Molly Hooper

[gerry]

Gerry, I feel like nothing I could say concerning the nature of Molly and Sherlock's relationship would change your mind and so I won't try.

I don’t want anyone to. I asked the question at one point where in the episodes is it conveyed that Sherlock loves Molly and the repsonse was there really isn’t anything specific, it’s all in the subtext. I see no reason to rehash that because what’s not subtext is the tone and attitude towards her that ranges from indifference, dismissive, mocking and in the xmas scene, complete asshole. The only episode exception being TEH. I remember being so suprised by the stairs scene that he was nice to her that I rewound the scene and watched it again, lol. Then again, my visceral reaction to that relationship could be that Molly reminds me a lot of my mom. I can’t imagine what I would do if someone talked to my mom like Sherlock talks to Molly. He’s such a bully to someone who would never fight back and stand up for herself. And to call that love is scary to me actually.

 

Sorry that was me venting again!

 

Many, many things on Sherlock are ambiguous, especially relationships.

I’d agree with that wrt to Irene and Janine but his relationships with John, Mycroft, Mrs.H, Molly and Lestrade seem pretty straightforward.

[bedelia1984]

 

 

My thought was always that they wrote season 4 episodes before finding out that the actors or whoever made it clear they weren’t going to do season 5 for a long time, if at all, so their solution was rather than rewrite anything just tack on a happy montage at the end so that it could double for a series finale if they didn’t make any more episodes. Which is why the montage was so out place with the rest of the episode.

 

 

I agree with this. Especially (bringing us a bit back to the thread topic) how they handled Molly. I've said I don't much like or feel affected by the ILY scene, but I also don't know how in the world they expect us to make a logical leap between Molly crying brokenheartedly on the phone and her bouncing into 221B like everything is fine.  

 

What were we supposed to assume happened?

 

...

 

To some extent, there is a sort of beauty in the fact that you have to wonder what happened to cause that flip in attitude. I wouldn't like to have it all entiredly spelled out. Though I of course would also have liked more clarity around Molly's side of the story. I'm picturing the montage happening a few months after TFP, not sure how accurate that is, though.

 

LOL! I do wonder what the original ending would have been if there was no montage. Like would Sherlock have really visited eurus or would that and Molly’s story resolution been left for series 5?

 

And no I don’t think Sherlock saying eurus made me do it resolves that Molly loves Sherlock in a way he likely doesn’t reciprocate and that he made her admit it verbally in front of several people. You’d think that circumstance would have a longer affect than “oh well, let’s be friends forever!”. But that’s just me.

 

 

Well, if I were in Molly's shoes, I would have forgiven Sherlock as soon as I learned why he made that phone call. So I neither need a scene explicitly showing that nor do I find it weird that she's happy during the final montage.

 

Of course nothing has changed between them (unless you really want to believe it has in which case, feel free), she still loves him in a different way than he loves her and that's just what it is and they're friends. But that wasn't what upset her. She thought he was being needlessly cruel and toying with her feelings. As soon as she found out there was a good reason for the phone call (which must have struck her as awfully weird once she had time to think about it), I don't think she continued to be miserable or angry about it. I also don't think she went out and shagged somebody else but if that's Mr Moffat's headcanon, fine with me. It's not in the show so I don't have to take it seriously.

 

I think it's worth remembering that Molly wasn't in a great place at the start of the call- she didn't want to take the call from Sherlock, at all. And from what we'd seen in TLD, she was really angry at his behaviour. Yet, they were still on good enough terms to celebrate his birthday. So, either he'd somehow particularly annoyed her recently offscreen, or perhaps something else had happened to her recently which was upsetting.

 

I think that was a definite part of the Moftiss plan- not only does he call Molly, but it is Molly on a very bad day, not a Molly who is so easy to get around as she was before. In hindsight it makes sense now that they made her character a bit tougher and more brittle this season- it had to be believable that she wouldn't just give in to Sherlock, and say the words, trusting that he had good cause to ask her- god knows she's done more difficult things for him in the past.

[T.o.b.y]

Personally, I think if Molly continued to be angry about the phone call after she learned the reason why Sherlock made it, that would be unreasonable and petty. She has plenty of reasons to be mad at him, but a weird phone call made under duress against his will isn't one of them. If she continued to hold a grudge after knowing the full story, that would feed into a trope that I particularly dislike, namely the hero's clueless love interest who cries about him showing up late for date night because he was busy saving the world.

 

Btw, I think Sherlock is actually sincere when he says "I love you" to her. I don't believe he is in love with her, sexually attracted to her or wants a romantic relationship with her, but he does love her. I think it was nice of the writers to leave room for a more "shippy" interpretation though. It's totally possible to imagine them as a couple at the end if you want to, imo. I don't want to and I don't have to. That's pretty fan friendly and I like it.

[gerry]

Why do you think he says it the first time like someone is pulling his teeth if he was sincere? You could easily have the interpretation that it took two tries to say it believably because he’s at the very least not sure about it. I’m also not sure that Molly believed him either.

[T.o.b.y]

 

Why do you think he says it the first time like someone is pulling his teeth if he was sincere? You could easily have the interpretation that it took two tries to say it believably because he’s at the very least not sure about it. I’m also not sure that Molly believed him either.

