Molly Hooper

[Arcadia]

Sssshhhh, it was all for a case.

[Van Buren Supernova]

I'm curious if those that like the Molly character think her friendship with Sherlock was reciprocal? I mean Sherlock has at various times throughout the seasons shown concern or through actions conveyed his appreciation/affection for Mrs. Hudson, Mycroft and John. Even for Irene he wrote a song, keeps her phone and he saved her life. Has he done shown something similar for Molly besides thanking her for helping with his fake suicide plot?

I'd say Sherlock is the kind of guy who thinks nothing when he saves someone, but it requires a lot from him/he appreciates it more when he trusts/asks you to save his life.

 

And the things they do in bathtub? Ehm.. battleship? Rubber ducky?

Or having experiment with bath salt? That thing can get you high as well.

[bedelia1984]

Sssshhhh, it was all for a case.

 

He also says to Molly at the start of the phone call that it's for a case, is this a line he uses on women often? I can kind of see it paying off for him. Seems like he's kept his hat around too.

 

 

I'm curious if those that like the Molly character think her friendship with Sherlock was reciprocal? I mean Sherlock has at various times throughout the seasons shown concern or through actions conveyed his appreciation/affection for Mrs. Hudson, Mycroft and John. Even for Irene he wrote a song, keeps her phone and he saved her life. Has he done shown something similar for Molly besides thanking her for helping with his fake suicide plot?

I'd say Sherlock is the kind of guy who thinks nothing when he saves someone, but it requires a lot from him/he appreciates it more when he trusts/asks you to save his life....

 

Yes!  That's the main reason. And also, he asks her advice about drinking in TSOT. I think what I like most about that scene is that it comes soon after she and he (sort of) saying she shouldn't be spending time with him outside of work-related stuff because of the engagement, and then he shows up to talk to her about something totally not work related. And the fact she's one of two people he celebrates his birthday with in TLD. The kisses, too, of course. One thing I love about their scenes together is how hesitantly Sherlock sometimes approaches Molly- in TEH when he is asking her to solve crimes, and on the stairwell- there is something nice about that, a level of consideration you don't see him have with anybody else.

[gerry]

There's a difference with Molly. With Sherlock's other friendships, he's willing to do things for their benefit. With Molly (and probably also Lestrade), it's always about what Molly can do for him but I can't think of anything he's done purely for Molly's benefit. Of course Molly has always shown a willingness to do what Sherlock asks of her but there's something about their friendship that I find offputting even though I like both characters and I've been trying to figure out what bothers me. If you go by dialogue, he's not even that nice to her that often... there's the he's gay scene where he comments on how much weight she's gained after deducing that IT guy wasn't really interested in a rather unkind way in TGG, the xmas scene with the cruel deduction after he told her not to tell jokes because it's not her area and after rolling his eyes when he sees her coming up the stairs in ASIB, there's the TRF scene where he tells her not to try to make conversation because it's not her area, in HLV he throws the lack of engagement in her face, there's his mocking her concern for him in TLD and of course the humiliation of the ILY call in TFP. I doubt the writers see it that way though which is strange to me. I mean didn't Moffat say of course Sherlock loves Molly? His dialogue and attitude towards her often contradicts this sentiment.

[Shadow Dweller]

Probably because Molly and Greg didn't really snipe back to his tendency to verbally abuse them. Janine's case is different, she also was used by Sherlock but later take her revenge in a way that he can appreciate. I believe Mofftiss if they said that Sherlock will end up keeping bees with her.

[gerry]

Probably because Molly and Greg didn't really snipe back to his tendency to verbally abuse them.

That would make Sherlock quite a bully and certainly not what a good man does.

 

I believe Mofftiss if they said that Sherlock will end up keeping bees with her.

I don't follow the bees reference and why you think that would be the case?

[Carol the Dabbler]

 

I believe Mofftiss if they said that Sherlock will end up keeping bees with her.

I don't follow the bees reference....

In the hospital scene in HLV, Janine says she bought a cottage in -- where was it, Sussex? Anyhow, the same area where Conan Doyle's Holmes retired to keep bees. Janine says she's going to sell the hives that came with the cottage, but who knows...?

