Molly Hooper

[gerry]

TEH is the one episode I remembered him being nice to her and I think the hallway scene would probably be the best of the options from that episode. I was actually very suprised by that episode when I watched it initially because I hadn't believed he thought much of Molly before.

 

Giving credit to Sherlock for anything in TFP seems so wrong.... that's like giving him credit for apologizing in ASIB when he wouldn't have had to apologize if he didn't deduce her to begin with. He never would have said ILY if Molly didn't make him and Molly only made him because Sherlock was humiliating her so it's really hard to know what to take from that anyway.

 

If that's the best there is, that's not saying much if you list all of the jackass things he's said to her next to it. I think I will just have to agree to disagree with you. If his jackass moments towards her were more isolated than common I think I could but they just aren't.

[Arcadia]

True, but you could also say that about the way he treats every other character in the show. So why single out Molly?

[gerry]

His jackass moments towards Mrs. H, and Mary were isolated and honestly not that bad. For Mrs. H it was what, shut up? For Mary, honestly I've only seen her episodes once (well, HLV, TSOT and T6T anyway) but I remember him being nice to her immediately in TEH and I can't think of anything insulting, even after she shot him. I was actually suprised by that because he was usually rude to John's other girlfriends. Hell he pretty much defended her to John when it was revealed she was a liar assassin while blaming it on John's love of danger. For John, I can't think of anything specific but I know there are several but there's also the roof scene in TRF, the never ending best man speech, even Sherlock's apology in HOB. The John/Sherlock friendship is definitely the most balanced on the show because they both give and take the good and bad which makes sense because it's the relationship the writers obviously explored and value the most. Maybe the simplest way to say is to ask was there an equivalent harshness of the xmas scene with Mrs. H, Lestrade, John or Mary or am I forgetting one?

 

I do know that his comments on weight is not specific to Molly. He likes to comment on Mycroft's weight as well and I think he said something about John's weight in HLV if I'm not mistaken. However, if you took all the scenes between Sherlock and the other recurring characters, the ones with Molly and Lestrade likely have the most consistent insults relative to the amount of scenes they're in.

[Shadow Dweller]

"Motherhood slowed you down."

"Pig."

 

That's a banter common between men, they insult each other but rarely means malice with it. Women on the other hand, tends to talk sweet but actually poisonous. Not all is like the second group, thank God. Of course, it also could means that there's possibility Sherlock actually sees Molly not as a woman-potential mate but as one of the 'men', aka platonic friends only.

[Arcadia]

I think that's been the implication throughout, and especially in TAB. Poor Molly, she wants more. And that's the way my brother and I banter, so to me it's more like Sherlock thinks he's Mary's brother. I rather love their relationship in T6T, actually. I get a kick out of the way they gang up on John, for some reason. Although I would have given my eyeteeth to have seen Mary and Molly become friends, and gang up on Sherlock. :d Probably not a scene a man knows how to write, eh?

[gerry]

...Of course, it also could means that there's possibility Sherlock actually sees Molly not as a woman-potential mate but as one of the 'men', aka platonic friends only.

TAB implies that but he also comments often on her body, how she dresses and make up she wears so that analogy never made much sense to me. He clearly recognizes her as a woman and sizes her up like one.

 

Just like the saying it takes two to tango, it takes two to banter.

 

I wonder if Sherlock has an underlying/unconscious anger or resentment towards Molly because she won't stay in the compartment Sherlock wants her in and his attitude towards her reflects that. He uses her feelings for him against her but also doesn't seem to like that they're there. He always resented Mycroft but respected him and their interactions always reflected that. That balance is missing from his attitude towards Molly.

[Shadow Dweller]

We are back to the lack of respect IMO, respect is a necessary foundation for all healthy relationship. If Sherlock doesn't have that to Molly and yet still keeping her around... *shakes head*

[Arcadia]

I don't think he's "keeping her around" ... she chooses to stay. IMO, he told her to "fly, be free" when he parted from her in TEH. And I think she tried, but it didn't work. Moth/flame.

 

I don't agree that he has no respect for her as a person. He admits even to himself that he doesn't appreciate her as a woman, but I don't find that to be the same thing.

[Shadow Dweller]

What is 'appreciating as a woman'? Bet it is her doormat - frightened/wary mouse attitude that irked him because that kind of thing is anathema to Sherlock the Mr. Independent himself. He respect people who choose to stand up for themselves and really means it.

[bedelia1984]

I think it is worth remembering that both Molly and Sherlock change as the show progresses- i.e. Molly stands up for herself more and Sherlock is kinder and more careful about the feelings of others by season 4

[gerry]

I don't think he's "keeping her around" ... she chooses to stay. IMO, he told her to "fly, be free" when he parted from her in TEH. And I think she tried, but it didn't work. Moth/flame.

