Molly Hooper

[Hikari]

 

Molly has many interesting sides, of course. But the pathetic sides of her devotion to Sherlock erase much the interest of the character, I'm afraid.

 

It may be just because I'm from Ireland, but the more pathetic a character's devotion is, the more real I find them to be, sometimes. It just seems like a very real part of human nature, to hope against hope, etc.

 

I also don't see Molly as a caricature, but I agree, there are problems with the way women are written- not always, but sometimes- on the show. So much so that there was a point in TFP when I suspected that Molly and Lestrade might end up together with Sherlock as the matchmaker... and then I realised that actually the emotional sides of characters like Molly and Lestrade were collateral damage to the broad strokes of the convaluted plot of TFP, and expecting any kind of resolution/ coherence for either of them was unwise.

 

I do think it is primarily the actress that gives Molly layers, but then they did cast her, and I do think that her portrayal is the only reason they ran with the character, so at least they are capable of recognising talent and potential, and running with it.

 

I find Nicholas Cage to be a terrible actor and the worst kind of ham, with apologies to those who are fans of his work. 

 

 

Bedelia,

 

Do you mean to say that the Irish are all lovesick masochists? 

 

Someone did say (Dr. Freud, quoted by Matt Damon in 'The Departed' . .?) that the Irish are a race which are impervious to psychoanalysis.  To that I say, bravo, why pay hundreds and hour for a headshrinker when that money could be far better spent at the pub!  Think how many pints you could stand your friends for what one hour of analysis would cost!

 

Molly has her defenders, of which I guess I'm one . .not to the point of being convinced that she and Sherlock should get married, mind.  But an awful lot of folks here seem to regard her as a mousy, pathetic caricature, with zero fashion sense.  I'll say yes to the latter, but I suppose I identify with Molly, too, on some level.  I'll cop to having been (still am) the brainy girl with shy tendencies who has loved unattainable men from afar.  (Does a crush on Benedict count? . .)  but he has had real-life counterparts in my Mind Palace.  I have watched those objects of my affection choose others.  Like Molly, I have remained unchosen.  Unlike her, I'm not so good at the high-level sciences.  And Loo Brealey is much prettier than I am.  But Molly is a woman who is hiding her natural radiance under a bushel to a degree.  If she were real, I'd like to be her friend.  I wouldn't even try to talk her out of her horrible clothes, even if they do make her look like a mentally unbalanced person on a day pass from the facility sometimes.  Loo pulls it off, somehow.  Molly has substance that goes beyond what she wears, or the lengths she goes to to get Sherlock Holmes's attention--LB has made us sense this even if she didn't get a lot of screen time.

 

I could actually see Molly as the star of her own spin-off show . . .something more comedic and perhaps in the line of Bridget Jones's Diary . . although with a slightly  more morbid flavor.  I suppose we have seen the last of our Sherlock crew, but if Molls were real, I'd wish her all the peace and happiness and love which she deserves.  She deserves better than Sherlock Holmes would be able to give her.  She does resonate with me and with anyone who has ever wanted someone or something so badly which they could not have.  That is a universal human condition.

 

[gerry]

I quite liked Cage in Birdy and Moon-something with Cher. He was the ideal cast for LLV. But then…

I don’t think he’s a good actor but I am ashamed to admit I did like the movie The Family Man but I think that was because of Tea Leoni rather than him and it was a just cheesy xmas movie.

[gerry]

It's a sad Molly in S4, having lost a lot of her sparkle with this realization . .but weren't we all sad during S4? It's like Mofftiss was gleefully blowing up their own painstaking craftsmanship with an anthrax bomb. What was supposed to be the real purpose behind that scene? We know what Eurus wanted to accomplish, but what did Mofftiss want to accomplish? To humiliate Molly in front of the object of her long-held desire yet again? To force Sherlock Holmes into the uncomfortable and uncustomary realization that he actually loves Molly after all . . ? There are many kinds of love--surely Sherlock does not feel 'Eros' for Molly Hooper? That'd be a sellout to the character. That whole scene just felt like an instance of blatant emotional manipulation from the writers, who knew that a segment of their viewership wanted Sherlock and Molly to get together. They dangled this wrenching emotional exchange/confession between the two . .and then it was nothing more than the bonus round to a sick game. So we thought. And then Sherlock destroys the faux coffin with 'I Love You' written on it with his bare hands. So What does zis mean Doktor Mofftiss, enlighten us, please!

