Molly Hooper

[gerry]

They've seen each other since, of course, but it is left ambiguous as to how they have come back to being on good terms.

Exactly. This is the resolution I'm talking about and I care about it from the Molly character's POV, not whether they are together romantically which I don't care about. I fail to see why she would want to be friends with him under the circumstances. This is why I'm not sure how the montage resolves anything from any POV.

 

I don't know how they could make the significance more clear, than by positioning it in the final half of the final (possibly ever) episode right before he has an emotional breakdown.

That assumes the breakdown was due to Molly which I'm not convinced is true, more it was due to Eurus manipulating him than anything.

 

well actually I'm going to give a relationship a try and Irene's the one for me

I wasn't expecting that. I actually don't think he will ever be shown with anyone which is why I find the endless teasing of the multiple possibilities so annoying. Since Molly is one of my favorite characters, it annoys me that all she's reduced to is to tease a romantic possibility for Sherlock that will never happen anyway. I wish it would be moved along rather than strung along.

 

I can't agree, he has shamelessly flirted with Molly, not to mention telling her she mattered to him, among other things and he's gone out of his way to be the hero for Irene.

He flirted with Molly to get into the lab, not to be a faux boyfriend/fiancé like in the Janine case and Irene was shown as infatuated/intrigued with Sherlock before she even met him if that hand over the newspaper/discussion with her companion/conspiring with Moriarty about him were intended to be hints. Also, the she mattered to him was only said after she helped him fake his death but she was shown as infatuated with Sherlock long before that, in the first episode.

[gerry]

Maybe they decided to change the scene because they didn't really know what to do with Molly beside Sherlock, Microft and John in the prison afterwards. She would have played a side role in the following events.

Moffat didn't specifically say why they agreed to change the scene, only that nobody in the production team liked the scene as originally written except Moffat/Gatiss.

[bedelia1984]

I got the impression the original scene was written a bit ham-fistedly and had to be changed.

 

I still cringe imagining Molly being locked in a coffin in that episode. There is something so literal and lacking in subtlety about it, that had they left it in I think I would have disliked the episode.

 

For the record, I wanted more Molly and more interesting things for her too. She needs a spin off! 

[gerry]

What I wonder about is whether the coffin smashing was already in the script or was added after it was changed to an ILY call? That would really confirm whether the writers really intended it to be about Molly or something else.

 

I got the impression the coffin scene/puzzle would have been more like the garrideb room test with Sherlock being more muted/unaffected but the production team thought it lacked heart if Molly was the one in peril so they changed it.

[SanaB]

Well I think the smashed coffin was about Molly but it was also about himself. Molly was the trigger to set his emotions free, like a door to his obressed subconciousness. Eurus said it right: "Look what you've done to her, Look what you've done to yourself".

[gerry]

Ive said this before. He was fine right after the call though. It wasn't until Eurus said you lost and he realizes Eurus tricked him that he began to lose control of his emotions. Then again, I have a hard time believing he loves her given how little respect he shows her because I don't think you can love someone you don't respect. He was mocking her concern just in the preceding episode. He shows Mrs. Hudson, Mary, Irene and even Janine at the end more respect than he shows Molly and I mean that through dialogue and attitude. I just don't understand his attitude towards her relative to others the majority of the time which is why I think the ILY lacks impact for me rather than see it the way you do.

[Arcadia]

I disagree. He closes his eyes in dismay when he realizes it's Molly who's under threat. His breathing becomes elevated, his eyes shift around during the call. He bitches when she doesn't pick up the phone right away. His voice starts to climb, Eurus has to remind him to speak calmly. He gives a big sigh of relief when Molly finally says the words. I.e., his emotions were getting away from his iron control, in a way that they did not in the first two rooms. Then Eurus tells him that he revealed all these emotions needlessly, and that's when the cork popped. But the pressure had been building all along.

[SanaB]

Not to forget, Microft looked alarmed when Molly wanted Sherlock to say it first. It alarmed him, he must have known this weak side of Sherlock and he must have sensed what was coming.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Late to the discussion, sounds fun.

 

I disagree. He closes his eyes in dismay when he realizes it's Molly who's under threat. His breathing becomes elevated, his eyes shift around during the call. He bitches when she doesn't pick up the phone right away. His voice starts to climb, Eurus has to remind him to speak calmly. He gives a big sigh of relief when Molly finally says the words. I.e., his emotions were getting away from his iron control, in a way that they did not in the first two rooms. Then Eurus tells him that he revealed all these emotions needlessly, and that's when the cork popped. But the pressure had been building all along.

And THIS.