 

 

My take on that scene is that the first time, he just says it to get her to say it. Then when she makes him say it, he realizes that it's actually true. What I see happening is Sherlock having a little epiphany that he does love Molly and he doesn't like hurting her, perhaps he even realizes in that moment how he has hurt her in the past and feels sorry about that, perhaps that adds to his anger and distress. Who knows.

 

I don't think he loves her romantically, like she loves him, though, simply because I don't want to. That would be too... simple for me. A story that has already been told too often. I like it better if it's complicated and more like something I have actually experienced myself. But I appreciate how they left fans the option to think of them as a couple now because I know what it's like to really, really, really want two characters to be together.

[Arcadia]

Whereas I would love for Sherlock to actually be in love with Molly, only because I'd love to see the "ordinary" girl get The Guy. :smile: Yeah, it's been done, but I still like it. But I don't believe it any more than Toby does. I think Sherlock just realized he really does love her ... just not romantically. :cry:

[gerry]

To some extent, there is a sort of beauty in the fact that you have to wonder what happened to cause that flip in attitude. I wouldn't like to have it all entiredly spelled out.

Not for me. If I wanted to imagine everything I’d read a book. This is a tv show so shouldn’t it be about seeing it happen onscreen? Seems like a generous excuse to justify a lack of logic from scene to scene when the reality is they just didn’t care enough about it (especially in comparison to Eurus to show any follow up). Doesn’t Moffat’s comments in EW pretty much spell that out.... She would just go shag someone!

[gerry]

My take on that scene is that the first time, he just says it to get her to say it. Then when she makes him say it, he realizes that it's actually true. What I see happening is Sherlock having a little epiphany that he does love Molly and he doesn't like hurting her, perhaps he even realizes in that moment how he has hurt her in the past and feels sorry about that, perhaps that adds to his anger and distress....

For the latter, it comes as no surprise that I don’t find that believable. Sherlock is not exactly someone who takes responsibility for how he treats people.

 

For the former, I’m more of a show me not tell me person so I didn’t find the ILY very believable either because his actions and behavior previous to that episode didn’t convey it. Also, it wasn’t like the writing built to that moment so viewing it as some sort of epiphany seems weird to me. I mean if it was intended to be an epiphany, wouldn’t there have been a follow up scene to illustrate that?

[bedelia1984]

 

To some extent, there is a sort of beauty in the fact that you have to wonder what happened to cause that flip in attitude. I wouldn't like to have it all entiredly spelled out.

Not for me. If I wanted to imagine everything I’d read a book. This is a tv show so shouldn’t it be about seeing it happen onscreen? Seems like a generous excuse to justify a lack of logic from scene to scene when the reality is they just didn’t care enough about it (especially in comparison to Eurus to show any follow up). Doesn’t Moffat’s comments in EW pretty much spell that out.... She would just go shag someone!

 

 

For me, I like for even television to allow for  little ambiguity- but then I am a fan of grey areas, to me, that it a believable aspect of the human experience. I do think the writing left gaps where it perhaps shouldn't have- but then I think the performances from the actors carried it on- the ILY scene felt right in terms of tone, and so did the montage and both Sherlock and Molly being seemingly in better places in their lives afterwards. In whatever capacity, the idea that the talk they had could have been good for them- whether it was a catharsis, a epiphany, a new start, or closure- it's not out of the realm of possibility that in the wake of a difficult time a friendship survives and gets stronger.

 

Again, what Moffat said- I'm not convinced he believed, and it he did, I consider him totally wrong, but I guess that's his prerogative!

 

Even though I wanted to see more of Molly onscreen, I liked that we did get some mentions that she and the guys were still hanging out offscreen etc- you can interpret their friendships as you wish in that scenario. 

 

Sherlock is not exactly someone who takes responsibility for how he treats people.

 

 

I think TFP, more than anything, was showing how much Sherlock has changed in this regard. Mary's death has been one catalyst- but also he's older, more experienced and has gained the ability to be a bit more vulnerable, to have more empathy. He even seems to be helping John out with his baby! I think a lot of people might have fely like 'that's not the real Sherlock Holmes'- but is is the one we have in the end sequence, nonetheless. I felt like BC conveyed all of that in his scenes in the prison- that old imperviousness had disappeared, and it's one of the best things about his performance and the journey he took with the character.

[T.o.b.y]

 

 

 

To some extent, there is a sort of beauty in the fact that you have to wonder what happened to cause that flip in attitude. I wouldn't like to have it all entiredly spelled out.

Not for me. If I wanted to imagine everything I’d read a book. This is a tv show so shouldn’t it be about seeing it happen onscreen? Seems like a generous excuse to justify a lack of logic from scene to scene when the reality is they just didn’t care enough about it (especially in comparison to Eurus to show any follow up). Doesn’t Moffat’s comments in EW pretty much spell that out.... She would just go shag someone!