I’ve often wondered what Moftiss wanted out of the ILY call scene since Moffat implied he didn’t think it was a big deal to the point that Molly would have just shagged someone after. If Moffat thought it wasn’t a big deal, not sure if they intentionally tried for emotional manipulation but the reason I don’t think they are good writers is because why is Molly’s sole purpose on the show almost 10 years after it began still pining after Sherlock? Is there really nothing more they can think of for her to do? If not, why is she on the show? It just seems like a waste of a character and the actress’ talent. It reminds of the gay jokes that Gatiss said they overdid. Isn’t the pining also played out?

 

Bedelia... what lead you to believe that Lestrade/Molly was possible by TFP? Neither character was on much in series 4 so not sure what build up you saw for that possible plot move.

[Artemis]

I don't ship Sherlock with Molly; I don't ship Sherlock with anyone, as I've said before.  But if I absolutely had to ship Sherlock with someone, it would be Janine before Molly, because I thought their chemistry was more balanced.  She can keep up with him, she is quick and better suited to his personality.  Molly is too wholesome and mild-mannered for Sherlock's acerbic wit and dark psychology.  She shares his scientific interests, and has insight into a different side of him that is normally concealed to everyone else: The sad side, because she identifies with it.  But she has a harder time following him intellectually and playfully, and realistically I think he would need that.  (Speaking of the sad side, one could speculate that he's often so callously dismissive of Molly because he's also dismissive of the side of himself she perceives and identifies with.)

At any rate, I'm with Toby and Hikari on this, and I identify with Molly, which lends realism to her character for me.  I understand what it's like to have no friends or family around (if indeed that is her situation), and in no way do I find it difficult to believe, or even surprising; kindness and probity don't guarantee either.  In regard to the clothes, since that seems to be a big thing: It's not all that uncommon for an awkward, nerdy, cerebral type to pay little mind to the clothes on their body.  I actually am that walking cliché, so it's real to me, lol.  It's a stereotype, but not really a caricature; we are out there.  Growing up, all my clothes came ill-fitted and in ugly patterns from garage sales.  My parents never taught me how to dress.  As an adult, I still don't do it well, and I still forget to give it attention, because clothes were never anything more than functional to me.  They existed to make sure I wasn't naked, and that's it.  The one thing my parents did make sure to do was have me dress up for special occasions (Christmas with friends would count).  So Molly's Christmas outfit didn't strike me as anything overdressed or out of place, I would have thought it was normal.  (Her earrings were gaudy for my taste, but that's purely subjective.  I liked her little Christmas bow barrette.)  It's easy to become oblivious to social conventions if there was no one who took an interest in explaining them to you.  Not to mention, if we were going to criticize someone for being overdressed for the occasion, we could just as easily turn it towards Sherlock.  I wouldn't expect to see a man in a suit coat (or whatever you call that) in most environments.  (I'm not criticizing the way Sherlock dresses, just to be clear. ^_^ I think it's spiffy.)

 

 

[Artemis]

Funny how strong the reactions to Nicolas Cage.  I'm completely indifferent to him.  I don't think he's great or awful.  I like some of his movies, but not others.

 

 

[bedelia1984]

 

....

 

Bedelia,

 

Do you mean to say that the Irish are all lovesick masochists? 

 

Someone did say (Dr. Freud, quoted by Matt Damon in 'The Departed' . .?) that the Irish are a race which are impervious to psychoanalysis.  To that I say, bravo, why pay hundreds and hour for a headshrinker when that money could be far better spent at the pub!  Think how many pints you could stand your friends for what one hour of analysis would cost!

 

 

Well if you've read much of our poetry and literature, you'll already know that of course we're all lovesick masochists! I think there is something about the Irish sensibility where if a story doesn't have at least a hint of tragedy/ the potential for disaster, we can't quite believe it to be true. In art, at least, we probably want a love story to be a bit like Yeats describes it:

 

"I would spread the cloths under your feet:

But I, being poor, have only my dreams;

I have spread my dreams under your feet;

Tread softly because you tread on my dreams."  

 

And yes to a Molly spin off, bring it on! (but should Moffat be allowed to write it?)

 

 

Bedelia... what lead you to believe that Lestrade/Molly was possible by TFP? Neither character was on much in series 4 so not sure what build up you saw for that possible plot move.

 

 

The part that made me wonder, was that it seemed to me that there was some half-abandoned plot-line about Lestrade asking out a woman at work- I think we got one throwaway line where Sherlock might have told him that we was planning on asking out a female officer but that she wasn't really the one? Whatever way it was put, it made me think they originally planned to give Lestrade some sort of more happy ending romantically (than the wife who was cheating on him) but either ran out of time or the availability of RG wasn't there. And the only character I could think of that we had seen, who could possibly be 'the one' for him- would possibly be Molly?

