Molly Hooper

[gerry]

I think it is worth remembering that both Molly and Sherlock change as the show progresses- i.e. Molly stands up for herself more and Sherlock is kinder and more careful about the feelings of others by season 4

How do you consider Sherlock kinder and more careful about the feelings of others by before or in Season 4?

[bedelia1984]

What do you mean by this?

I think BC plays the relationship in quite a nuanced way, so what Arcadia says about that conflict between whether the professional respect is an honour or a conscious way of dismissing Molly as a woman, and lots of other interpretations are all possible at once. BC tends to go between sensitive and angry quite quickly with Molly- in TFP this is accelerated but it is also visible in the transition between TEH where he is quite noble and ready to let her go for good, to the wedding where he seems to get some pleasure showing up her fiancé, to hostile in the scene where she slaps him in HLV (but then in his mind palace she's helping save him)

 

I think it is worth remembering that both Molly and Sherlock change as the show progresses- i.e. Molly stands up for herself more and Sherlock is kinder and more careful about the feelings of others by season 4

How do you consider Sherlock kinder and more careful about the feelings of others by before or in Season 4?

I think the best example is Faith because he shows her a lot of kindness from the beginning more so than with previous clients. There is also his scene with John where he talks about being human. And also on the phone with Molly in TFP, he visibly is concerned, and he tries to be kind too.

[Arcadia]

To me the change was in TRF, when he says "you can see me" ... and I've thought that's where he is actually seeing her for the first time, as a real person, not as a "timid mouse." He realizes she has an insight that his other acquaintances do not. He even starts to take her up on her offer of crisps, until she shuts him down (oh, Molly, always moving away from him just as he's moving towards you ... ) He's more careful with her after that. He's not perfect at it, but he tries, unlike before then.

 

John, on the other hand ... his best friend ... he continues to put through hell. I'm trying to think where he's being "kind" to John in .... any season, really. Yet I don't doubt his affection for John.

 

I'm interested in the baptism scene in T6T ... there's an easiness between Sherlock and Molly that wasn't there before. I'd like to have seen how they got to that point, given that the last interaction between them that we saw was her smacking him in the face.

 

ETA ... oh, and yeah, I love how he is with Faith.

[gerry]

 

What do you mean by this?

I think BC plays the relationship in quite a nuanced way, so what Arcadia says about that conflict between whether the professional respect is an honour or a conscious way of dismissing Molly as a woman, and lots of other interpretations are all possible at once. BC tends to go between sensitive and angry quite quickly with Molly....

The latter is probably in a nutshell what I don't like about Sherlock's attitude. I also wonder if acting deliberately to have multiple interpretations is a good thing in the long run (in any form of entertainment really)?

 

John, on the other hand ... his best friend ... he continues to put through hell. I'm trying to think where he's being "kind" to John in .... any season, really. Yet I don't doubt his affection for John

In just about every episode there's a scene that conveys Sherlock's appreciation/love of John. In ASIP, he respects John as an army doctor along with his related experiences and that John saved his life at the end; in TGG, he sends his "best man" to investigate Mycroft's case and he was visibly touched by John's attempt to save his life when he was strapped to the bomb with Moriarty at the end; in HOB, he told John he was Sherlcok's only friend when he was apologizing; in TFP, it was the rooftop scene; in TEH, the scene in his flat, he rushed his parents out because he was so happy to see John and finally genuinely apologized for lying; in TSOT, the best man speech, in TLD, "saving John" and the end scene; in TFP, "that's why he stays!" And his refusal to sacrifice John in the John vs Mycroft test. I'm sure there are more but those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

[Shadow Dweller]

*giggles* Someone please teach Sherlock how to tame his blogger's tendency for physical violence as way to resolve problems between them. That's why JohnLock is not to be in my eyes.

[gerry]

Well in johns defense Sherlock generally did something to legitimately make him angry like in TEH. TLD was not good though.

[bedelia1984]

 

 

What do you mean by this?