For me, I like for even television to allow for little ambiguity- but then I am a fan of grey areas, to me, that it a believable aspect of the human experience. I do think the writing left gaps where it perhaps shouldn't have- but then I think the performances from the actors carried it on- the ILY scene felt right in terms of tone, and so did the montage and both Sherlock and Molly being seemingly in better places in their lives afterwards. In whatever capacity, the idea that the talk they had could have been good for them- whether it was a catharsis, a epiphany, a new start, or closure- it's not out of the realm of possibility that in the wake of a difficult time a friendship survives and gets stronger.

 

Again, what Moffat said- I'm not convinced he believed, and it he did, I consider him totally wrong, but I guess that's his prerogative!

 

Even though I wanted to see more of Molly onscreen, I liked that we did get some mentions that she and the guys were still hanging out offscreen etc- you can interpret their friendships as you wish in that scenario.

Sherlock is not exactly someone who takes responsibility for how he treats people.

 

I think TFP, more than anything, was showing how much Sherlock has changed in this regard. Mary's death has been one catalyst- but also he's older, more experienced and has gained the ability to be a bit more vulnerable, to have more empathy. He even seems to be helping John out with his baby! I think a lot of people might have fely like 'that's not the real Sherlock Holmes'- but is is the one we have in the end sequence, nonetheless. I felt like BC conveyed all of that in his scenes in the prison- that old imperviousness had disappeared, and it's one of the best things about his performance and the journey he took with the character.

Yes, he is very good at portraying this kind of character development. And I like Sherlock Holmes as the "great heart behind the great brain". Not as entertaining now as he was during the early days of shooting walls and pissing people off but that's why the show is done, imo. The happily ever after is always boring, that's why stories end there. But I like a good ending.

[bedelia1984]

Yes, and, there's still room for him to occasionally, god-willing, come out and have an old-style adventure- with Watson of course! Even just a one-off TAB style (but present day).

 

There's a cynical part of me that suspects Moffat might actually keep Molly around just to have someone in the background to take care of Rosie as John and Sherlock return to their former glory for a  case or two. I wonder has Una Stubbs retired now. Actually I prefer not to think about it- just looked up her age and see she's now 80- how incredible her performance was in season 4!

[Arcadia]

She had the best scenes in the whole season, didn't she? Especially when she cons John into promising to check out Sherlock. :D (Although ... he never actually did it, did he? Shame on you, John, disobeying Mrs. Hudson like that!)
 
I had forgotten that Molly is Rosie's godmother. So she'll always be a part of their lives, irregardless of her relationship with Sherlock, yeah? I like to think so, anyway.
 

 

 

Sherlock is not exactly someone who takes responsibility for how he treats people.

I think TFP, more than anything, was showing how much Sherlock has changed in this regard. Mary's death has been one catalyst- but also he's older, more experienced and has gained the ability to be a bit more vulnerable, to have more empathy. He even seems to be helping John out with his baby! I think a lot of people might have fely like 'that's not the real Sherlock Holmes'- but is is the one we have in the end sequence, nonetheless. I felt like BC conveyed all of that in his scenes in the prison- that old imperviousness had disappeared, and it's one of the best things about his performance and the journey he took with the character.

 

Yes, he is very good at portraying this kind of character development. And I like Sherlock Holmes as the "great heart behind the great brain". Not as entertaining now as he was during the early days of shooting walls and pissing people off but that's why the show is done, imo. The happily ever after is always boring, that's why stories end there. But I like a good ending.

 

I have assumed, from episode 1 and Greg's "with luck, someday he'll be a good man", that this is where the story has been heading all along; Sherlock abandoning his "sociopath" pose and revealing his humanity. Lord knows that's certainly the lens through which I've viewed it all this time. And I suspect, if we ever see him again, people will still get pissed off at him. That's what people DO. :smile:

[gerry]

For me, I like for even television to allow for little ambiguity- but then I am a fan of grey areas, to me, that it a believable aspect of the human experience. I do think the writing left gaps where it perhaps shouldn't have...

To you, is the lack of ILY call a gap or ambiguity and how do you differentiate? Further, if in TLD, the episode ended after John saved Sherlock from Smith in the hospital and there was no scene at the end at Baker Street, would that have been a gap or ambiguity? Would just going from point A (hospital scene) to the beginning of TFP as best buds again (point C) been as satisfying without point B (Baker Street scene with ghost Mary)? And how is going from the ILY call scene (point A) to the montage (point C) satisfying without an equivalent point B scene?

 

...- but then I think the performances from the actors carried it on- the ILY scene felt right in terms of tone, and so did the montage and both Sherlock and Molly being seemingly in better places in their lives afterwards.

It’s funny to me because the montage even upon initial viewing (specifically the Baker Street scene) seemed so jarring and out of place I thought the actors were just hanging out on set and not in character at all.

 

In whatever capacity, the idea that the talk they had could have been good for them- whether it was a catharsis, a epiphany, a new start, or closure- it's not out of the realm of possibility that in the wake of a difficult time a friendship survives and gets stronger.

In this possibility do you see Molly still hung up on Sherlock? If so, how would it be good for Molly to still be friends with Sherlock? What would she get out of it given how he is towards her?