 

Little things like that make me feel a bit regretful, just hints of the episode having been a bit rushed and pieced together, which as it was such a big finale, I wish they would have found a bit more time or resources for things like giving Lestrade a proper ending. 

 

 

I don't ship Sherlock with Molly; I don't ship Sherlock with anyone, as I've said before.  But if I absolutely had to ship Sherlock with someone, it would be Janine before Molly, because I thought their chemistry was more balanced.  She can keep up with him, she is quick and better suited to his personality.  Molly is too wholesome and mild-mannered for Sherlock's acerbic wit and dark psychology.  She shares his scientific interests, and has insight into a different side of him that is normally concealed to everyone else: The sad side, because she identifies with it.  But she has a harder time following him intellectually and playfully, and realistically I think he would need that.  (Speaking of the sad side, one could speculate that he's often so callously dismissive of Molly because he's also dismissive of the side of himself she perceives and identifies with.)

 

At any rate, I'm with Toby and Hikari on this, and I identify with Molly, which lends realism to her character for me.  I understand what it's like to have no friends or family around (if indeed that is her situation), and in no way do I find it difficult to believe, or even surprising; kindness and probity don't guarantee either.  In regard to the clothes, since that seems to be a big thing: It's not all that uncommon for an awkward, nerdy, cerebral type to pay little mind to the clothes on their body.  I actually am that walking cliché, so it's real to me, lol.  It's a stereotype, but not really a caricature; we are out there.  Growing up, all my clothes came ill-fitted and in ugly patterns from garage sales.  My parents never taught me how to dress.  As an adult, I still don't do it well, and I still forget to give it attention, because clothes were never anything more than functional to me.  They existed to make sure I wasn't naked, and that's it.  The one thing my parents did make sure to do was have me dress up for special occasions (Christmas with friends would count).  So Molly's Christmas outfit didn't strike me as anything overdressed or out of place, I would have thought it was normal.  (Her earrings were gaudy for my taste, but that's purely subjective.  I liked her little Christmas bow barrette.)  It's easy to become oblivious to social conventions if there was no one who took an interest in explaining them to you.  Not to mention, if we were going to criticize someone for being overdressed for the occasion, we could just as easily turn it towards Sherlock.  I wouldn't expect to see a man in a suit coat (or whatever you call that) in most environments.  (I'm not criticizing the way Sherlock dresses, just to be clear. ^_^ I think it's spiffy.)

 

I really like that Molly isn't a fashion plate. I actually think it is for a similar reason to if you look at how Lena Dunham dresses her character in Girls (now, to my mind, worse than Molly- stuff that doesn't fit and is also in poor taste)- just seeing a woman on TV who hasn't been made into a perfect object, something from a  magazine, but rather seems more like a real person.

 

I don't hate all her clothes at all. It's more the stuff she puts on her head when she dresses up, that I question- like the easter bow at John's wedding, the christmas bow, and the headscarf at the Christening. I do think they do it to distract from the fact that LB has a pretty face, and as you say, they want her to be the type that hides that. I think there is a line from Little Women, where the professor speaks to Jo, and tells her that some women make the most of themselves because they want the world to focus on their beauty, and then that she (Jo) hides her beauty so the world will see something else- and to me, that is Molly, too (Though forgive me, if I'm only thinking of the film as I can't recall that line being in the book, I've got the two muddled in my memory). Not that a woman should have to choose which aspect of them is more important- but I just get the impression that she wants people to focus more on her intellectual side, and that she focus more on that herself.

[Artemis]

Aww, I like the little Christmas bow, lol.  I thought rather it was the earrings and makeup that detracted from her face.  I actually liked the Christening headscarf too, I thought it made her look pert.  The wedding bow though, yeah, a bit much.

 

I think there is a line from Little Women, where the professor speaks to Jo, and tells her that some women make the most of themselves because they want the world to focus on their beauty, and then that she (Jo) hides her beauty so the world will see something else- and to me, that is Molly, too (Though forgive me, if I'm only thinking of the film as I can't recall that line being in the book, I've got the two muddled in my memory). Not that a woman should have to choose which aspect of them is more important- but I just get the impression that she wants people to focus more on her intellectual side, and that she focus more on that herself.

 

I like that.    I can relate to that line, I should save it.  Which film version is that from?  I only watch the 1994 one, and I'm pretty sure it's not in there.

 

[bedelia1984]

Aww, I like the little Christmas bow, lol.  I thought rather it was the earrings and makeup that detracted from her face.  I actually liked the Christening headscarf too, I thought it made her look pert.  The wedding bow though, yeah, a bit much.