I think BC plays the relationship in quite a nuanced way, so what Arcadia says about that conflict between whether the professional respect is an honour or a conscious way of dismissing Molly as a woman, and lots of other interpretations are all possible at once. BC tends to go between sensitive and angry quite quickly with Molly....

The latter is probably in a nutshell what I don't like about Sherlock's attitude. I also wonder if acting deliberately to have multiple interpretations is a good thing in the long run (in any form of entertainment really)?

 

 

I don't like the idea of a cop-out either, if that is how you mean it and I can see what you mean about it causing issues for the story. It really depends on whether they intend to leave things as they are or ever revisit the story with Molly. I don't know if the writers have decided on that one way or the other.

 

In defence of Sherlock himself, I don't know that he has a deliberate attitude with Molly of blowing hot and cold. He is always at his worst with her when he feels exposed- in Scandal, she's revealed his disappointment at John going away, in HLV he's been shown to be back on drugs- and that doesn't excuse his behaviour, but I think it does push him out of his comfort zone, which is when he's most likely to lash out. The phone call in TFP is that times a hundred, then, but at least he takes it out on the coffin rather than a human being.

 

As far as his difficulty with his own emotions and those of others go earlier in the series, we can also now view that through the lens of someone with PTSD of a sort from Eurus- that is going to effect his fight or flight response when he's feeling vulnerable- but I see it as something he made plenty of progress with before they made the big reveal.

[Arcadia]

 John, on the other hand ... his best friend ... he continues to put through hell. I'm trying to think where he's being "kind" to John in .... any season, really. Yet I don't doubt his affection for John

In just about every episode there's a scene that conveys Sherlock's appreciation/love of John. In ASIP, he respects John as an army doctor along with his related experiences and that John saved his life at the end; in TGG, he sends his "best man" to investigate Mycroft's case and he was visibly touched by John's attempt to save his life when he was strapped to the bomb with Moriarty at the end; in HOB, he told John he was Sherlcok's only friend when he was apologizing; in TFP, it was the rooftop scene; in TEH, the scene in his flat, he rushed his parents out because he was so happy to see John and finally genuinely apologized for lying; in TSOT, the best man speech, in TLD, "saving John" and the end scene; in TFP, "that's why he stays!" And his refusal to sacrifice John in the John vs Mycroft test. I'm sure there are more but those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

 

 

And yet, in your first five examples, I could easily make the case that that's just Sherlock manipulating John. It's only in season three that I feel like we begin to see the true heart of him ... although I'm not sure I would call any of your other examples "kindnesses" either. Acts of friendship, yes. But it's kindnesses we were discussing. Friendship is something different. Friends do all kinds of crap to each other, because they can ... friends understand the difference between real crap and just acting up. Which is what Sherlock usually does; act up.

[T.o.b.y]

I can't remember Sherlock ever doing something tangible for Molly on screen. All we see him "give" is a particular vulnerability, tenderness and openness that he only displays towards her. Maybe that's one reason why it's hard for her to let go of her crush, because he must make her feel that she's "special" to him. And she is, I think.

 

The relationships on Sherlock aren't really healthy, any of them. Not the big, important ones. Sherlock and John, John and Mary, Sherlock and Irene, Sherlock and Molly, Sherlock and his entire family... They're all f***ed up in some way. And I don't mind, because I don't feel as if the show pretends they are all fine and dandy and even romantic (like some franchises do). What we see are fairly realistic characters with a lot of baggage loving each other to the best of their ability. Like in real life. I like it.

 

I think even if he offered "going steady", Molly would refuse Sherlock because she knows he would not be good for her as a boyfriend, no matter how infatuated she is with him. At least I prefer to think she has that wisdom because I adore Molly.

[bedelia1984]

 

I'm interested in the baptism scene in T6T ... there's an easiness between Sherlock and Molly that wasn't there before. I'd like to have seen how they got to that point, given that the last interaction between them that we saw was her smacking him in the face.

 

ETA ... oh, and yeah, I love how he is with Faith.

 

Me too, I'd love to know how that small shift came about! I think this is what LB meant when she said that the show gave the feeling more was happening that wasn't being shown. But if only they could have showed a bit less of the killing off Mary story and a few more things about Molly.

