Molly Hooper

[Arcadia]

Understood. I'd like to have seen more of Lestrade, period. ;) Of all the secondary characters, really. Imo, they crammed too much story into the one episode (TFP), instead of letting their characters live and breathe. It's still a mystery to me why they thought that was a good idea.

 

[gerry]

Yeah. I think Sherlock is a good man, but personally, I thought he was from the beginning.

I’m curious why you think how Sherlock treated people from the beginning of the show is indicative of a good man? He even committed murder with no remorse. Given his lack of guilt over many things, I just don’t get that.

[Artemis]

I can see where you're coming from with that perspective, even if it's different from my own.  Unfortunately, explaining my position would require more energy than I currently have at my disposal, so for now I'll have to leave you unsatisfied and simply say...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[gerry]

Ok then

[Boton]

 

 

But Janine- honestly, for me, Janine is the worst of all, because if Sherlock Holmes, the Benedict Cumberbatch version, said he wanted to propose to me and then, after getting my hopes up I find out that I was just a hapless pawn- and even the dating bit had been a lie, and hanging out while he splashed around in the bath, (perhaps most devastatingly of all), was just a lie- it would be upsetting on a whole different level from someone telling me my lipstick and dress were trying too hard. I know Janine bounced back fairly well- and got her revenge, but that must have really stung.

 

 

The proposal, for me, is probably the worst thing I've seen Sherlock do, and I think that had the potential to cut the deepest.  There is just a little hint ("That was never gonna happen!") that maybe Janine didn't think they'd ever marry, which sort of mitigates it a bit, but it is still an awful thing to do.  Nonetheless, it was cruel.

 

In contrast, I think what Sherlock did to Molly at the Christmas party probably still hurt, but it was awkward and careless, not cruel.  So it doesn't resonate with me as much.

 

(And we're back to the "how you see Sherlock's sexuality" conversation we were having elsewhere, but I've always believed that both people in that bathtub were having quite a good time.  Sherlock always uses cases as an excuse to do what he really wants anyway.)

[J.P.]

In the script Janine have been aware that the marriage was never going to happen. She clearly says so.

I still stick to my headcanon that she was spying Sherlock on behalf of CAM. She let Sherlock in, because CAM wanted to surprise him and catch him in the act of trying to steal the letters. What Janine didn't know was that at the same time Mary has broken in.

[Arcadia]

 

Yeah. I think Sherlock is a good man, but personally, I thought he was from the beginning.

I’m curious why you think how Sherlock treated people from the beginning of the show is indicative of a good man? He even committed murder with no remorse. Given his lack of guilt over many things, I just don’t get that.

 

 

Well, in my case, I said I suspected his "heart was in the right place" from the beginning ... the evolution to "good" man is, to me, definitely progressing but possibly incomplete. (Not enough data, as Sherlock might say.) But even Sherlock admits he's on the side of the angels, and it does seem to me he's using his powers for the benefit of society, and not against it. So in that sense he's already on the path to being a good man, imo, even if he wanders off it at times. 

 

In the script Janine have been aware that the marriage was never going to happen. She clearly says so.

I still stick to my headcanon that she was spying Sherlock on behalf of CAM. She let Sherlock in, because CAM wanted to surprise him and catch him in the act of trying to steal the letters. What Janine didn't know was that at the same time Mary has broken in.

 

Now that would have been a twist! Heck, Sherlock might have genuinely fallen for her if she'd managed to fool him that thoroughly! :d

[bedelia1984]

 

Whereas for me, some of his personal remarks/ taunts, for some reason, I would find easier to brush off, whereas the idea that he would expose Letsrade's wife's infidelity, which I think he wasn't supposed to know about, in front of everyone, is a worse level of cruel?

Personal insults intentionally directed at me will always be harder to brush off. About Lestrade, I’m curious on why you think that? Lestrade wasn’t the one cheating, though I’m sure it would hurt him and his pride that his wife was cheating but Lestrade is the wronged party in this case. If anything it would inspire pity. It was insensitive and rude to embarrass Lestrade by airing dirty laundry in front of everyone but if anything Sherlock was insulting the wife.