Can't say it better.

Most time, showing is much better than telling. There are actings and expositions without words. That's why I love that scene so much.

 

 

 

Welcome SanaB,

I like your take about Sherlock being weaker than Molly on the way they handle feelings. I think it's really true, and people who dare to take a leap of faith in unreliable human emotion roller coaster are brave.

To me, it is also his method for self protection, and when one needs exoskeleton, it's because whatever inside is too tender and easily damaged.

 

I also agree with you about Molly being someone different to Sherlock compared to others.

Imho, Sherlock knows that too. She is the only person he had shown any vulnerabilities to.

In front of John and others, he always tries to be strong, smart, reliable and he tries to maintain uncaring unaffected facades.

But with Molly, he wants to show his fears and his worries. Initially, nope, but when he realized that Molly could read him the way noone else could, he actually.. I don't know what is the better way to say it, he actually feels safe around her and he trusts her with his life. He trusts John with his life too, but to Molly, he also trusts her with his actual self, that I don't remember anyone else knows.

[Artemis]

Wasn't sure whether to put this here or in the patterns thread, but there's a pattern in the show of everyone else miscalculating Molly's importance to Sherlock.  Not that they can be blamed for that, since he's so callous and snide with her sometimes.  But only he himself (and apparently Eurus) seems to know that she matters to him.

TRF: Molly says she's doesn't count.  Sherlock seems caught off guard by this.
TRF/TEH: Molly fails to register on Moriarty's radar as someone Sherlock cares about.  Sherlock anticipates this and seeks her help.
TLD: John refers to Molly as the last person Sherlock would think of.  But *doorbell rings*, Sherlock has thought of her, after all.

I just think it's sort of interesting that it's everyone else who forgets that he remembers her.

 

 

[SanaB]

@ Van Buren Supernova:


Thank you for the welcome! I find it best to see Molly's strength in the scene, where she told Sherlock that he looked sad when John did not look. She offered him help. Sherlock must have been very shocked at her observation. Otherwise he is the one who sees everything and registers every little detail. And now there is a woman who has caught him. Caught by a thing he hides so much from others. In this point, concerning observation skills Molly is an emotional Sherlock! ;) 

And the most surprising thing for me was how he reacted. He was not alarmed, he allowed it. Other people would perceive someone like Molly as a threat; no one wants to be vulnerable. But maybe Sherlock was not aware of his own blocking. When it comes to others, he is a true genius in observing, but he is blind to himself.

Molly is definitely a person who appeals to something in him. The scene in Begravia changed the relationship between the two. Just at the point where Molly spoke openly to him. He immediately felt shame, which he is not used to. And respect. I wondered why he was so mean to her in this scene. And I think at this time he did not trust her completely, since he did not know her well enough yet and saw her as someone who could get too close to his blockade. Molly touches something in him ... and he knows that. 

We have only seen a small part in TFP. The part that tells us that Sherlock has opened the door to his emotions. Sherlock must first learn how to work up, process and deal with them. That would be really exciting when they make a new season. He cannot simply close the access to his emotions again and live as before, he will not be able to do that.

 

[Arcadia]

Welcome SanaB,

I like your take about Sherlock being weaker than Molly on the way they handle feelings. I think it's really true, and people who dare to take a leap of faith in unreliable human emotion roller coaster are brave.

To me, it is also his method for self protection, and when one needs exoskeleton, it's because whatever inside is too tender and easily damaged.

 

I also agree with you about Molly being someone different to Sherlock compared to others.

Imho, Sherlock knows that too. She is the only person he had shown any vulnerabilities to.

In front of John and others, he always tries to be strong, smart, reliable and he tries to maintain uncaring unaffected facades.

But with Molly, he wants to show his fears and his worries. Initially, nope, but when he realized that Molly could read him the way noone else could, he actually.. I don't know what is the better way to say it, he actually feels safe around her and he trusts her with his life. He trusts John with his life too, but to Molly, he also trusts her with his actual self, that I don't remember anyone else knows.

 

Well, Janine said she did. I've always wondered what Janine thought she knew that no one else did.

 

Wasn't sure whether to put this here or in the patterns thread, but there's a pattern in the show of everyone else miscalculating Molly's importance to Sherlock.  Not that they can be blamed for that, since he's so callous and snide with her sometimes.  But only he himself (and apparently Eurus) seems to know that she matters to him.

 

And Mycroft, apparently, if I read his reaction correctly in TFP.

 

TRF: Molly says she's doesn't count.  Sherlock seems caught off guard by this.