 

think TFP, more than anything, was showing how much Sherlock has changed in this regard. Mary's death has been one catalyst- but also he's older, more experienced and has gained the ability to be a bit more vulnerable, to have more empathy. He even seems to be helping John out with his baby! I think a lot of people might have fely like 'that's not the real Sherlock Holmes'- but is is the one we have in the end sequence, nonetheless. I felt like BC conveyed all of that in his scenes in the prison- that old imperviousness had disappeared, and it's one of the best things about his performance and the journey he took with the character.

You got all of that out of BC’s performance in the montage? I’m not even sure what to say to that. I didn’t. As I said above, count me in with those thinking “that’s not the real Sherlock Holmes”. Maybe it was more like BC though.

 

I am surprised that the what 2 minute montage would be satisfying to you character development wise for a perceived 4 series long character journey.

[bedelia1984]

 

For me, I like for even television to allow for little ambiguity- but then I am a fan of grey areas, to me, that it a believable aspect of the human experience. I do think the writing left gaps where it perhaps shouldn't have...

To you, is the lack of ILY call a gap or ambiguity and how do you differentiate? Further, if in TLD, the episode ended after John saved Sherlock from Smith in the hospital and there was no scene at the end at Baker Street, would that have been a gap or ambiguity? Would just going from point A (hospital scene) to the beginning of TFP as best buds again (point C) been as satisfying without point B (Baker Street scene with ghost Mary)? And how is going from the ILY call scene (point A) to the montage (point C) satisfying without an equivalent point B scene?

Yeah, that's a gap- in that i would have liked an actual scene with dialogue between Sherlock and Molly- there could have been a time jump, it wouldn't have to be expressly discussed (the ILY call), but somehow, they could have conveyed the way in which things now stand between them. Again, not necessarily in detail. But the montage just barely does that. So they just about pass, but they could have done a bit better, IMO.

 

...- but then I think the performances from the actors carried it on- the ILY scene felt right in terms of tone, and so did the montage and both Sherlock and Molly being seemingly in better places in their lives afterwards.

It’s funny to me because the montage even upon initial viewing (specifically the Baker Street scene) seemed so jarring and out of place I thought the actors were just hanging out on set and not in character at all.

 

I can see that for the Baker Street scenes (though I disagree, to me they were just more natural, happy, relaxed- life had finally settled down)- but I thought the violin scenes with Eurus were blatantly saying that Sherlock is a changed man- he is being kind to his sister, in spite of what she put him through, because he can still empathise with her pain

 

In whatever capacity, the idea that the talk they had could have been good for them- whether it was a catharsis, a epiphany, a new start, or closure- it's not out of the realm of possibility that in the wake of a difficult time a friendship survives and gets stronger.

In this possibility do you see Molly still hung up on Sherlock? If so, how would it be good for Molly to still be friends with Sherlock? What would she get out of it given how he is towards her?

Actually, no. The way I see it, the next time they met, they had to in some way address what had been said in the ILY call, or even if they didn't, in an unspoken way, things had still changed. So, either, from that point on, they've discussed how Molly feels, it's in the open, and she can assume Sherlock doesn't feel the same, because it'd been addressed and there's no follow up- and she can finally feel that she can move on, knowing she at least got to say how she felt. It might even make it better to know that he cares enough to have some regret at not feeling more.

 

Or, (as I'd like better) he would have to tell her if he possibly felt the same, even to a small degree, and maybe they would try a relationship, which might or might not work out and we'll probably never get to see. :(

 

Maybe the call doesn't change everything, but it has the capacity to, and in the montage Molly looked happier with the status quo between them than she did in TFP, so I'll take that.

 

think TFP, more than anything, was showing how much Sherlock has changed in this regard. Mary's death has been one catalyst- but also he's older, more experienced and has gained the ability to be a bit more vulnerable, to have more empathy. He even seems to be helping John out with his baby! I think a lot of people might have fely like 'that's not the real Sherlock Holmes'- but is is the one we have in the end sequence, nonetheless. I felt like BC conveyed all of that in his scenes in the prison- that old imperviousness had disappeared, and it's one of the best things about his performance and the journey he took with the character.

You got all of that out of BC’s performance in the montage? I’m not even sure what to say to that. I didn’t. As I said above, count me in with those thinking “that’s not the real Sherlock Holmes”. Maybe it was more like BC though.

 

I am surprised that the what 2 minute montage would be satisfying to you character development wise for a perceived 4 series long character journey.

 

Well, no, as I mentioned above, the prison scenes, but also his whole entire performance throughout the duration of the show, and a transformation which has been ongoing since he returned in TEH, and realised how much he had missed the people in his life, his recognition of loneliness in TSOT, his sacrifice of himself in HLV, his regret over Mary.... and many other little things along the way, which, in my opinion, led in a convincing way to a montage with is a bit like an epilogue, saying now that he has been through all that, here is the (richer) life that he can now lead- in tiny snippets, yet, but because it's a 'happy' ending, we can imagine that all is in general well.

 

I don't think Sherlock is helping John with Rosie because he's fundamentally changed personality by the way- I think he's doing it because he loves John, and sees her as family, and recognises that in the absence of Mary, John needs support. In essence, because Sherlock is a good man.