 

 

I suppose for me- when Sherlock gives his digs to people about how they look/ plays on their insecurities, I do find him rude, but I also think, so what, how qualified his he to make these judgements, how seriously can anyone take them? And also, I don't find the insults to be reflection of his real thoughts- about Mycroft being fat, or Molly's mouth being too small- I think he picks up on other people's all too obvious insecurities, and exposes them to show off his observation skills.

 

I think I've mentioned this before- for me his tone-deaf insults betray more his own insecurity, not knowing how to be social, so the only thing he can do in make wounding 'observations' of things everyone else has, he doesn't seem to realise, already noticed, but the others are too wise and kind to say them, in a misguided attempt to seem like he knows about people. 

 

Whereas to me, Lestrade  is genuinely trying to make his marriage work, he's already had enough troubles he's overcome with the wife- he's excited about his life taking a turn for the better, for once, and Sherlock takes the opportunity to publicly pull the rug out from under him? To me, my longterm partner cheating is a life- changingly bad piece of news, yet Sherlock acts like it's a fun fact. I'd rather hear his nasty opinions on my dress and make up than have him publicly tell me my life as I know it is a sham, personally (though ideally: neither).

 

 

He didn’t just take shots at her body. He took shots like she shouldn’t make conversation because she’s not good at it and not to date because she’s not good at it (including throwing the fact that Tom dumped her in her face), mocked her feelings in TLD etc. He has made digs and direct insults at almost all aspects of her personality, except science.

 

Slight O/T but does everyone think Tom dumped Molly???! Totally thought it was the other way round, and that at the wedding she realised he wasn't intelligent enough for her?

 

I think Sherlock was a jerk to Janine too but for some reason this one has never resonated with me that much. Probably more of a reflection of me. Don’t get me wrong I enjoyed her getting revenge on Sherlock but I didn’t feel sorry for her. Maybe because of the way she carries herself (a bit obnoxious) or maybe it’s because I just never took the proposal seriously. Was there a time difference between TSOT and HLV? I can’t remember but I remember thinking how could she possibly be in love with Sherlock or taking this proposal seriously over the intercom? Everything about it seemed like it played as a joke.

 

 

Again, probably similar to Lestrade, I just don't like this because it's this girl's real life. Hopefully she didn't take the proposal very seriously- but you just don't do what he did, if you're a gentleman. Especially not the ongoing relationship, wasting her time and potentially toying with her emotions- especially not when she was always very nice and decent to him. It's real-life bad form, and just because someone seems okay, doesn't mean they are- that kind of lying can seriously affect your ability to trust a new partner. And he's way too emotionally tone deaf to be making a call about who can be toyed with and who can't, in my opinion.

[Arcadia]

I also think there's an element of narcissism there; he's so into whatever he is interested in, he's not thinking or caring how what he says affects anyone else. And he even admits he likes to show off.

 

I don't think he's a true narcissist, though, because he's also capable of empathy. He just tries not to be (and I blame Mycroft for that.... :P)

 

ETA: It occurs to me that this story could also be about Sherlock finally freeing himself from being under Mycroft's thumb. Hmm. Have to think about that one, but if you accept that Mycroft was overbearing towards Sherlock, it fits.

[gerry]

In the script Janine have been aware that the marriage was never going to happen. She clearly says so.

I still stick to my headcanon that she was spying Sherlock on behalf of CAM. She let Sherlock in, because CAM wanted to surprise him and catch him in the act of trying to steal the letters. What Janine didn't know was that at the same time Mary has broken in.

This would have made the most sense given the tone of how the scenes were written and acted.

[bedelia1984]

Yes, definitely overbearing, as Mycroft kept a secret from him that was potentially very defining for Sherlock's character, choices and issues.

 

Of course, it really might have been better to protect him from Eurus, as if he was fragile when younger, knowing the truth could have put him over the edge?.

[gerry]

I suppose for me- when Sherlock gives his digs to people about how they look/ plays on their insecurities, I do find him rude, but I also think, so what, how qualified his he to make these judgements, how seriously can anyone take them? And also, I don't find the insults to be reflection of his real thoughts...I think I've mentioned this before- for me his tone-deaf insults betray more his own insecurity,

I definitely think they reflect his real thoughts so I don’t find him to be tone deaf or ignorant. I just think he doesn’t care about other people’s feelings.