 

I think there is a line from Little Women, where the professor speaks to Jo, and tells her that some women make the most of themselves because they want the world to focus on their beauty, and then that she (Jo) hides her beauty so the world will see something else- and to me, that is Molly, too (Though forgive me, if I'm only thinking of the film as I can't recall that line being in the book, I've got the two muddled in my memory). Not that a woman should have to choose which aspect of them is more important- but I just get the impression that she wants people to focus more on her intellectual side, and that she focus more on that herself.

 

I like that.    I can relate to that line, I should save it.  Which film version is that from?  I only watch the 1994 one, and I'm pretty sure it's not in there.

 

 

 

Well, I had thought it was from that version, and now, upon checking I have made a grievous error, and it wasn't from Little Women at all, but from The Sisterhood of the Travelling Pants, an entirely different movie! Sorry for the confusion, for some reason I always associated that line with the character of Jo (I do think it fits her).

 

I wouldn't have expected such a nice line to be from The Sisterhood... (though it's been so long I might be underestimating it), but here it is in full, about Alexis Bledel's character, Lena:

 

"Some people show their beauty because that’s what they want the world to see, others hide their beauty because they want the world to see something else."

[Artemis]

Ooooh, okay.  Thank you!  It does fit Jo. 

 

 

[Van Buren Supernova]

I don't ship Sherlock with Molly; I don't ship Sherlock with anyone, as I've said before. But if I absolutely had to ship Sherlock with someone, it would be Janine before Molly, because I thought their chemistry was more balanced. She can keep up with him, she is quick and better suited to his personality. Molly is too wholesome and mild-mannered for Sherlock's acerbic wit and dark psychology. She shares his scientific interests, and has insight into a different side of him that is normally concealed to everyone else: The sad side, because she identifies with it. But she has a harder time following him intellectually and playfully, and realistically I think he would need that. (Speaking of the sad side, one could speculate that he's often so callously dismissive of Molly because he's also dismissive of the side of himself she perceives and identifies with.)

 

At any rate, I'm with Toby and Hikari on this, and I identify with Molly, which lends realism to her character for me. I understand what it's like to have no friends or family around (if indeed that is her situation), and in no way do I find it difficult to believe, or even surprising; kindness and probity don't guarantee either. In regard to the clothes, since that seems to be a big thing: It's not all that uncommon for an awkward, nerdy, cerebral type to pay little mind to the clothes on their body. I actually am that walking cliché, so it's real to me, lol. It's a stereotype, but not really a caricature; we are out there. Growing up, all my clothes came ill-fitted and in ugly patterns from garage sales. My parents never taught me how to dress. As an adult, I still don't do it well, and I still forget to give it attention, because clothes were never anything more than functional to me. They existed to make sure I wasn't naked, and that's it. The one thing my parents did make sure to do was have me dress up for special occasions (Christmas with friends would count). So Molly's Christmas outfit didn't strike me as anything overdressed or out of place, I would have thought it was normal. (Her earrings were gaudy for my taste, but that's purely subjective. I liked her little Christmas bow barrette.) It's easy to become oblivious to social conventions if there was no one who took an interest in explaining them to you. Not to mention, if we were going to criticize someone for being overdressed for the occasion, we could just as easily turn it towards Sherlock. I wouldn't expect to see a man in a suit coat (or whatever you call that) in most environments. (I'm not criticizing the way Sherlock dresses, just to be clear. ^_^ I think it's spiffy.)

I agree with all of this with some exceptions.

Like exchange Janine with Molly if there has to be a ship.

And I don't think Molly doesn't care about cloth, as in it's not only functional to her, but she tries.

 

I think Janine, while a fun match for Sherlock, would be bored eventually and leave Sherlock or vice versa. She is outgoing, loves to explore the world, definitely has less principle than Sherlock and no match to his intelligent. They could have fun for a while, but when the initial stage passes, I could see them lost interest with each other. Opposite attracts, but needs chemistry to bind and last.

 

While, with Molly. I could imagine them as long lasting companion. Like long married couple who understand each other and know each other spaces and buttons. It's not crazy passion or mushy romantic or those rubbishes, but steady, comforting and always reliable. And yes, I can imagine Sherlock does that very well, with the right person.

[gerry]

I don't ship Sherlock with Molly; I don't ship Sherlock with anyone, as I've said before. But if I absolutely had to ship Sherlock with someone, it would be Janine before Molly, because I thought their chemistry was more balanced. She can keep up with him, she is quick and better suited to his personality. Molly is too wholesome and mild-mannered for Sherlock's acerbic wit and dark psychology.... (Speaking of the sad side, one could speculate that he's often so callously dismissive of Molly because he's also dismissive of the side of himself she perceives and identifies with.)