 

I don't agree that he has no respect for her as a person. He admits even to himself that he doesn't appreciate her as a woman, but I don't find that to be the same thing.

Sherlock has initiated many interactions with her like using her as a bolthole. He likes having her around but only on his terms.

[Arcadia]

What is 'appreciating as a woman'? ...

Meaning, his ideal of womanhood, whatever that might be, is not represented by Molly. Moffat appears to think it's represented by Irene, which I suspect says more about Moffat than Sherlock. ;)

[Shadow Dweller]

@bedelia: And still she showed that attitude when Sherlock is going to John's house, the scene where Molly carried Rosie while talking to Sherlock. A 'victim' attitude do tends to incite urge for violence in certain people.

 

@Arcadia: Irene or Janine?

[Carol the Dabbler]

... he also comments often on her body, how she dresses and make up she wears so that analogy never made much sense to me. He clearly recognizes her as a woman and sizes her up like one.

He intellectually knows that she is a woman, so he uses hair, makeup, etc. as ways to manipulate her, at least in early episodes.  It was lipstick in "Study in Pink" and hair in "Blind Banker."  Have we heard any comments on her appearance since then?

 

But that doesn't mean that he reacts to her in that way.  That would be hormonal, not intellectual.

[bedelia1984]

@bedelia: And still she showed that attitude when Sherlock is going to John's house, the scene where Molly carried Rosie while talking to Sherlock. A 'victim' attitude do tends to incite urge for violence in certain people.

 

 

I had a different read on that scene, I actually found Molly a bit cold and distant to Sherlock, almost as if she shared John's feelings about him being responsible for Mary's death. In TST she seemed quite bossy with Sherlock and at the start of the phone call a bit dismissive. Overall in season 4 I thought they portrayed her (or the actress did) as having just about had enough of Sherlock.

[Shadow Dweller]

*grins* You are heart and I am mind in this aspect. Chalk the perspectives to our different temperaments.

[gerry]

 

... he also comments often on her body, how she dresses and make up she wears so that analogy never made much sense to me. He clearly recognizes her as a woman and sizes her up like one.

He intellectually knows that she is a woman, so he uses hair, makeup, etc. as ways to manipulate her, at least in early episodes. It was lipstick in "Study in Pink" and hair in "Blind Banker." Have we heard any comments on her appearance since then?

 

But that doesn't mean that he reacts to her in that way. That would be hormonal, not intellectual.

Also in the xmas scene is ASIB. Can't remember similar body comments after that. I think the implication was that he learned not to from having to say forgive me. He moved on to other things to tweak her after that.

 

Just because you're not attracted to someone of the opposite sex doesn't mean you don't recognize them as such. That's the part of the analogy that didn't make sense. Like showing her as a man wasn't necessary to explain he's not attracted to her.

[gerry]

Overall in season 4 I thought they portrayed her (or the actress did) as having just about had enough of Sherlock.

That would be interesting if the show went there like what if she did end their friendship? What would sherlocks reaction be?

[bedelia1984]

 

Overall in season 4 I thought they portrayed her (or the actress did) as having just about had enough of Sherlock.

That would be interesting if the show went there like what if she did end their friendship? What would sherlocks reaction be?

That's a question that would have been interesting to tackle on the show and perhaps less artificial than the events of TFP.

[gerry]

 

 

Overall in season 4 I thought they portrayed her (or the actress did) as having just about had enough of Sherlock.

That would be interesting if the show went there like what if she did end their friendship? What would sherlocks reaction be?

That's a question that would have been interesting to tackle on the show and perhaps less artificial than the events of TFP.

Agreed. He was miffed when she didn't answer initially knowing it was him calling so I can only imagine his reaction if she was like I'm done with this and actually changed the rules of engagement. I think it would really anger him actually. Or what if she remained friends with John because she's godmother to Rosie. That would annoy Sherlock even more.

[Carol the Dabbler]

... showing her as a man wasn't necessary to explain he's not attracted to her.

 

Do you think that's why she masqueraded as a man in TAB?  Interesting.  I've just assumed that Sherlock's subconscious couldn't figure out any other way she could hold that job in Victorian England (and I suspect he's reasonably correct).

[bedelia1984]

 

... showing her as a man wasn't necessary to explain he's not attracted to her.

 

Do you think that's why she masqueraded as a man in TAB?  Interesting.  I've just assumed that Sherlock's subconscious couldn't figure out any other way she could hold that job in Victorian England (and I suspect he's reasonably correct).