[gerry]

...but I thought the violin scenes with Eurus were blatantly saying that Sherlock is a changed man- he is being kind to his sister, in spite of what she put him through, because he can still empathise with her pain

Sherlock’s flashes of kindness have always been sporadic. He’s nice to Mrs. H on occasion, Mary, Irene, “Faith” and a total jerk to others like the headmistress, Molly, Janine, etc. I mean he rescued Irene even after all that she did. So, I’m not sure being nice to a member of his family conveys fundamentally changed man.

 

Actually, no. The way I see it, the next time they met, they had to in some way address what had been said in the ILY call, or even if they didn't, in an unspoken way, things had still changed... It might even make it better to know that he cares enough to have some regret at not feeling more

Wouldn’t they have had to actually address the ILY call for Sherlock to express regret? I’m also not sure how you can tell from the flash in montage that anything really did change in that friendship dynamic.

 

Maybe the call doesn't change everything, but it has the capacity to, and in the montage Molly looked happier with the status quo between them than she did in TFP, so I'll take that.

Yeah I won’t take that because for me to find that happiness believable I need to see how they got there. Seeing is believing!

 

I don't think Sherlock is helping John with Rosie because he's fundamentally changed personality by the way- I think he's doing it because he loves John, and sees her as family, and recognises that in the absence of Mary, John needs support. In essence, because Sherlock is a good man.

Helping with Rosie actually isn’t what I found not Sherlock Holmes, it was the manner and joy in which he was doing it. There was that scene with Sherlock and Rosie with the rattle.... that was more Sherlock Holmes to me dealing with a baby, not the montage scene. Then again, like I said before everything about the montage seemed out of character to me.

[bedelia1984]

 

Actually, no. The way I see it, the next time they met, they had to in some way address what had been said in the ILY call, or even if they didn't, in an unspoken way, things had still changed... It might even make it better to know that he cares enough to have some regret at not feeling more

Wouldn’t they have had to actually address the ILY call for Sherlock to express regret? I’m also not sure how you can tell from the flash in montage that anything really did change in that friendship dynamic. 

 

For me, we see that Sherlock is distraught when he breaks the coffin up. Of course, I would have loved a scene where he says that to Molly- but to me, at this stage, it's a given that he was upset that Molly had been drawn into that 'experiment', and that in some way, in the future, she would know that- even if you take into account that John was there too, it's no secret that he hated what he had to do to Molly.

 

So, again, just for me, it's no great leap to say that either Sherlock told her himself- and he's apologised for hurting her before, so it's not such a big jump to doing so again, in fact I think his general sense of propriety would compel him to say something, probably something better than what Moffat described, too. But even if it wasn't said aloud, or if it was a text messgae, or letter, or he stammered around it, and never quite got it out, or they both did, and had an awkward moment- I think people understand each other without words sometimes too.

 

I think Molly's very happy expression, in the montage, on visiting Baker Street is enough to know things are better- if they weren't, why would she be there at all?

[gerry]

Breaking the coffin could very well have been about Eurus or the overall stress of being manipulated in their experiments than empathy for Molly. Either way expressing regret to Molly is entirely different thing than breaking a coffin in a moment of anger.

 

I think Molly's very happy expression, in the montage, on visiting Baker Street is enough to know things are better- if they weren't, why would she be there at all?

Seeing her there happy in a second flash doesn’t mean it’s believable or makes sense. You’re just taking it at face value which obviously works for you.

 

Just for clarification what I meant by believably happy is the dynamic between them. Meaning is he actually different towards her or not? Is she still hung up on him or has she moved on? Does she actually have a legitimate reason to be that happy around him and want to be friends? You seem like you know the answers to those questions based on her existence in the montage but I don’t. I mean he said he was sorry in the Xmas scene but the dynamic between them remained the same thereafter. I’m sure you’d argue that he’s different now than he was in ASIB or whatever but he was mocking her as recently as TLD. I see no reason from a snippet of a montage how you’re supposed to infer anything one way or another. Moffat claimed Sherlock would be more sensitive to her in the future but I’ll believe it when I see it especially when he’s writing. I mean he wrote the xmas scene which was apparently even worse as originally drafted than what aired which is scary. Being more sensitive than the xmas scene wouldn’t be hard but that is setting a low bar!

[bedelia1984]

Breaking the coffin could very well have been about Eurus or the overall stress of being manipulated in their experiments than empathy for Molly. Either way expressing regret to Molly is entirely different thing than breaking a coffin in a moment of anger.

 

I think Molly's very happy expression, in the montage, on visiting Baker Street is enough to know things are better- if they weren't, why would she be there at all?

Seeing her there happy in a second flash doesn’t mean it’s believable or makes sense. You’re just taking it at face value which obviously works for you.

 

Just for clarification what I meant by believably happy is the dynamic between them. Meaning is he actually different towards her or not? Is she still hung up on him or has she moved on? Does she actually have a legitimate reason to be that happy around him and want to be friends? You seem like you know the answers to those questions based on her existence in the montage but I don’t. I mean he said he was sorry in the Xmas scene but the dynamic between them remained the same thereafter. I’m sure you’d argue that he’s different now than he was in ASIB or whatever but he was mocking her as recently as TLD. I see no reason from a snippet of a montage how you’re supposed to infer anything one way or another. Moffat claimed Sherlock would be more sensitive to her in the future but I’ll believe it when I see it especially when he’s writing. I mean he wrote the xmas scene which was apparently even worse as originally drafted than what aired which is scary. Being more sensitive than the xmas scene wouldn’t be hard but that is setting a low bar!