How can you know though how Janine or Irene for that matter would react to the real Sherlock when the only interactions we’ve seen of them with Sherlock he was putting on a performance and not displaying his true personality?

 

Your dismissive attitude rationale is probably giving the benefit of the doubt but I’ve always thought he was dismissive with her because while he respects her scientific knowledge/acumen, he doesn’t respect her as a person (i.e. her emotional, timid nature, etc.). He seems to have the same view of her as some people here, that she’s a pathetic person not worthy or in the same league of the genius god that is him.

 

Funny how strong the reactions to Nicolas Cage. I'm completely indifferent to him. I don't think he's great or awful. I like some of his movies, but not others.

My late father was quite the movie buff so I’ve seen several of his films whether I wanted to or not and I just didn’t find him to be good, not horrible or anything but not as good as say Pacino or DeNiro. Then again I don’t think Clint Eastwood is a good actor and that’s considered blasphemy is some parts.

[Artemis]

And I don't think Molly doesn't care about cloth, as in it's not only functional to her, but she tries.

 

I don't think Molly doesn't care about clothes either.  She obviously cared enough in the Christmas scene.  I just get the impression that, judging from the little we see, she doesn't put a whole ton of thought into her everyday wear.

 

Opposite attracts, but needs chemistry to bind and last.

 

While, with Molly. I could imagine them as long lasting companion. Like long married couple who understand each other and know each other spaces and buttons. It's not crazy passion or mushy romantic or those rubbishes, but steady, comforting and always reliable. And yes, I can imagine Sherlock does that very well, with the right person.

 

See, I think the same thing, except exchange Molly with Janine again, lol.  I view Molly as more of an opposite to Sherlock than Janine, even though they have some commonalities.  Janine seems more on his wavelength to me, and I see them having more potential to develop the kind of relationship you're talking about than Sherlock and Molly.  Oh well, lol.

 

To clarify though, I'm not saying I think Sherlock and Janine make a good couple.  Like I said, I don't and wouldn't ship him with anyone.  I just think they're a little better suited than Sherlock and Molly.  Lesser of two "evils" basically, lol.

 

 

[Artemis]

How can you know though how Janine or Irene for that matter would react to the real Sherlock when the only interactions we’ve seen of them with Sherlock he was putting on a performance and not displaying his true personality?

 

Well, I was basing my opinion mostly on their interaction at the wedding and the conversation between them in the hospital room, both of which I think were sincere at the time.  Though short scenes, I like how easily they converse and get along, and I saw potential there.

 

Irene is a whole different story, I'm not even gonna go there, lol.  She bores me.

 

Your dismissive attitude rationale is probably giving the benefit of the doubt but I’ve always thought he was dismissive with her because while he respects her scientific knowledge/acumen, he doesn’t her as a person (i.e. her emotional, timid nature, etc.).

 

That may very well be.  I was just throwing it out there as an idea.

 

Ugh, I agree about Clint Eastwood.

 

 

[Boton]

Re: Sad Molly

 

Sometimes, I almost think that rather than S4 being fan service, it was an angry response from Moftiss.

 

I mean, I still think it is good storytelling.  While I didn't like it as well as the other seasons, that's mostly because it felt like an ending rather than a continuing adventure.  I'm not irritated like other fans.

 

But sometimes I think some of the scenes border on just being a flip of the bird to the viewer - a well done one, but still a flip.  "You want a Sherlock and Molly 'I love you' scene?  Here you go.  Fan-fic that one to your heart's content."

 

I feel sort of bad with as mean as I've been to Molly in this thread, especially since some folks identify with her.  I like the character, honestly.  I'd watch the heck out of a spin-off where Molly, Mary, and Janine solve crimes that Holmes and Watson couldn't, and it is all done on background where no one knows.  I think LB is a great actress.

 

My reaction to Molly is mostly the same one that many people have with Janine: I think she is too common and "real" to ever catch someone as ethereal and rare as Sherlock, and watching her try just makes me cringe. I don't feel the same with Janine because she has sass; that whole tit-for-tat scene in the hospital really sold me on Janine.  Giving Molly something analogous with the face slapping in HLV just felt brittle and angry rather than sassy.  Molly's idol has turned out to have feet of clay because he will actually do drugs. Watching her continually have hope that Sherlock will be the person that she wants him to be is just so painful, I can't really enjoy Molly all that much.