[Shadow Dweller]

Sherlock was a bully and there are several instances of proof from S1-4

 

Janine bought a cottage on Sussex Down. ACD's Sherlock retired to keep bees at a cottage in that location. Somewhere either Moffat or Gatiss said that Sherlock will end up keeping bees with Janine (don't know joking or not, frankly I don't care).

[gerry]

Shadow I agree regarding Sherlock being a bully. Also thanks to you both for educating me on the reference!

[Arcadia]

 

Sssshhhh, it was all for a case.

 

He also says to Molly at the start of the phone call that it's for a case, is this a line he uses on women often? I can kind of see it paying off for him. Seems like he's kept his hat around too.

 

Well, it would sure work on me.  Geez, I'm getting a whole new set of ideas about Sherlock....  

 

There's a difference with Molly. With Sherlock's other friendships, he's willing to do things for their benefit. With Molly (and probably also Lestrade), it's always about what Molly can do for him but I can't think of anything he's done purely for Molly's benefit.

 Hm, interesting point. I guess first I need to remember what he's done for his other friends ... which would be John, Mary and Mrs. H, right? (I don't have to count Anderson, do I? ) Well, for Mary, he killed a man. Although that might have actually been for John. For Mrs. H, he almost killed a man, and got another convicted of murder. For John, he pretended to kill himself. Oh, and that was for Mrs. H and Lestrade too, so there's something he did for Lestrade. Also he solved all those cases without taking credit for them.

 

But Molly ... her life's never been in danger, so Sherlock hasn't had much chance to kill or be killed for her sake.  ;) Still ... I think he would, surely? It's hard for me to imagine he wouldn't. He let himself be "vivisected" for her sake, he probably thought that was worse than death. 

 

Of course Molly has always shown a willingness to do what Sherlock asks of her but there's something about their friendship that I find offputting even though I like both characters and I've been trying to figure out what bothers me. If you go by dialogue, he's not even that nice to her that often... there's the he's gay scene where he comments on how much weight she's gained after deducing that IT guy wasn't really interested in a rather unkind way in TGG, the xmas scene with the cruel deduction after he told her not to tell jokes because it's not her area and after rolling his eyes when he sees her coming up the stairs in ASIB, there's the TRF scene where he tells her not to try to make conversation because it's not her area, in HLV he throws the lack of engagement in her face, there's his mocking her concern for him in TLD and of course the humiliation of the ILY call in TFP. I doubt the writers see it that way though which is strange to me. I mean didn't Moffat say of course Sherlock loves Molly? His dialogue and attitude towards her often contradicts this sentiment.

But his dialogue and attitude towards everyone is like that, he's not singling her out for special abuse. He said John had gained weight, told Mary motherhood had made her slow, forgot Lestrade's name, told Mrs. H to shut up ... if we gauged how Sherlock feels for his friends by the way he insults them, we'd have to say he doesn't love any of them.

 

This may be more to do with what each of us thinks love looks like. For some people, it's all about sexual attraction. Others might think it's all about sacrifice, or selflessness, or empathy; or a combination of things. I know you said you don't believe Moftiss is capable of addressing these issues, but to me it seems that's one of the points they tried to make throughout the series ... love is just love, it can never be explained. No, wait, sorry, that was James Earl Jones. How'd he get in here?

[gerry]

....But Molly ... her life's never been in danger, so Sherlock hasn't had much chance to kill or be killed for her sake. ;) Still ... I think he would, surely? It's hard for me to imagine he wouldn't. He let himself be "vivisected" for her sake, he probably thought that was worse than death.

Honestly I'm not sure about the former. I also don't think he allowed himself to be vivisected. It wasn't a sacrifice he chose to make for hers or anyone else's benefit. It was an unintended consequence of insisting on meeting his sister and getting sucked into her games. Mycroft warned Sherlock about her. You make it sound like Moffat's quote that the ILY call was so much harder on Sherlock than Molly but I could not disagree with that more. Molly and the governor's wife were the only truly innocent "victims" of those games. All other characters made choices that got them there.

 

But his dialogue and attitude towards everyone is like that, he's not singling her out for special abuse. He said John had gained weight, told Mary motherhood had made her slow, forgot Lestrade's name, told Mrs. H to shut up ... if we gauged how Sherlock feels for his friends by the way he insults them, we'd have to say he doesn't love any of them.