 

 

I can see we are coming from totally different points of view, and I do see your side too- it's very frustrating to be told conflicting things from what we see onscreen, and whilst I don't mind having to do a bit of handwaving of certain things Moffat says, I can totally understand the frustrations of it.

 

For me, the way he touches the coffin, before he smashes it, isn't about Eurus, because it's a very gentle gesture, and I don't think he's feeling particularly gentle towards her- that gesture is definitely about Molly. The smashing is probably a mixture of anger at Eurus, and, for me, anger at hurting Molly. There has to be a reason why the Molly test in particular causes him to lose his cool, even though it's the only one where it transpires there was no mortal risk to anyone?

 

It's hard to know where Moftiss would go next with the writing- and I would definitely have reservations that Moffat, as a writer is equipped or motivated to write Molly's scenes to the extent I would like to see them- to me, Moffat might see Molly as expendable after this season, whereas I would guess Gatiss would rather keep her in. I think this is partly because Gatiss just has better ideas for her, and more interesting ways into her character. I also think he sees the comic side of Louise Brealey's skillset and is able to implement little touches of that which lighten his scripts in a lovely way- like in TEH (one of my favourite episodes).

 

Incidentally, I don't think their dynamic was the same after Scandal- so many really important things only happened after that, his asking her for help/ to solve crimes, her gaining confidence in dealing with him, challenging him on the drug taking- and I don't mean to say that it was done perfectly, the slap, I could live without, for example, but in general, I think they mean to show progress, and did show progress. This all leads on to where John identifies Molly as the one person who will be able to see through Sherlock, but that Sherlock won't have thought of her- but of course he has. To me, that's the change right there,- he was taken aback when she noticed how sad he looked in TRF, but by TLD, he expects her to be the person called on when they need someone who understands him and sees through his act.

[Hikari]

I think the trashing the coffin scene is ambiguous at best.  I think the fact that Molly was used in the experiment was sort of incidental.  Euros manipulated them both, and Molly was an easy target because anyone who has ever seen her interacting with Sherlock knows she wears her heart on her sleeve for him.  I'm sure one part of SH was relieved that Molly didn't get blown up, but trashing the (very flimsy by the look of it prop-) coffin was out of anger at having been manipulated thusly and having to say those words which are, to SH, odious.  Not just to Molly--to any woman, but particularly to her on account of how she's always felt about him.  Molly didn't cooperate and do it 'his' way--just perform on demand, forcing him to say it and sound like he meant it.  Sherlock was not in control of that situation in any form and that's why he was angry enough to trash a coffin.  Partly it was self-recrimination, perhaps--for not being able to protect those in his circle, including Molly, from this unforeseen threat.  His massive intellect has let him down--his brain concocted elaborate safeguards for itself against the trauma of his childhood loss, after all.  For the first time Sherlock has had to confront that he is not immune to frailties of the mind, and that has him profoundly shaken.  Without his infallible mind, what is he?

[gerry]

I can see we are coming from totally different points of view, and I do see your side too- it's very frustrating to be told conflicting things from what we see onscreen, and whilst I don't mind having to do a bit of handwaving of certain things Moffat says, I can totally understand the frustrations of it.

I actually think Moffat’s interviews reflect accurately what he thinks when he writes. They don’t conflict for me. What i think his writing can sometimes conflict with is how Gatiss and Thompson have written something. Like Mary in TSOT and TEH is not the assassin for hire in HLV. The interviews I read are because I try to understand his POV but he usually just comes off as an ass to me. At the very least many of his opinions (not even Molly related) are not exactly the norm.

 

There has to be a reason why the Molly test in particular causes him to lose his cool, even though it's the only one where it transpires there was no mortal risk to anyone?

I think Hikari addresses this far me better than i ever could in the next post but I thought the trigger for the coffin smash was when Eurus said “you lost”. His entire face changed after that like he couldn’t believe she tricked him.

 

Incidentally, I don't think their dynamic was the same after Scandal- so many really important things only happened after that, his asking her for help/ to solve crimes, her gaining confidence in dealing with him, challenging him on the drug taking....To me, that's the change right there,- he was taken aback when she noticed how sad he looked in TRF, but by TLD, he expects her to be the person called on when they need someone who understands him and sees through his act.

The dynamic I was referring to was the fundamental Sherlock “Molly, I need, I want, do this or that for me, I’ve got case!” and Molly “yes of course Sherlock!” to anything Sherlock asks of her no matter how big the request and there are times he doesn’t even need to ask because she’s so hung up on him. But what does Sherlock ever do for her? The fact that Sherlock knows how perceptive she is about him or how he can manipulate her doesn’t change the fundamental nature of that relationship which has been the same the entire show. The xmas scene wasn’t exactly kind and even in TEH when he was actually nice to her it was in the process of him using her to keep him company solving cases because John was angry with him which is evidenced by him having a conversation with John in his head so it wasn’t even about her. This is why to me their friendship is quite one sided...she is a good friend to him but I fail to see how he is one to her although I can see a symbiotic nature in all of his other friendships (e.g. Lestrade gets his outstanding cases solved). I’d say he uses her for whatever he can get because it’s available but I’m not sure that’s a reflection of friendship or any kind of love I believe in. I’m not even sure he respects her beyond her scientific knowledge.