 

(Plus, there is, unfairly, the fact that I abhor the way she is written in most fan fiction, all Disney-esque sweetness and light with an amazing ability to get pregnant any time Sherlock is in the same room.  But I shouldn't judge the "real" character by that.)

 

[T.o.b.y]

It is not about realism of course, nor Mycroft neither someone else. It's about having fun, or feeling empathy, identify with one character.... You can't have fun with Molly, you just can say poor Molly. I totally stick to the principle of a character with hopeless feelings for Sherlock, it has fun potential, but they miss the point.

I must admit many male showrunners get it when writing female characters, however. But in Sherlock you can't deny male characters are much better portrayed than female ones, the touches of caricature are more subtile...

And, well, about Mycroft...it depends on which side you consider him: many people have underlined how they felt the same as him about brotherhood on one side. On the other side, obviously many of his reactions wouldn't work in everyday life.

 

Well, I can have fun with Molly... And I admire her more than I pity her.

 

Good point, about being able to empathize with a character. I think that does play a major part in how we perceive them and also how we judge the quality of the writing. I identify with Molly, I feel with and for her, so I don't need much actual input from the show to fill in the blanks and make her a complete person inside my head. I feel as if I "get" her and she seems lifelike, believable and nuanced to me. Mycroft, on the other hand, I feel absolutely no connection to. I take him at face value and don't get too much out of that. So he's the one that seems flat to me. Although he does make me laugh a lot and I like how he brings out the bratty younger sibling in Sherlock.

 

I think it's hard to say whether the male characters are better written than the female ones on Sherlock, because there's no female lead (unless you want to count Mary but I don't). The story focuses mainly on Sherlock, as it should, seeing that's what it's primarily about, and John. So of course none of the other characters, and that means none of the female characters, gets a comparable amount of screen time or character development.

 

Personally, I think Molly, Mrs Hudson and Sally Donovan are all great and I do not think their portrayal is in any way inferior to that of male secondary characters like Mycroft, Lestrade or Anderson. Same goes for Janine. I am not fond of her but I find her believable and see no major fault with the way she was written. The ones I have problems with are Mary and Eurus. That is, I think they would be great if they had their own show but I find them sort of misplaced on Sherlock.

 

Sorry, Toby, I'm going to have to go with Janyss on this one.  I think part of the problem with Molly is that she is a caricature.  I imagine some of this is mediated through cultural cues, but to me, she is the stereotypical nerdy girl, more interested in her lab stuff than whether her cardigan matches a single other thing on her outfit (sorry!) and pining for a guy who is so far out of her league it isn't even funny, it's just pathetic. Molly deserved better, but I do understand that she was meant to be a one-off lab tech and then was so well liked that they grew her into a main character, so mad props to LB for the acting job.

 

I also find Mycroft exaggerated, but in a way that is more of an extrapolation of what some EPG (exceptionally and profoundly gifted) folks actually are.  I still want to go on vacation with Mycroft.  I think he'd be a hoot.  He'd know the best hotels and restaurants, and he'd probably be well on board with my plan to spend a week in a beach chair catching up on reading.

 

You are very welcome to Mycroft's company, he isn't at all wanted around here. We don't want him snooping around our beakers and petri dishes. You two go off and drink expensive wine, I'll wait with Molly until a good corpse comes in. Everybody will be happy - until Sherlock tells us to f... off because we're occupying people he thinks exist mainly to fulfill his needs. :P

 

As I said above, it's all about personal experience and perspective. Molly can be said to be an extrapolation of what some (many) nerdy girls are like. And I don't think you have to extrapolate far... Also, I have been madly, deeply, hopelessly in love with an exceptional person who didn't return my feelings and I am here to tell you that Molly's behavior is rational and a pattern of self-respect compared to my own in that situation.

 

I don't ship Sherlock with Molly; I don't ship Sherlock with anyone, as I've said before.  But if I absolutely had to ship Sherlock with someone, it would be Janine before Molly, because I thought their chemistry was more balanced. 

 

I think Janine and Sherlock would work as FWB, if he ever should change his mind about the role of sex in his life (and Irene wasn't available). Janine seems less likely to be hurt by him than Molly. I don't think there's much risk of her falling in love, not that kind of love at least.

 

I don't ship Molly and Sherlock either. I think if they got together that would send the wrong message. The romantic trope where you just have to wait faithfully long enough and your crush will come to realize how amazing you are and ride off into the sunset with you is old and tired and also a bit dangerous. That's not how it works in real life. Nobody owes us attraction, no matter how dearly we love them. What we do deserve is respect and consideration and I am much happier seeing Molly get that from Sherlock than hugs and kisses. In fact, I LOVE where their story goes. I love that he learns to care for her well-being without the incentive of hoping to get into her pants.