 

 

 

The relationships on Sherlock aren't really healthy, any of them. Not the big, important ones. Sherlock and John, John and Mary, Sherlock and Irene, Sherlock and Molly, Sherlock and his entire family... They're all f***ed up in some way. And I don't mind, because I don't feel as if the show pretends they are all fine and dandy and even romantic (like some franchises do). What we see are fairly realistic characters with a lot of baggage loving each other to the best of their ability. Like in real life. I like it.

 

 

Totally agree with this- in TLD for example, the Sherlock/ John dynamic verges on disturbing, they way John treats him, but then in the broader context of the show we can find a kind of sense in it.

 

I can't remember Sherlock ever doing something tangible for Molly on screen. All we see him "give" is a particular vulnerability, tenderness and openness that he only displays towards her. Maybe that's one reason why it's hard for her to let go of her crush, because he must make her feel that she's "special" to him. And she is, I think.

 

The only thing that springs to mind is the crime-solving/ going for chips aspect of TEH. Though, even though Sherlock says he has asked for Molly's help to say thank you, I don't think that is the only reason. How come, when Lestrade asks what it is, he says  (Thanks Ariana Devere): 'Just giving it a go.'? I don't think he only asked for Molly's help because he thought she'd like it, I think he also thought he'd like working with her and/or wanted her company, and of course was missing John too. But he deliberately casts himself in a more noble light when talking to Molly and a more honest (from my view) one when talking to Greg. Or, maybe it was just that he wanted to bring in a time to thank Molly and used her question as a way in, as he was feeling a bit awkward as to how to thank her?

 

It might be a bit pointless trying to take any relationship and pick out single, kind, selfless acts- how can they exist, when the kindnesses you bestow on people tend to make them like you more, so there is always going to be some form of benefit to yourself? 

[Arcadia]

I can't remember Sherlock ever doing something tangible for Molly on screen. All we see him "give" is a particular vulnerability, tenderness and openness that he only displays towards her. Maybe that's one reason why it's hard for her to let go of her crush, because he must make her feel that she's "special" to him. And she is, I think.

 

The relationships on Sherlock aren't really healthy, any of them. Not the big, important ones. Sherlock and John, John and Mary, Sherlock and Irene, Sherlock and Molly, Sherlock and his entire family... They're all f***ed up in some way. And I don't mind, because I don't feel as if the show pretends they are all fine and dandy and even romantic (like some franchises do). What we see are fairly realistic characters with a lot of baggage loving each other to the best of their ability. Like in real life. I like it.

 

I think even if he offered "going steady", Molly would refuse Sherlock because she knows he would not be good for her as a boyfriend, no matter how infatuated she is with him. At least I prefer to think she has that wisdom because I adore Molly.

 

I don't know anymore. I used to think the same way ... that if they were in a relationship, Sherlock would destroy Molly unless he fundamentally changed, and I hoped she was wise enough to realize that. Her "I can't imagine why people think you're incapable of emotion" remark in T6T sort of pointed that way, I thought. But since the Norbury thing, when he's finally acknowledged his narcissism is unjustified ... maybe it could work? Just don't know. I know a narcissist can't change, but I'm not sure Sherlock really is one, or just acts like one when it suits him.

 

 

I can't remember Sherlock ever doing something tangible for Molly on screen. All we see him "give" is a particular vulnerability, tenderness and openness that he only displays towards her. Maybe that's one reason why it's hard for her to let go of her crush, because he must make her feel that she's "special" to him. And she is, I think.

 

The only thing that springs to mind is the crime-solving/ going for chips aspect of TEH. Though, even though Sherlock says he has asked for Molly's help to say thank you, I don't think that is the only reason. How come, when Lestrade asks what it is, he says  (Thanks Ariana Devere): 'Just giving it a go.'? I don't think he only asked for Molly's help because he thought she'd like it, I think he also thought he'd like working with her and/or wanted her company, and of course was missing John too. But he deliberately casts himself in a more noble light when talking to Molly and a more honest (from my view) one when talking to Greg. Or, maybe it was just that he wanted to bring in a time to thank Molly and used her question as a way in, as he was feeling a bit awkward as to how to thank her?