TRF/TEH: Molly fails to register on Moriarty's radar as someone Sherlock cares about.  Sherlock anticipates this and seeks her help.

TLD: John refers to Molly as the last person Sherlock would think of.  But *doorbell rings*, Sherlock has thought of her, after all.

 

That's interesting. You'd think it would be John, his best friend, who plays that role. But John seems to have established early on an image of who he thinks Sherlock is (or wants him to be?) and appears to have trouble moving on from that to seeing the real person. 

 

@ Van Buren Supernova:

 

Thank you for the welcome! I find it best to see Molly's strength in the scene, where she told Sherlock that he looked sad when John did not look. She offered him help. Sherlock must have been very shocked at her observation. Otherwise he is the one who sees everything and registers every little detail. And now there is a woman who has caught him. Caught by a thing he hides so much from others. In this point, concerning observation skills Molly is an emotional Sherlock! ;)

And the most surprising thing for me was how he reacted. He was not alarmed, he allowed it. Other people would perceive someone like Molly as a threat; no one wants to be vulnerable. But maybe Sherlock was not aware of his own blocking. When it comes to others, he is a true genius in observing, but he is blind to himself.

Molly is definitely a person who appeals to something in him. The scene in Begravia changed the relationship between the two. Just at the point where Molly spoke openly to him. He immediately felt shame, which he is not used to. And respect. I wondered why he was so mean to her in this scene. And I think at this time he did not trust her completely, since he did not know her well enough yet and saw her as someone who could get too close to his blockade. Molly touches something in him ... and he knows that.

We have only seen a small part in TFP. The part that tells us that Sherlock has opened the door to his emotions. Sherlock must first learn how to work up, process and deal with them. That would be really exciting when they make a new season. He cannot simply close the access to his emotions again and live as before, he will not be able to do that.

Agree to all that.

 

Maybe it's because Molly's demonstrated that she won't use his feelings against him? Unlike Mycroft and Moriarty. Hmmm. Have to think about that. Again, you'd think John would be the one to play that role, but Sherlock protects himself from John's prying too. Hmm.

 

What about Mary? She saw through Sherlock's lies pretty easily, but I also thought she underestimated what he was actually capable of. Although in the end she was proven (fatally) right, so maybe she estimated him just right? Hmmmmm.

[SanaB]

IMO Mary knew that there is a hidden emotional side of Sherlock. But she didn't saw it as her business to open him up more. For her it was enough to just like him, she had other duties.

 

I can't remember what you mean with Janine, Arcadia. Did she say something to Sherlock about Molly?

[Boton]

IMO Mary knew that there is a hidden emotional side of Sherlock. But she didn't saw it as her business to open him up more. For her it was enough to just like him, she had other duties.

 

I can't remember what you mean with Janine, Arcadia. Did she say something to Sherlock about Molly?

 

I think she's referring to Janine saying something like, "don't forget, I'm the only one who knows what you're really like, remember?" And Sherlock says, "don't go letting on."

 

I know this isn't the Janine thread (or the John thread), but I think they *all* know a piece of what he's really like.  John knows a side of Sherlock that no one else can know, but, as was very astutely reasoned above, so does Molly, and people tend to not immediately realize the depth of what she knows and the uniqueness of the Sherlock-Molly relationship.  I think Janine learned something about Sherlock no one else knows, too.  I don't know quite what (well, I have my thoughts, but wrong thread), but she does have a piece of him.  Put these all together, and we have the lovely scene at the end of TFP which is Sherlock surrounded by people who each understand and accept a facet of him, and together, that's all of him.  You can't really do that without Molly in the picture in some way.

[Arcadia]

Yep, that's what I meant, thanks B!

[SanaB]

Maybe Sherlock made Janine just believe she knew something. She should believe that they were a couple, that was part of his plan. And giving her the feeling made her feel special and unique. Sherlock is a good actor if he wants to.

[Van Buren Supernova]

That's interesting. You'd think it would be John, his best friend, who plays that role. But John seems to have established early on an image of who he thinks Sherlock is (or wants him to be?) and appears to have trouble moving on from that to seeing the real person.

Yes. That is the problem with John.

Something I find endearing at some occasions and suffocating at others.

I believe that is the reason why Sherlock doesn't really open up with John, but he does acknowledge John for bringing up the good sides of him, or at least makes him sees thing differently, although it's always continuous learning curve.

 

For Mary, I think she understands Sherlock's weird side, the quirkiness, his coldness, brilliance and understands his reasons to do many things he did, including TRF.

 

Janine probably understands the reasons why Sherlock chooses to lead the life he is leading, that he feels normalcy is out of his reach and not something sustainable for him.