It could be frequency of appearance that affects my perception, meaning maybe it appears worse for Molly to me because she's not on as much as John, Mrs.H, or Mary. He's only been genuinely nice to Molly without insults in maybe a couple of episodes but there's been plenty of nice to balance out the insults for John, Mrs. H and Mary throughout the seasons.

 

This may be more to do with what each of us thinks love looks like. For some people, it's all about sexual attraction. Others might think it's all about sacrifice, or selflessness, or empathy; or a combination of things. I know you said you don't believe Moftiss is capable of addressing these issues, but to me it seems that's one of the points they tried to make throughout the series ... love is just love, it can never be explained. No, wait, sorry, that was James Earl Jones. How'd he get in here?

I still don't believe Moftiss is making any profound statement about love. I doubt they give it much thought at all. I also don't think this is about love. It's about respect and treating people you claim to care about with respect and like you care about their well being. How you treat people close to you, including at its worst (i.e.verbal or physical abuse), isn't about love, it's about whether there is respect for the other person.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I agree with your philosophy in general (though I haven't thought through what the implications might be for Sherlock and company).  Respect comes first.  Love can be built on respect, but "love" without respect is a sham and a delusion.

[gerry]

Love can be built on respect, but "love" without respect is a delusion.

Yes, this is a exactly how I feel. Couldn't have said it better!

[Arcadia]

I agree with that in theory, but my own personal experience with love is that we are all flawed, and often say the worst things to the ones we care about the most. It's not lack of respect, usually, just human weakness. I wish it weren't, and maybe it isn't true of everyone, but I see it all the time. Although I agree Sherlock is a little more, er .... caustic, than most.

[Van Buren Supernova]

Yah in my personal experience I also treat people I care about eh.. slightly worse, sometimes it is identified by them as don't care or even hate.

Maybe part of it is effort to shake it off (well that doesn't sound like what I want to say XD).

Anyway, not sure how to explain, it's probably body immune system trying to fight back potential harmful stuff, by repelling or isolate it out. Replace 'harmful stuff' with 'feeling' and 'body' with 'heart'.

[Carol the Dabbler]

No argument whatsoever with any of that. But as you noted, imperfect behavior is not the same thing as lack of respect.

[Arcadia]

Yah in my personal experience I also treat people I care about eh.. slightly worse, sometimes it is identified by them as don't care or even hate.

Maybe part of it is effort to shake it off (well that doesn't sound like what I want to say XD).

Anyway, not sure how to explain, it's probably body immune system trying to fight back potential harmful stuff, by repelling or isolate it out. Replace 'harmful stuff' with 'feeling' and 'body' with 'heart'.

 

I've always thought it's because the ones we love are the ones we trust to forgive us for our trespasses.

[bedelia1984]

 

 

Yah in my personal experience I also treat people I care about eh.. slightly worse, sometimes it is identified by them as don't care or even hate.

Maybe part of it is effort to shake it off (well that doesn't sound like what I want to say XD).

Anyway, not sure how to explain, it's probably body immune system trying to fight back potential harmful stuff, by repelling or isolate it out. Replace 'harmful stuff' with 'feeling' and 'body' with 'heart'.

I've always thought it's because the ones we love are the ones we trust to forgive us for our trespasses.

Exactly, and it is Molly to whom Sherlock says 'You've always counted and I've always trusted you.'

[Van Buren Supernova]

I've always thought it's because the ones we love are the ones we trust to forgive us for our trespasses.

True. We tend to take things for granted. Come to think of it, it's actually very messed up eh? But it's true. And probably the source of problem in many relationships; regrets, things that are not said, the one that got away, those..... stuffs.

 

A wise man once said "If you really need a mystery, I recommend human heart."

[gerry]

I've always thought it's because the ones we love are the ones we trust to forgive us for our trespasses.

Exactly, and it is Molly to whom Sherlock says 'You've always counted and I've always trusted you.'

These excuses bother me more than I can possibly articulate because they've been given to me as excuses for my father's behavior. When you're on the receiving end of something like that, you'll know how hollow those excuses really are.