 

It might be a bit pointless trying to take any relationship and pick out single, kind, selfless acts- how can they exist, when the kindnesses you bestow on people tend to make them like you more, so there is always going to be some form of benefit to yourself? 

 

 

I don't think we should overlook what he put himself through in the "I love you" scene in TFP. Although I guess that's not really tangible either. But I think we were meant to believe what Eurus said ... he destroyed himself for Molly in that scene. Although I still think it would have destroyed him even more if he had let Molly die, so maybe it wasn't exactly a selfless act. But I think it was meant to be a significant one.

[bedelia1984]

 

...

 

I don't think we should overlook what he put himself through in the "I love you" scene in TFP. Although I guess that's not really tangible either. But I think we were meant to believe what Eurus said ... he destroyed himself for Molly in that scene. Although I still think it would have destroyed him even more if he had let Molly die, so maybe it wasn't exactly a selfless act. But I think it was meant to be a significant one.

 

That's true. I think I overlook that a bit because I'd much prefer if the story got to that place in a more organic way. If Eurus never meant Molly any physical harm, then her only aim with the phone call was to torture both of them emotionally. I'm still puzzled as to what she expected to learn or gain from that particular experiment. She knew they were close, she knew about Molly's crush... but what did she know about why this would prove so difficult for Sherlock? Did she think him less capable of compassion than he is? That doesn't make sense because when she met him, as Faith, she saw a glimpse of the best there is in him.

 

The weirdest part for me is, there is a sense in which that phone call is therapeutic for both Molly and Sherlock- it pushes them both to talk about something they might never have addressed, even if it damages their friendship, there is a catharsis involved- did Eurus intend that, or was that the surprise? In her other tasks, something like killing a stranger is a clear negative that would scar you for life, but in a way this is the opposite end of the scale- whether Molly and Sherlock remain friends or not, airing the truth was likely a good thing (and this is further proved by the end montage).

[Arcadia]

Yes, I've been puzzling over that too ... what was Eurus trying to do with that little scenario? With the whole series of trials, actually. I keep avoiding it, though, because I know it's going to take me a long time to think through it and I just don't have that kind of time right now. Arghhh.

[bedelia1984]

Of course I'd like to believe the suddenly popular fanfic trope of Eurus as sadist by day, love guru by night, but it's stretching believability even for me.

 

I sometimes think they just used Eurus as a fast forward button to cram two seasons into one... they knew the kinds of choices the characters would have made if they had time to show it, but due to lack of time and availability they just crammed it all into a series of disjointed set pieces crazy-glued together by her 'madness' which let them just about get away with it.

[gerry]

 

 

 

 

What do you mean by this?

I think BC plays the relationship in quite a nuanced way, so what Arcadia says about that conflict between whether the professional respect is an honour or a conscious way of dismissing Molly as a woman, and lots of other interpretations are all possible at once. BC tends to go between sensitive and angry quite quickly with Molly....

The latter is probably in a nutshell what I don't like about Sherlock's attitude. I also wonder if acting deliberately to have multiple interpretations is a good thing in the long run (in any form of entertainment really)?

I don't like the idea of a cop-out either, if that is how you mean it and I can see what you mean about it causing issues for the story.

I didn't mean it in the sense of a cop out, more like in the long run, if you leave everything ambiguous or up to interpretation then the characterization suffers because the audience can't be sure of who the character ultimately is.

 

In defence of Sherlock himself, I don't know that he has a deliberate attitude with Molly of blowing hot and cold. He is always at his worst with her when he feels exposed- in Scandal, she's revealed his disappointment at John going away,.....

In ASIB, he rolled his eyes as soon as he saw Molly come up the stairs so I'm not sure I'd link his attitude towards her to any exposure nor do I know why his complaining that John leaving would make him feel so exposed to be that much of a jackass.