 

So anyway my point was for me to believe the ILY call was some sort of epiphany and he actually loves her even as a friend, I’d have to see a change in his behavior towards her, a reflection that he cares about her beyond whether she’s alive, that he actually has an interest in her wellbeing, treats her with respect and actually appreciates how good of a friend she’s been to him in the past. I mean the one time that Molly brought up her father, Sherlock told her not to make conversation because she’s not very good at it. That sends a message doesn’t it?

[bedelia1984]

 

 I’d have to see a change in his behavior towards her, a reflection that he cares about her beyond whether she’s alive, that he actually has an interest in her wellbeing, treats her with respect and actually appreciates how good of a friend she’s been to him in the past. I mean the one time that Molly brought up her father, Sherlock told her not to make conversation because she’s not very good at it. That sends a message doesn’t it?

 

I thought in TEH, in the stairwell scene, when he told her that she deserved to be happy, that showed exactly the kind of concern that you're talking about?

 

And also, the invitation to work with him- it might be arrogant of Sherlock but I think it's probably the highest compliment he could pay to another human, the idea that he would like to work on cases with her- in his world view, I'm not sure it gets any better than that.

 

The exchange about her father- for me, Sherlock immediately sensed that Molly was going to ask him about how he was feeling, and he instantly went on the defensive. I wouldn't class it like the Scandal scene, because his tone his softer and his protests are almost half hearted, and then at the end when she asks if he wants anything from the canteen, and he does want to ask her, and she brushes it off- again, this is just my interpretation, but he actually appreciates that she has made the effort and noticed how he feels- he's surprised and also it makes him feel less alone- and of course that later leads to him telling her that she does count, that she's always counted and that she was right- which sends a strong message of the way in which he has come to value her.

 

When Molly says to him that she doesn't count- he looks genuinely taken aback to me, as if he realises how cold he has come across to her, and it doesn't reflect how he really feels- again, it's open to interpretation and I'm guessing you may see that totally differently!

[Arcadia]

That's how I read it as well ... going by the look on his face, and his body language, I understood this to be the first time he's realized how observant she is, and how his cold demeanor hurts her. He even indicates he's willing to be sociable with her (which he's never done before) by taking her up on her offer of chips. But she misses it. Or thinks it's not sincere.

[gerry]

I thought in TEH, in the stairwell scene, when he told her that she deserved to be happy, that showed exactly the kind of concern that you're talking about?

On that I agree.

 

And also, the invitation to work with him- it might be arrogant of Sherlock but I think it's probably the highest compliment he could pay to another human, the idea that he would like to work on cases with her- in his world view, I'm not sure it gets any better than that.

I’ve always found that logic funny because I’m not sure I follow Sherlock’s logic if that’s the case but either way did he actually want to work on cases with her or was she just a body because he missed John and it was better than being alone? I mean he was having conversations with John in his head after all. I definitely never believed it was to thank her for what she did for him because when you thank people for their help, you usually do something for them that they want, not something for self-interest. However, maybe it’s like you said it’s just how Sherlock’s mind works but that’s awfully self centered.

 

The exchange about her father- for me, Sherlock immediately sensed that Molly was going to ask him about how he was feeling, and he instantly went on the defensive....

I might have to watch the scene again but I remember taking the scene as one of those things he didn’t care about and weren’t worth his time, like the solar system. But even if your interpretation is the intended take, why did his retort have to be spoken with an insult to her?

 

...I wouldn't class it like the Scandal scene...

Agreed here.

 

...and of course that later leads to him telling her that she does count, that she's always counted and that she was right- which sends a strong message of the way in which he has come to value her.

This is where we diverge. Of course he counts on her and trusts her. She never says no to him and he can manipulate her into just about anything with minimal effort and not coincidentally in that same scene he was about to ask her to do something for him. I have no doubt that Sherlock knows that Molly would do anything for him. In the same episode, he told her to cancel her lunch date which of course she did because she seemingly will drop everything for him if he wants her to.

 

It’s interesting though because when I watched TRF the first time it was on PBS where they cut out a bit of that scene including those lines. I loved TRF so much that I bought the DVD and realized what was missing. It definitely changed my view of the scene and I thought Sherlock actually added a level of appreciation you don’t get from the cut version but for some reason in retrospect by HLV and TLD, I didn’t view the scene that way anymore. Later episodes colored my view of it I guess.

 

When Molly says to him that she doesn't count- he looks genuinely taken aback to me, as if he realises how cold he has come across to her, and it doesn't reflect how he really feels- again, it's open to interpretation and I'm guessing you may see that totally differently!