 

Being mean and/or insulting to people close to you regularly isn't simply an imperfection and it would be truly sad for Molly to associate how Sherlock treats her as any form of respect or love. Reminds me of the type of woman that ends up in abusive relationships with men. They usually have a fundamental lack of self esteem that doesn't allow them to believe they deserve better. Maybe that's why I find Sherlock's and Molly's friendship so offputting, Molly deserves a lot better for all she does for Sherlock and she gets very little in return from him (not even regular kindness).

[bedelia1984]

I find it quite surprising when people describe Sherlock's behaviour to Molly- or any others he has said thoughtless or unkind things to- as abusive. To me it doesn't reach that extreme level which I would see as abuse. Especially, something like telling someone their boyfriend is gay, just seems more petty and childish than abusive. Also, an abuser usually sets out to wound, whereas Sherlock seems genuinely upset when he sees he has hurt Molly.

[Arcadia]

I hear you, because my father was one of the people I was thinking of when I made that remark. He adored us, we adored him, but omg he could say the most crushing, vicious things when he was in a mood. God, how it hurt. He would sincerely apologize afterwards, but it never lessened the hurt.

 

Yet I would soundly thump anyone who said my father wasn't a good man. He was the first, and one of the very few, who told me that I was talented and smart and that just because I was a girl didn't mean I couldn't become anything I wanted. He was the one we turned to when we needed understanding; my mother is the most loving, non-judgmental being on earth, but Dad got us. He knew how to listen, how to empathize, how to heal life's wounds. Does that excuse his behavior at other times? No, and I didn't mean to imply that. But it does acknowledge that we are all imperfect beings (with the possible exception of my mother. ) We don't always behave as our best selves, as much as we might wish for that. And it doesn't define love, or lack thereof. Love exists separate from all of that. Maybe it shouldn't ... maybe we would all be better off if we could withhold our love from anyone who doesn't demonstrate the appropriate level of respect or gentleness or affection; but the heart wants what the heart wants. You can try to teach others how you want to be treated; you can try to teach yourself how to respond. You can even try to train your heart not to feel; but look where that leads.

 

So how would I apply that to Sherlock and Molly? The man who tries not to feel, and the woman who can't stop herself from loving him? I've thought all along that Molly would be better off if she placed her heart elsewhere, and bless her, she's tried ... but the heart wants what the heart wants. And I'm still not clear what Sherlock's wants. Maybe he just wants to learn to be a better man first? Maybe he wants Irene. :( Maybe he even wants Molly but thinks he's wrong for her (and I still agree, I'm afraid.) But I do think he loves her. Just not THAT way.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

We don't always behave as our best selves, as much as we might wish for that. And it doesn't define love, or lack thereof. Love exists separate from all of that. Maybe it shouldn't ... maybe we would all be better off if we could withhold our love from anyone who doesn't demonstrate the appropriate level of respect or gentleness or affection; but the heart wants what the heart wants. You can try to teach others how you want to be treated; you can try to teach yourself how to respond. You can even try to train your heart not to feel; but look where that leads.

 

 

Sometimes the best way to reach a person is to love them in spite of their faults. That doesn't mean you agree with or approve of their bad behavior. It means you do what you can to help steer them away from the bad behavior and towards better behavior. John and Molly have both attempted that throughout the 4 series of Sherlock. John might have been a touch better at letting Sherlock know when he's being a bit not good, even if it was not always in the best ways.

[gerry]

He was the first, and one of the very few, who told me that I was talented and smart and that just because I was a girl didn't mean I couldn't become anything I wanted. He was the one we turned to when we needed understanding; my mother is the most loving, non-judgmental being on earth, but Dad got us. He knew how to listen, how to empathize, how to heal life's wounds...... But I do think he loves her. Just not THAT way.

The former is what you describe as the good that balances out the bad. What balances out how Sherlock treats Molly? How does he show love to her that you says he feels? Allowing her to meet his needs isn't love, it's him using her and in the process he insults everything about her: her body, her personality (ability to joke, converse), her feelings and her lack of love life. He has treated Irene better and she used him to get what she wanted from mycroft and taunted him with moriarty. He is capable of better but just chooses to never direct it mollys way.

[Arcadia]

Sure he does.