[gerry]

I can't remember Sherlock ever doing something tangible for Molly on screen. All we see him "give" is a particular vulnerability, tenderness and openness that he only displays towards her.

When has Sherlock shown vulnerability and tenderness only to Molly? The only thing i can think of close to that is TRF and TEH but even in those I wouldn't describe that way.

 

I think even if he offered "going steady", Molly would refuse Sherlock because she knows he would not be good for her as a boyfriend, no matter how infatuated she is with him. At least I prefer to think she has that wisdom because I adore Molly.

I think Molly would jump at any chance Sherlock gave her for a romantic relationship without thinking about it.

[gerry]

It might be a bit pointless trying to take any relationship and pick out single, kind, selfless acts-...

I think you can assess a person's character based on not isolated single acts but on patterns of behavior.

[gerry]

I don't think we should overlook what he put himself through in the "I love you" scene in TFP. Although I guess that's not really tangible either. But I think we were meant to believe what Eurus said ... he destroyed himself for Molly in that scene. Although I still think it would have destroyed him even more if he had let Molly die, so maybe it wasn't exactly a selfless act. But I think it was meant to be a significant one.

When has Sherlock ever displayed enough empathy to believe he could be destroyed by what happens to someone else and how he did he put himself through anything? He humiliated Molly, not the other way around. Personally I think he didn't seem broken until after Eurus said "you lost" and he realized that she'd played him.

[bedelia1984]

...

I didn't mean it in the sense of a cop out, more like in the long run, if you leave everything ambiguous or up to interpretation then the characterization suffers because the audience can't be sure of who the character ultimately is.

 

Ah, I was thinking more in terms of it being non-commital as regards the overall direction the show was taking, with the characterisation as part of it, of course but I see your point too. 

 

 

In defence of Sherlock himself, I don't know that he has a deliberate attitude with Molly of blowing hot and cold. He is always at his worst with her when he feels exposed- in Scandal, she's revealed his disappointment at John going away,.....

In ASIB, he rolled his eyes as soon as he saw Molly come up the stairs so I'm not sure I'd link his attitude towards her to any exposure nor do I know why his complaining that John leaving would make him feel so exposed to be that much of a jackass.

 

It might just be me: Initially when he rolled his eyes, I thought it was because of how O.T.T. Christmassy Molly was when she turned up in contrast to his Grinch-like mood (did we know if it was Sherlock or John who invited her? At that point she knew Sherlock better and seemed to forget who John was, so not sure). Anyway, that seems forgivable if not very nice- she was wearing a christmas bow on her head at the time after all! (sorry, I can get behind most of Molly's fashion choices if I don't love them, but the bows as headwear thing is just too far for me).

 

And I thought he felt exposed in the sense that he was revealing how much he cared about having John with him, which for the person he was then would have been quite vexing, when he was busy portraying himself as a sociopath who shouldn't care one way or the other. Also, back them I think he saw himself as the one who would reveal things about people, and hated it a bit when there was something revealed about him. It's also another one of those 'wallpaper' moments where Sherlock perhaps hadn't realised not only how well Molly saw him but how much of himself he was giving away by feeling more unguarded around her than he did around others.

 

Just to add: there isn't any excuse for his behaviour, he really was a jackass and it was in no way justified.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Arcadia
removed background color to make the text easier to see

[gerry]

Is it a common British fashion to have a hat or something in your hair every time you dress up? They always put something in Molly's hair at special occasions. I really disliked the hairdo for the christening because it overwhelmed her head. Not a fan of bows either but at least it wasn't the size of her head! Her hat for the wedding wasn't so bad but i didn't like the dress or the yellow, way too loud for my taste.

[bedelia1984]

Not a common British fashion! I feel like the Christmas one was a present bow and the wedding yellow ribbon screamed Easter egg. I wish they would leave her hair alone just once.

[gerry]

Agreed.

[J.P.]

Yes, Sherlock behaved terribly, but it's also the scene

when I can relate to his behaviour completely. <- because we are dragging the topic through all possible threads.

 

IMO he didn't really realized that Molly has a crush on him untill he deducted it, thinking he's deducing Molly's crush on someone else.