 

Slight O/T but does everyone think Tom dumped Molly???! Totally thought it was the other way round, and that at the wedding she realised he wasn't intelligent enough for her?

This is my fault. I checked the transcript, I was remembering a cut line from an earlier draft of the script where Molly said that Tom wanted space. What ended up in the final version didn’t have that line so it doesn’t count. The final script just has Sherlock notice she’s not wearing a ring which was rude too but there’s no proof as to who dumped who.

 

Again, probably similar to Lestrade, I just don't like this because it's this girl's real life. Hopefully she didn't take the proposal very seriously- but you just don't do what he did, if you're a gentleman....It's real-life bad form...

I don’t think you do the vast majority of what Sherlock does if you’re a gentleman. It probably comes down to the sense I have that Molly is emotionally defenseless so insulting people who are that nice and sensitive is worse than tricking a woman who didn’t seem that into Sherlock to begin with and given how she forward she was with Sherlock in TSOT is probably experienced in dating and more realistic about it. It wasn’t like they had a long term relationship or something. Don’t get me wrong, I think it was a shitty thing to do but I’m not surprised. I would think he’d treat people he claims are his friends better though.

 

It’s interesting to me though that so many here find insulting others personally is no big deal. Normally such is behavior is not common communication techniques or good form in real life either but this is all based on what resonates with us, right, and how you rate Sherlock multiple forms of deplorable behavior!

[bedelia1984]

 

It’s interesting to me though that so many here find insulting others personally is no big deal. Normally such is behavior is not common communication techniques or good form in real life either but this is all based on what resonates with us, right, and how you rate Sherlock multiple forms of deplorable behavior!

 

 

It might be a bit cultural, too.

 

In Ireland 'slagging off' your friends is a fairly widespread practice, across both men and women, in fact it's often seen as a form of affection. Of course, it's not the same as what Sherlock does, exactly, because the primary purpose is always humorous (though it can often be mean, or go too far).

 

But because that's the norm here, what Sherlock does doesn't go that far beyond it- it is beyond it, but not as much. Some of the things people say to each other as 'slagging' here would probably count as emotional abuse elsewhere.

[gerry]

Fair enough Bedelia.

[T.o.b.y]

I would like to point out that in real life, I would find Sherlock's behavior deplorable as well. It's only funny because he's fictional, imo - but in that context, I find him very likable and entertaining.

 

We have had a similar discussion before about the shooting of Magnussen. Some find this inacceptable because it makes Sherlock Holmes a murderer. I respect that opinion very much (hey, being opposed to murder is a good thing) but don't share it, for the same reason, because it's fiction and I have different standards for imaginary people than I do for real ones.

[gerry]

Isn’t it a bit contradictory to say that his behavior for real life standards is deplorable and yet assess he’s a good man by real life standards? How can both be true? That’s like calling someone a good student who gets an A in one class and an F in all others.

 

Personally I find it difficult to check my sense of morality that far for the sake of entertainment. To that end I found Sherlock’s murder of an unarmed man with no remorse at all to be by far the worst thing he ever did. That is something pyshopaths and sociopaths do, not good men.

[J.P.]

 

In the script Janine have been aware that the marriage was never going to happen. She clearly says so.

I still stick to my headcanon that she was spying Sherlock on behalf of CAM. She let Sherlock in, because CAM wanted to surprise him and catch him in the act of trying to steal the letters. What Janine didn't know was that at the same time Mary has broken in.

This would have made the most sense given the tone of how the scenes were written and acted.

 

And then she bertrayed her boss and sold the "insider infos" to another publisher. :D

[Artemis]

In the script Janine have been aware that the marriage was never going to happen. She clearly says so.

 

There's still the question of when  she became aware of that though, isn't there?  It's not clear (at least to me) if she knew all along that Sherlock would never marry her (or that she would never marry Sherlock), or if it's only something she's realized afterwards, in hindsight.  (Granted, I haven't read the script, so maybe I'm missing something.)

