feel is to Sherlock as a character. I've read them both describe him as somebody capable of falling in love, and I think they wanted to leave that open but without committing as to his choice of whether to pursue a relationship or not...

 

To me if this is true, that's a cop out. You'd think the writers would have a vision of what this Sherlock would do (be alone because romantic entanglements aren't of interest to him or choosing to find value in it with whomever that may be) and if they still choose to not let the viewers know that in the show for whatever reason that is not committing to their own vision, especially if their intent is for viewers to just imagine it as they want to. In all works of entertainment, (be it books, movies, tv), there's always an element of interpretation because everyone brings with their viewing their own experiences. However, I personally prefer less ambiguity so I know who the character is. Not knowing exactly how Sherlock faked his death is not important to his characterization so I don't care if it's left ambiguous. It does bother me though if season 4 was the last series, that you can't tell what his choice was regarding relationships because that is fundamentally part of his characterization so I disagree with Toby that this type of choice is not important to Sherlock's character arc.

 

To me that's not beauty, it's lazy writing.

[bedelia1984]

I can understand being annoyed about lack of resolution, as I would have definitely loved an extra scene after the phone call. For me, it wouldn't have had to define the relationship, but I probably would have liked more to guess about.

 

Maybe another reason for them to leave things ambiguous is in case they do come back- it just gives them more options? 

 

By the way, different topic, if anyone is looking for a nice Mollstrade fic, this one  'An Avalanche of Detour Signs' is really quite good- though it seems to be one of the top ones, so many people may have already read it.

[gerry]

Another Molly scene wouldn't have solved my ultimate issue. I'm just surprised that for what may likely be the last episode of the series, that tacked on ending was satisfying to people. I wish it were to me. I didn't get a sense of how his life would be different or what he "learned" from Eurus' game of death and emotional context even though Moffat/Gatiss claimed that it changed Sherlock except that he and John were going to solve crimes together which isn't a new revelation and for whatever reason he forgave her enough to play violin with her. Yet you're supposed to find it believable they're all happy as clams at the end despite the story leading up to that being about death and emotional upheaval. I guess that's the difference between plot driven and character driven writing like that one blog articulated. The fact that it may very likely be the last episode necessitated a happy ending but it didn't feel organic to me.

[bedelia1984]

In a perfect world, I would have made the last episode more organic too (If it really was the last. I am still holding out for a special. A full season five seems almost too much to hope for, though I would love it).

 

It is not even the character development- though I would have liked more, I was surprised and pleased with how much we got. I just would have liked a more cosy, 'Baker Street' feel to the very last episode. It is ironic, because though Mary calls them the 'Baker Street boys' at the end, Baker street was really missing from that episode for me.

 

I don't think the end was perfect by any means, but if we have to leave them all, I would rather leave them all seeming happy, even if we don't know the whys or hows. But yes, in an ideal world, I would have liked to see how they all got there, and more of everyone in Baker Street, and a bit less in Sherrinford. It should have been a two-part finale, really, but then it would have been a definite series ender I suppose.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I figure I'll just have to live with the Eurus part of it.  Nothing I can do about it, so try not to think about it too much, 'cause it makes my brain hurt.

 

As for the Baker Street part of the epilog, I am hopeful that Moftiss have truly gotten all that angsty stuff out of their systems, and really are ready to show us Sherlock and John solving crimes a la updated Conan Doyle (plus scenes with their friends and family).

[Carol the Dabbler]

... if anyone is looking for a nice Mollstrade fic, this one  'An Avalanche of Detour Signs' is really quite good- though it seems to be one of the top ones, so many people may have already read it.

I had not (haven't read much fanfic, actually), so thanks for the link!

 

I really enjoyed the story, including the way several scenes from the show were included as part of it, but from Molly's perspective, which makes them quite different from what we thought. Even so, it's entirely canon-compliant -- though it was written well before S3 was even filmed, so there are of course some unfamiliar bits toward the end.

[bedelia1984]

 

... if anyone is looking for a nice Mollstrade fic, this one  'An Avalanche of Detour Signs' is really quite good- though it seems to be one of the top ones, so many people may have already read it.

I had not (haven't read much fanfic, actually), so thanks for the link!

 

I really enjoyed the story, including the way several scenes from the show were included as part of it, but from Molly's perspective, which makes them quite different from what we thought. Even so, it's entirely canon-compliant -- though it was written well before S3 was even filmed, so there are of course some unfamiliar bits toward the end.

 

 

Glad somebody else enjoyed this one! It had been a while so I forgot that parts of it were a bit dark, but like you say the character insights are well done, and I like that the Lestrade in the story is the sort of guy who laughs at Molly's jokes.

 

I have to confess I had thought this was a Sherlock/ Molly fic and was about three quarters of the way through when my terminal confusion lifted... but the writer makes it really believable, I think because she can draw on a lot of inherent similarities in Molly and Lestrade as characters, you can see how they would understand and empathise with each other.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Oh, and one of the things that I especially like is the idea that when we first meet Jim Moriarty in "Great Game"....

 

 

... he is mimicking Molly, presumably so she'll feel comfortable with him.

 

That had never occurred to me, but it seems like a logical strategy, and it does fit what I see in the show.

[bedelia1984]

Yes, I thought it was really interesting what the author did with that dynamic.