But:

There is no way he didn't see it (maybe without observing ;)), but he pushed the possibility away to the level of complete denial (been there, done this). A part of his mind surely noticed it though.

 

And now I think of one (more) of the reasons he doesn't like her coming: maybe he thought the person who organized the party (probably John) invited her as an attempt to hook her up with him. Which is annoying as hell. The whole bs with the mistletoe… <_<

[gerry]

Even if the present wasn't for him and it was for some other guy, it wouldn't have made what he said about her body and how she was dressed any better.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Sorry to jump in late regarding Sherlock and Molly and about those respect, love, stuffs..etc..

 

Imo, I don't think Molly is a pushover. It takes someone significantly strong to be where she is and to do what she does although that doesn't prove much to my statement without knowing her more (which we don't have the luxury of).

 

She is manipulated by Sherlock, I don't argue with that, but I think she knows she is manipulated to a certain degree. And yes, that is not healthy, and ideally, it shouldn't happen. But I'd say feelings do stupid things and make someone stupid, in a way. Those damn dopamine, serotonin, oxytocin busybodies rule the function of the brain and most of the time mess it up. I think most people can relate to it, romantic or not romantic way, we tend to do stupid things for people that we love or care about. Heart and brain just don't agree often, because what is good to one maybe harmful to another, it's almost textbook imo.

 

On Sherlock, whether he respects her, I'd say he does, more obviously counting S3 and up. I wouldn't be able to provide a lot of examples, I think many had been provided anyway and I couldn't articulate as well as those that had been said. In my mind, things are not always what it seems.

 

Sorry I have to relate it to myself, don't have better way to explain it. I see John and Molly's friendship to Sherlock as a bit (quite a lot) smoothering. I know, I know, they care about him and wants him well, all those. I had given a lot of examples regarding John in other threads, him wanting Sherlock to be a hero, a better man, hold up to higher standard, those. Smoothering! And Molly, she slapped Sherlock.

 

Again, I understand their intention. Good and well. It takes a level up or more than ordinary friend to make them care about you that way. It's something to be grateful about. But let's forget that for a moment and focus on the recipient of those, Sherlock.

 

Personally, when friends continue to criticize, demand or judge me to be what they want me to be, they wouldn't see me often or at all. I'd bolt, that would be my first and subsequent reactions until I have nowhere to run. (But Sherlock stays) They would drive me mad actually, who are you to demand me to be what you want me to be? As long as I'm not harmful to others, why should I be? And the slap. I swear if a friend slapped me they would feel the same tingling sensation before they even rest their hand parallel to their body. I only grant slapping right to my parents and they also need to have very good justification for that, and to me, it should be applicable to anyone.

 

Good old story would tell you that you would come to realization that they are right and they probably run out of other ways to make you see that to justify their actions, then all of you embrace and ride to the sunset.

But the reality is, why wouldn't these friend try to see it, in this case, Sherlock's way?

It's hard enough to fit in, hard enough to accept their presences, hard enough to understand himself, it's not exactly rocket science (I hate this phrase too) that relationship is complicated for someone like Sherlock.

 

But still, he was there, taking the slap.

She was slapping him for taking drug and accusing him for destroying himself. Eventhough he tried to put up defence, reasoning and couple of insults (it's normal defense in my eyes: you would try to hurt back when someone is hurting you) but he took the slap. And I'd say that is respect, not in your face or normal kind of respect, but acceptance and trust that you believe this person means well and cares about you eventhough she is physically hurting you. He trusts her frustration and I wouldn't be surprised if Sherlock wasn't tiny bit disappointed that nobody believes that it's (regardless how many percent, there are truth in it) for a case.

 

Any example that we can provide to justify any relationships is double-edged sword, most are easily flipped to prove opposite point. And in Sherlock, the way they show affections are mostly different with the way 'normal' affections are shown in others, but I can relate to them pretty well. Shows that stick with me are those about awkward outcast human who always struggle with normality, so I'd say it's quite useless to look for regular cliche' examples in Sherlock, I also don't know how.