 

 

I thought that too- I even wondered in advance if they would have her pretend to be a man.

 

But also, I think the Molly as a man device worked really well in TAB, because they have previously alluded to Molly having this characteristic where she is like the wallpaper, largely going unnoticed by Sherlock, and I think it is a good metaphor for the way he didn't really notice her until TRF, when suddenly he realised how much she perceived about him, how much she counted and how important she could be to his plan. And I don't mean to say that she's unimportant in comparing her to the wallpaper, but rather that she's always been there, and had the same qualities and relevance, but it takes a long time for him to notice and acknowledge it. In a way for me his finally noticing her in TAB was more an echo of that, than a statement of how or whether he saw her as a woman.

[Arcadia]

@bedelia: And still she showed that attitude when Sherlock is going to John's house, the scene where Molly carried Rosie while talking to Sherlock. A 'victim' attitude do tends to incite urge for violence in certain people.

 

@Arcadia: Irene or Janine?

 

Irene.

 

 

Overall in season 4 I thought they portrayed her (or the actress did) as having just about had enough of Sherlock.

That would be interesting if the show went there like what if she did end their friendship? What would sherlocks reaction be?

 

 

Much the same as his reaction to Janine's departure, I suspect. A little sadness, a little remorse, a little guilt ... but in the end, no less than he expected.

 

 

... showing her as a man wasn't necessary to explain he's not attracted to her.

 

Do you think that's why she masqueraded as a man in TAB?  Interesting.  I've just assumed that Sherlock's subconscious couldn't figure out any other way she could hold that job in Victorian England (and I suspect he's reasonably correct).

 

 

I'm of two minds ... part of me thinks The Moftisses were attempting to compliment her by having Sherlock imagining Molly to be so capable, that even in Victorian times she would have been the best pathologist in London -- even if she had to disguise herself as a man to do it.

 

But when she reveals herself at the end, there's a sense that he realizes he has disregarded her value as a woman in favor of appreciating her value as a scientist, and that has hurt her. To him, she wants to be both. It's very complicated; by doing her the honor of saying her gender doesn't matter, she has been denied the honor of her gender. I'm not sure if they intended that, but it's what I got out of it.

[bedelia1984]

...

I'm of two minds ... part of me thinks The Moftisses were attempting to compliment her by having Sherlock imagining Molly to be so capable, that even in Victorian times she would have been the best pathologist in London -- even if she had to disguise herself as a man to do it.

 

But when she reveals herself at the end, there's a sense that he realizes he has disregarded her value as a woman in favor of appreciating her value as a scientist, and that has hurt her. To him, she wants to be both. It's very complicated; by doing her the honor of saying her gender doesn't matter, she has been denied the honor of her gender. I'm not sure if they intended that, but it's what I got out of it.

 

 

Yes, it is sort of a dubious compliment, isn't it, especially when Moffat is involved (with his checkered past of dealing with women characters)?

 

All those aspects you mention about gender only make me like it more because it is so complex and intangible and fits really well with how BC performs in his scenes with Molly. I can't help but compare that with TFP and feel that TAB was so much more sophisticated emotionally, even if it was just a bit of fun (and guilty of a very hairy take on feminism).

 

Of course I also like it because it does single Molly out- the other women are in their ways all kept outside that ACD-era world, whereas she has somehow managed to infiltrate it. It was such a fun way to include her character.

[gerry]

 

... showing her as a man wasn't necessary to explain he's not attracted to her.

 

Do you think that's why she masqueraded as a man in TAB? Interesting. I've just assumed that Sherlock's subconscious couldn't figure out any other way she could hold that job in Victorian England (and I suspect he's reasonably correct).

Honestly yours is likely more reasonable. Given that supposedly TAB is about Sherlock acknowledging how poorly he treats the women in his life (according to Moffat), I more interpreted his not knowing she's a man by how little he paid attention to her not to notice. It could also be the show reflecting Shadow's interpretation of how Sherlock sees Molly as one of the guys because he's not attracted to her. My only point is if TAB is a reflection of that interpretation, she didn't need to be a man to accomplish that.

 

 

That would be interesting if the show went there like what if she did end their friendship? What would sherlocks reaction be?

Much the same as his reaction to Janine's departure, I suspect. A little sadness, a little remorse, a little guilt ... but in the end, no less than he expected.

It's interesting that you feel that way when you also believe that Sherlock loves Molly. If he wouldn't care anymore than he did about Janine then how much can he love Molly?

 

....fits really well with how BC performs in his scenes with Molly.

What do you mean by this?