 

Re: Sad Molly

 

Sometimes, I almost think that rather than S4 being fan service, it was an angry response from Moftiss.

 

I mean, I still think it is good storytelling.  While I didn't like it as well as the other seasons, that's mostly because it felt like an ending rather than a continuing adventure.  I'm not irritated like other fans.

 

But sometimes I think some of the scenes border on just being a flip of the bird to the viewer - a well done one, but still a flip.  "You want a Sherlock and Molly 'I love you' scene?  Here you go.  Fan-fic that one to your heart's content."

 

I feel sort of bad with as mean as I've been to Molly in this thread, especially since some folks identify with her.  I like the character, honestly.  I'd watch the heck out of a spin-off where Molly, Mary, and Janine solve crimes that Holmes and Watson couldn't, and it is all done on background where no one knows.  I think LB is a great actress.

 

My reaction to Molly is mostly the same one that many people have with Janine: I think she is too common and "real" to ever catch someone as ethereal and rare as Sherlock, and watching her try just makes me cringe. I don't feel the same with Janine because she has sass; that whole tit-for-tat scene in the hospital really sold me on Janine.  Giving Molly something analogous with the face slapping in HLV just felt brittle and angry rather than sassy.  Molly's idol has turned out to have feet of clay because he will actually do drugs. Watching her continually have hope that Sherlock will be the person that she wants him to be is just so painful, I can't really enjoy Molly all that much.

 

(Plus, there is, unfairly, the fact that I abhor the way she is written in most fan fiction, all Disney-esque sweetness and light with an amazing ability to get pregnant any time Sherlock is in the same room.  But I shouldn't judge the "real" character by that.)

 

Ugh, thanks for giving me another reason to avoid "Sherlolly" fics.

 

You don't have to feel bad for being mean about Molly or not liking her. She isn't real, she doesn't care. And just because I identify with her doesn't mean I feel personally insulted. After all, I dislike Janine and Mycroft but that doesn't mean I would dislike you if I met you in person. It's all good!

 

 

P.S.: My spellcheck isn't working, please ignore the typos.

[T.o.b.y]

Oh, P.P.S.: If you ship Sherlock and Molly, please don't take my words above personally. Go right ahead and enjoy your ship!

[gerry]

 

How can you know though how Janine or Irene for that matter would react to the real Sherlock when the only interactions we’ve seen of them with Sherlock he was putting on a performance and not displaying his true personality?

Well, I was basing my opinion mostly on their interaction at the wedding and the conversation between them in the hospital room, both of which I think were sincere at the time. Though short scenes, I like how easily they converse and get along, and I saw potential there.

See I thought the wedding was a performance too because he knew who she was since he did recon on magnussen already and had planned a con for her.

[Boton]

 

 

How can you know though how Janine or Irene for that matter would react to the real Sherlock when the only interactions we’ve seen of them with Sherlock he was putting on a performance and not displaying his true personality?

Well, I was basing my opinion mostly on their interaction at the wedding and the conversation between them in the hospital room, both of which I think were sincere at the time. Though short scenes, I like how easily they converse and get along, and I saw potential there.

See I thought the wedding was a performance too because he knew who she was since he did recon on magnussen already and had planned a con for her.

 

 

Well, he probably knew who she was because he'd been to the rehearsal dinner and met her there, if not before.

 

He might have planned a con ahead of time. But I'd rather think the Magnussen connection was a happy accident, and it gave Sherlock a chance to prolong his interaction with Janine while telling himself he was just working.

[gerry]

I liked Janine alright but not so much to have hope that Sherlock was interested in her. Then again I wouldn’t wish Sherlock on anyone in that way because they’d be inevitably be disappointed.

[Boton]

I actually think Sherlock could be a fun boyfriend for the right kind of person. I think the key is that she (he) can't want all of Sherlock's attention or want the traditional boyfriend/husband behavior.  But if someone wants a partner who is intelligent, quirky, and unconventional, Sherlock would be a lot of fun.

 

I'd never go on vacation with him, though.  I'd probably kill him on the drive, to say nothing of suffering through sharing a hotel room and making plans together.

[gerry]

Funny because Sherlock would be the last person I’d describe as fun. I’d think anyone would inevitably be disappointed because everything would be on his terms. That would get old for most people. Like I don’t think Sherlock decides anything with anyone or together with anyone. He is going to do what he is going to do and you’re either along for the ride or not but he’s not not changing his plans for you. That’s kind of person he is and how he treats everyone. That’s fine for friends but a romantic partner? Not so much.