 

I think on my initial viewing of the scene, I just thought those lines were a bit of banter, like when I hear people say something like,

 

"When are you going to _____?"

"When the Vikings win the Super Bowl."

"But that's never going to happen!"

 

 

[gerry]

 

 

 

In the script Janine have been aware that the marriage was never going to happen. She clearly says so.

I still stick to my headcanon that she was spying Sherlock on behalf of CAM. She let Sherlock in, because CAM wanted to surprise him and catch him in the act of trying to steal the letters. What Janine didn't know was that at the same time Mary has broken in.

This would have made the most sense given the tone of how the scenes were written and acted.

And then she bertrayed her boss and sold the "insider infos" to another publisher. :D

Yes! I even thought it may have been as far back as TSOT. I mean CAM must have known that Mary had befriended his assistant (long before the wedding if Janine was in the wedding party) and did recon on the people in her life. I would not be surprised if that’s why Janine was so forward with Sherlock upon first sight. In essence i thought they were using each other from the very beginning but had fun doing it which is why I never took any of it seriously.

[Boton]

And I always thought that CAM hired Janine because he knew of the Mary connection, and he correctly predicted that he would be able to use this little access point in some way.  I've always thought Janine was being used by both CAM and Sherlock, although Sherlock's proposal had the potential to hurt worse.  In the original ACD story, at least Holmes knew that there was a suitor standing in the wings who was interested in the housemaid (or whoever it was), so she wouldn't be left embarrassed or without a potential husband.  Janine had no comparable modern safety net, so I guess selling Sherlock's story had the parallel purpose of making her set for life and somehow mitigating the damage.  But I still think it's probably the worst thing I saw him do in all the episodes, and yes, I'm counting CAM's "murder."

[gerry]

By “murder” I presume you mean it wasn’t murder? How so? He did mortally shoot an unarmed man.

[T.o.b.y]

I think the worst thing Sherlock ever did was the fake suicide. And to bring the conversation back to Molly: I find it remarkable that she was able to keep her mouth shut in front of John for two years and also that John apparently was never angry with her for doing so.

[Boton]

By “murder” I presume you mean it wasn’t murder? How so? He did mortally shoot an unarmed man.

 

CAM wasn't a murder to me; he was an extermination. An erasing of the hard drive. I'm not the slightest bit bothered (in fiction) by someone with a strong moral code coming in to remove someone who is technically inside the law but who is destroying the lives of innocent people.  And, in my opinion, CAM was absolutely armed: he knew all about Mary, and he was holding a gun to John and Mary's heads just as sure as if he had the physical object.

 

The reason I would object to this in real life is that you never can be sure you have all the information while you are living it.  Vigilante justice in the real world creates more problems than it solves.  But in fiction?  Heck, I cheered when Sherlock shot CAM.  I might have rewound it a couple of times, too.

 

 

And to bring the conversation back to Molly: I find it remarkable that she was able to keep her mouth shut in front of John for two years and also that John apparently was never angry with her for doing so.

 

Yes, back to Molly.  I find this really pretty amazing too. I find it strange that no one seemed to talk to anyone else.  Molly helped Sherlock, so she had the most information but potentially the most reason to keep mum.  Lestrade saw the crime scene and, at least possibly, the phone that Sherlock threw down that had the "Lazarus" code message on it.  And Mrs. Hudson had to know something was up because, at least if we assume that ACD canon is backstory, Mycroft would have come to her to make sure 221B stayed the way Sherlock left it. 

 

Maybe Moftiss just realized that it would look bad if they filmed a scene where John chased Molly through a series of restaurants, yelling at her all the way about keeping secrets.  (Although wouldn't that have been fun?  John spends the whole night berating people in restaurants!)

[T.o.b.y]

I suppose John respects Molly for keeping silent. It's a very loyal thing to do and I think it might resonate with him.

[Boton]

I suppose John respects Molly for keeping silent. It's a very loyal thing to do and I think it might resonate with him.

 

It has to sting, though, that Sherlock took Molly into his confidence.  Either that or he realizes what the silence probably cost her in watching all her friends suffer.