 

However, imho, Molly understands the deepest reasons beyond all those; his vulnerability, his fear, his reluctance to appear weak or surrender to things that may incapacitate him. He wants and has been so desperately trying to build up his armor, but in actual, he is just too scared to be disappointed, by things he knows too well that are not reliable; feelings, attachments, compassions, affections.

That is why he always claims to be a sociopath, that is what he wants to be, but no, he is not, and he tries to kill that. And Molly sees that.

[gerry]

However, imho, Molly understands the deepest reasons beyond all those; his vulnerability, his fear, his reluctance to appear weak or surrender to things that may incapacitate him. He wants and has been so desperately trying to build up his armor, but in actual, he is just too scared to be disappointed, by things he knows too well that are not reliable; feelings, attachments, compassions, affections.

That is why he always claims to be a sociopath, that is what he wants to be, but no, he is not, and he tries to kill that. And Molly sees that.

Are you inferring all of this through the "are you okay" conversation in TRF?

[Boton]

 

Janine probably understands the reasons why Sherlock chooses to lead the life he is leading, that he feels normalcy is out of his reach and not something sustainable for him.

 

However, imho, Molly understands the deepest reasons beyond all those; his vulnerability, his fear, his reluctance to appear weak or surrender to things that may incapacitate him. He wants and has been so desperately trying to build up his armor, but in actual, he is just too scared to be disappointed, by things he knows too well that are not reliable; feelings, attachments, compassions, affections.

That is why he always claims to be a sociopath, that is what he wants to be, but no, he is not, and he tries to kill that. And Molly sees that.

 

 

I agree with both of these.  I think Sherlock had some moments of honesty and connection with Janine, and she saw more than maybe he first intended.  I also think she comes the closest to understanding him sexually.  (And, again, wrong thread to expand on that.)

 

I totally agree with the Molly analysis.  Molly really has the "best friend" perspective on Sherlock in a way that even John doesn't.  It may even go back to first meetings.  John was initially amazed by Sherlock.  We don't know how Sherlock and Molly met exactly (although probably at Barts in some way), but she may have known him first as arrogant and putting up a front.  She may also have known him from a bit of a younger age, which can give an added perspective.

[Boton]

BTW:  Mods, do we have a Janine thread?  I looked, but I will admit my search-fu on this forum is not the best, and I may have missed it.  I'd like to take the Janine discussion there.

[Arcadia]

 

That's interesting. You'd think it would be John, his best friend, who plays that role. But John seems to have established early on an image of who he thinks Sherlock is (or wants him to be?) and appears to have trouble moving on from that to seeing the real person.

Yes. That is the problem with John.

Something I find endearing at some occasions and suffocating at others.

 

Yeah, I agree. And so does Sherlock, I think.

 

Interesting how S4 has sort of turned my reading of John's character into something else. I didn't buy the whole "addicted to danger" bit in S3, but they've done a nice job in S4, imo, of lightly unravelling John to where I find it more believable now. There's a hard side there that was always cushioned before by humor. From a narrative p.o.v., I rather like the change ... makes him more unpredictable.

 

 

 

I totally agree with the Molly analysis.  Molly really has the "best friend" perspective on Sherlock in a way that even John doesn't.  It may even go back to first meetings.  John was initially amazed by Sherlock.  We don't know how Sherlock and Molly met exactly (although probably at Barts in some way), but she may have known him first as arrogant and putting up a front.  She may also have known him from a bit of a younger age, which can give an added perspective.

 

 

I always think the scene in ASiP is the first time they met. Or Molly would've already known better than to come on to him like that, wouldn't she?

 

BTW:  Mods, do we have a Janine thread?  I looked, but I will admit my search-fu on this forum is not the best, and I may have missed it.  I'd like to take the Janine discussion there.

 

Yep, right here: http://www.sherlockforum.com/forum/topic/2615-janine/

[Artemis]

I always think the scene in ASiP is the first time they met. Or Molly would've already known better than to come on to him like that, wouldn't she?

I can't be sure, but I think I remember hearing Moftiss say in some documentary interview somewhere that ASiP was their first meeting.

[SanaB]

Something we still have no knowledge about are the two years of his faked death. Molly mentioned that Sherlock stayed at her place several times. Would be worth to know how they "lived" together ;)

[Artemis]

Well we know he was busy taking down Moriarty's network and in Serbia at least part of the time, so I doubt they lived together much if at all.

[gerry]

If ASIP was the first meeting, so watching Sherlock flog a corpse was a turn on for Molly? That's both funny and strange.