 

 

Everything struck me as right when in came to Molly/ Moriarty- maybe not the extent to which they were involved, but the idea that the closer she got to him, the more uneasy she became and the more vacant he seemed, and even the gradual air of menace around the whole thing. Because Molly is always presented as such an empathetic character it would have made sense for her to pick up on something not being right with 'Jim'. That was a thread they never picked up in the series- how Molly would have felt about Moriarty coming back, apart from that one look at the end of HLV.

 

[Arcadia]

I figure I'll just have to live with the Eurus part of it.  Nothing I can do about it, so try not to think about it too much, 'cause it makes my brain hurt.

 

As for the Baker Street part of the epilog, I am hopeful that Moftiss have truly gotten all that angsty stuff out of their systems, and really are ready to show us Sherlock and John solving crimes a la updated Conan Doyle (plus scenes with their friends and family).

 

What about the Eurus part bugs you? I don't think I've even seen you mention her before now.

 

Although I guess that should go in the Eurus thread. Right now, alas, I have to fly, or I'd take it there.

[bedelia1984]

New interview with Louise

 

From the article:

 

“I know Steven and I think he was probably just being a bit wicked and saying something offhand,” she says now. His comment, she adds, doesn’t sound like “a real verdict on Molly”, and certainly isn’t in line with conversations the two of them had about the character.

 

 

Which was pretty much what I'd thought, but nice to read anyway.

 

I checked out her new show 'Clique', not sure it is my thing, but she's very good in it.

[gerry]

LB seems like a smart, classy lady. Pretty smart PR wise too not taking the bait to comment on Moffat or his writing.

 

I'm sure that Moffat would say the shag someone quote was just a joke but the sentiment in his quote that a follow up scene wasn't necessary I'm sure was how he felt or they would have wrote one.

[bedelia1984]

Yes, I always link LB comes across really nicely in interviews. 

 

I think Moffat knew the lack of follow up was a bit of a cop out, but to my way of thinking they just couldn't settle on a good 'resolution'- especially if they were on the fence about returning. The way they did end it smacks of Moffat to me, I can just picture him saying 'look, we've shown Molly's all right, never mind how, and the minority of bleeding-heart fans will have to get over it'.

 

[gerry]

That's essentially how I view Moffat as well based on interviews and his writing of the character. I do wonder what made Moffat so defensive on the topic in that ew interview though.

 

Of all the writers on this show he seems like the one who had the most trouble finding a consistent voice for Molly other than as a love sick woman for Sherlock. I do wish that if they wanted to maintain status quo with the Sherlock/Molly friendship in this Sherlock-verse, they didn't do the ILY call because that call was incongruous with the montage.

 

Considering it is likely the last episode they could have done a lot better by both Molly and Lestrade as characters.

[bedelia1984]

In fairness, Lestrade was the most shamefully underused of all. At least Molly has got herself a thread here! I missed Lestrade. I wonder was there some problem with availability for Rupert Graves.

 

I think (for no special reason, pure speculation) there was some conflict as to what to do with Molly from across the Sherlock team, and the result was that we got a little bit of a neither- here- nor- there ending (which suits me better than one I would have disliked, or of course them writing her off completely)

 

For me, the way Irene Adler was still very much a presence (though not physically) said maybe SM hasn't totally let go of the dream of revisiting that story, so he won't try any other romantic direction with Sherlock, at least not wholeheartedly. Or rather, if he did, he might have to be dragged kicking and screaming and promised compensation in the form of increasingly huge explosions, Bond style helicopter sequences and everyone shooting everyone.

[gerry]

Totally agree on Lestrade. I can only remember two scenes with him in Season 4 and I do enjoy his dry sense of humor. Season 4 didn't have the natural balance of all characters like seasons 1 and 2 did. They spent so much time on villains, Mary and Eurus that there was very little of the charm from the secondary characters that was there early on.

[Shadow Dweller]

Suddenly I am thinking about what kind of colours-scheme of clothing would fit Molly. Not yellow and brown, that is certain. Any idea?

[Carol the Dabbler]

Suddenly I am thinking about what kind of colours-scheme of clothing would fit Molly. Not yellow and brown, that is certain. Any idea?

 

I'm perusing photos of Molly.  If you're talking about the striped sweater and the checked blouse, I agree -- so she's presumably not an Autumn.  On the other hand, I thought she looked nice at the wedding in that yellow dress -- so maybe a Spring?

 

Of course, considering that in real life, LB is presumably slathered with makeup when they film, and they can also play games with the colors after filming, so who can tell what colors actually complement her skin tones?  And of course being awfully pretty allows her to look nicer in inappropriate colors than would otherwise be the case.

[Arcadia]

Coral looks nice on her, I think. And white. I quite loved that sunny yellow thing she was wearing at the wedding, but that's probably not her best color. Periwinkle, maybe?

[Shadow Dweller]

She's what, warm spring? How about navy?

[Arcadia]

Maybe, if it's not too dark a navy.

[Shadow Dweller]

This one ^^

 

http://www.luulla.com/product/739275/dark-blue-tulle-organza-off-shoulder-a-line-long-prom-dresses-tulle-prom-dress-long-prom-dress-ev

[Arcadia]

The color, you mean? Maybe, although I think I'd prefer something a little brighter on her. The style's too young for her.

 

Are you making doll clothes?