[Artemis]

I feel sort of bad with as mean as I've been to Molly in this thread, especially since some folks identify with her.

 

Don't feel bad, Boton!  Like Toby said, it's not a personal insult.  It's all good fun.  ^_^

 

See I thought the wedding was a performance too because he knew who she was since he did recon on magnussen already and had planned a con for her.

 

I don't think so, but it's possible.  I think he made the connection and planned the con after the wedding.  But even if that weren't the case and I only had the hospital scene to go on, I would still have the same opinion.

 

 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Yeah, in the coffin deduction, I didn't expect that ... that she would be identified as the classic little orphan type, alone and uncared for. Now that was sad.

Funny, I did expect it. I got that impression in the ASiB morgue scene especially, when she said, "Everyone else was busy with Christmas."

 

Interesting.  My interpretation of that line (especially what with that little pause before the word "Christmas") was a subtle poke at Sherlock for having ruined the party that she would otherwise still be enjoying.  (Maybe she would have made a more caustic remark if the situation hadn't been so sad for him?)

 

I must admit I'm a little disappointed by women's characters in the show, as far as I've seen, very stereotypical. Do you think hiring a woman in the writers' staff-if a 5th season- would be the point? 

 

Either stereotypical or the exact opposite, yeah, not much in-between for nuance.  I do believe the writers are trying, but they're suffering from the same handicap that I'd be dealing with if I wrote a show with male characters in it.  I'm torn about the idea of adding a (token) woman to the staff, though.  Isn't that is bit like Freud's question, "What do women want?" -- as though all women are alike?  I'd also worry that they'd pick somebody who's hyper-correct.  *shudder*  Think I'd rather deal with Moftiss than one of those!

 

Bedelia... what lead you to believe that Lestrade/Molly was possible by TFP? Neither character was on much in series 4 so not sure what build up you saw for that possible plot move.

 

The part that made me wonder, was that it seemed to me that there was some half-abandoned plot-line about Lestrade asking out a woman at work- I think we got one throwaway line where Sherlock might have told him that we was planning on asking out a female officer but that she wasn't really the one? Whatever way it was put, it made me think they originally planned to give Lestrade some sort of more happy ending romantically (than the wife who was cheating on him) but either ran out of time or the availability of RG wasn't there. And the only character I could think of that we had seen, who could possibly be 'the one' for him- would possibly be Molly?

 

Little things like that make me feel a bit regretful, just hints of the episode having been a bit rushed and pieced together, which as it was such a big finale, I wish they would have found a bit more time or resources for things like giving Lestrade a proper ending.

 

I thought the same thing -- about Molly possibly being "the one," I mean.  (And I'd love to see that!)

 

I also agree about Series 4 seeming sort of rushed and patched together (quite possibly because they also incorporated as much as they could of what they'd planned for Series 5).  But I'm not mourning the end of the show just yet, and have hopes that Greg and Molly will still get together!

[Janyss]

I agree for what you say about women, being a woman doesn't prevent you from having stereotypes on them...May be the problem I have with Molly is that she's too much realistic...We all know someone like that, and may be sometimes in our life we have had Molly's behaviours. But do we want to see that is a show like "Sherlock"? If there is an identification, it is with other kind of elements of the characters (Watson's surprise in front of Sherlock, for eg.).

[Artemis]

He is going to do what he is going to do and you’re either along for the ride or not but he’s not not changing his plans for you.

 

I kind of agree, and that's another reason I was thinking I'd put him with Janine before Molly.  I don't really think Molly could handle that over time, but I think Janine could adjust.  I see her as someone who'd either go along and contribute, or go find something else to do.

 

Interesting.  My interpretation of that line (especially what with that little pause before the word "Christmas") was a subtle poke at Sherlock for having ruined the party that she would otherwise still be enjoying.  (Maybe she would have made a more caustic remark if the situation hadn't been so sad for him?)

 

I interpreted the pause as more of a catch, or rush of thought/emotion, like she had just realized what her response was implying.  I didn't interpret it as a poke at Sherlock because she didn't really wait for it to sink in.  She avoided his eye contact and moved immediately on to the next sentence, like she didn't want it to be dwelt on.

 

But who knows.  It's possible there's some element of both our interpretations in that line.  ^^

 

In any case, she wasn't "busy with Christmas."  I'd think most people with family or friends would find someone else to spend time with on Christmas after a spoiled party.  I doubt Jeanette stormed out only to spend the rest of Christmas alone in her flat, stewing over John.