LOL! Truthfully, I’m still not sure how I feel about his reaction to her line. He did seem suprised but at the time, after the xmas scene in ASIB and the previous episodes like the Jim from IT scene in TGG, I thought the same thing as Molly, that he was pretty indifferent about her.

[bedelia1984]

 

The exchange about her father- for me, Sherlock immediately sensed that Molly was going to ask him about how he was feeling, and he instantly went on the defensive....

I might have to watch the scene again but I remember taking the scene as one of those things he didn’t care about and weren’t worth his time, like the solar system. But even if your interpretation is the intended take, why did his retort have to be spoken with an insult to her?

I guess because Sherlock is kind of a jerk sometimes, even, or maybe especially to people who matter to him, and especially when he feels vulnerable? And it's not an excuse, I think it's just a deliberate character flaw from the writers.

It’s interesting though because when I watched TRF the first time it was on PBS where they cut out a bit of that scene including those lines. I loved TRF so much that I bought the DVD and realized what was missing. It definitely changed my view of the scene and I thought Sherlock actually added a level of appreciation you don’t get from the cut version but for some reason in retrospect by HLV and TLD, I didn’t view the scene that way anymore. Later episodes colored my view of it I guess.

 

 

On why she counts- we do disagree. I guess for me, it's about the context, when she says that her father hid his health problems from everyone, like Sherlock is hiding his anxiety- Sherlock points out that he hasn't hidden it from her. So when she says she doesn't count- to me it is clear that she is saying that she is not someone he cares about enough to hide his feelings from- and then, when he contradicts her, ergo he's saying actually she does matter in his life- not as someone who can be of use in his career, but as someone whose opinion and feelings would matter to him (and yes, that was a bit surprising given how he treated her before that). I could go on, but likely would not convince you!

 

As an aside- appalled PBS cut out some of my favourite lines! The editors who work for these channels are butchers, they routinely axe out my favourite parts (probably because they are always more character than plot-based.)

 

When Molly says to him that she doesn't count- he looks genuinely taken aback to me, as if he realises how cold he has come across to her, and it doesn't reflect how he really feels- again, it's open to interpretation and I'm guessing you may see that totally differently!

LOL! Truthfully, I’m still not sure how I feel about his reaction to her line. He did seem suprised but at the time, after the xmas scene in ASIB and the previous episodes like the Jim from IT scene in TGG, I thought the same thing as Molly, that he was pretty indifferent about her.

 

Well, as Joel Coen said 'it's a fool looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart' (!) :D

 

Sherlock often seems to expect people to have kept up with his logic when he's said nothing aloud- so it makes some sense for me that he would have recognised Molly was a good friend and a decent person, and decided she mattered more than most of the tiresome people he came across, and expected her to know that without ever in any way telling her.

 

I do think before then, there were more bad moments than good- Scandal apology: good, Scandal insults: bad, Repeated devious flirting: bad, I mean, Sherlock is no saint, especially in season one...

[gerry]

I guess because Sherlock is kind of a jerk sometimes, even, or maybe especially to people who matter to him, and especially when he feels vulnerable? And it's not an excuse, I think it's just a deliberate character flaw from the writers.

But is it consistently applied in his other friendships/interactions with Mrs. H, Irene, Janine, etc? I know he’s been sarcastic with John about intelligence but I can’t remember deliberate insults. Was the friend conversation in HOB an insult? I’m not sure. Hurtful definitely though. He also definitely enjoys insulting Mycroft whenever possible for sport. The most I can remember with Lestrade was the you see but you don’t observe or whatever that line was but I wouldn’t consider that an actual insult. I can think of several with Molly though which is why he comes off like a bully to me towards her with the xmas scene taking the cake.

 

...but as someone whose opinion and feelings would matter to him (and yes, that was a bit surprising given how he treated her before that).

Caring about Molly’s feelings is the last way I would describe Sherlock’s interactions with her before TRF or after. Look at TLD, he was specifically making fun of her for her feelings.

 

I could go on, but likely would not convince you!

You’ve definitely given me food for thought. I think I’m going to watch TRF again and see if I feel differently about it.

 

As an aside- appalled PBS cut out some of my favourite lines! The editors who work for these channels are butchers, they routinely axe out my favourite parts (probably because they are always more character than plot-based.)

Well I’m watching season 2 of Victoria on PBS now so I keep wondering if they’re cutting scenes out of this show too! Nothing about the editing makes it obvious if they are but I’m not sure I’m smart enough to catch it. Maybe that’s for the best!

 

Sherlock often seems to expect people to have kept up with his logic when he's said nothing aloud- so it makes some sense for me that he would have recognised Molly was a good friend and a decent person, and decided she mattered more than most of the tiresome people he came across, and expected her to know that without ever in any way telling her.

It’s one thing to say nothing specific like Molly you’re a good friend and the other extreme of being a total asshole to her. Is there really nowhere in between? How can anyone expect you to believe the former if you act like the latter?

 

I do think before then, there were more bad moments than good- Scandal apology: good, Scandal insults: bad, Repeated devious flirting: bad, I mean, Sherlock is no saint, especially in season one...

I’m not sure there are more good moments than bad even after TRF either which is why in retrospect TRF lost impact for me but I haven’t seen TRF since TFP aired.