Molly Hooper

[Artemis]

Helping with Rosie actually isn’t what I found not Sherlock Holmes, it was the manner and joy in which he was doing it. There was that scene with Sherlock and Rosie with the rattle.... that was more Sherlock Holmes to me dealing with a baby, not the montage scene.

I agree, I felt the same way about that part of the montage.  It stuck out to me as being "off", not quite in line with Sherlock's character.  It seemed BC, maybe, but not very Sherlock.

 

Further, if in TLD, the episode ended after John saved Sherlock from Smith in the hospital and there was no scene at the end at Baker Street, would that have been a gap or ambiguity? Would just going from point A (hospital scene) to the beginning of TFP as best buds again (point C) been as satisfying without point B (Baker Street scene with ghost Mary)?

I know I'm pretty much alone in this, but I actually did feel a bit as if it went from A to C in that respect.  For me, the Baker Street scene did much more to provide John/Mary closure than to advance John/Sherlock reconciliation.  I think it tried to accomplish both at once, but personally I got a lot more of the former out of it, when I was hoping for more of the latter.  I don't mind that they took time to address John/Mary, because it was needed; and it was really well done.  John's final conversation with Mary's ghost was emotionally gripping, and one of my favorite parts of the episode.  (That was resolution well handled.)  But almost everything else that happened in the scene also either directly or indirectly revolved around John's feelings about Mary, including his tirade over Sherlock's relationship to Irene, and even the hug.  I wasn't left feeling like I had the level of resolution between John and Sherlock (with regard to their friendship) that I was waiting for; I just had to "suppose" a lot of things.  It was acceptable (mostly because there was no choice but to accept it and move on to the next episode), but for me, not all that satisfying.

 

 

[gerry]

I know what you mean about that scene primarily being about John’s guilt over Mary. What I thought was closure for John/Sherlock was the exchange about being human after Sherlock said he wasn’t proud of texting Irene. It was brief but I wasn’t expecting anything specific about the beating or Sherlock’s part in Mary’s death. I thought the exchange was each acknowledging that they are human and make mistakes but that it was time to move on. Between John’s catharsis after confessing that he cheated with Sherlock supporting him through it, the peace between them made sense to me. John has loyally supported Sherlock through many things over the years. I liked that Sherlock supported John through his grief and regret. It made their friendship deeper I thought.

 

I agree, I felt the same way about that part of the montage. It stuck out to me as being "off", not quite in line with Sherlock's character. It seemed BC, maybe, but not very Sherlock.

You might think this is dumb but even the goofy grin he had after shooting the gun seemed more BC than Sherlock too.

[Artemis]

What I thought was closure for John/Sherlock was the exchange about being human after Sherlock said he wasn’t proud of texting Irene.

 

Next to John's conversation with ghost Mary, that "Even you" exchange was my favorite part of the scene.  But even that was more about John's cheating on Mary than anything else, lol.  One can easily ascribe more meanings to it if one chooses, but they have to be inferred.

 

 

[gerry]

One can easily ascribe more meanings to it if one chooses, but they have to be inferred.

I can definitely empathize with you on that. Unfortunately I think it’s a byproduct of the writing style of this show... what they choose to directly address and what they choose to let the viewer infer. I’m guessing moffat would say of course Sherlock knows johns sorry about beating him up and of course Sherlock’s sorry about contributing to Mary’s death so why do they have to say it? Or something along those lines. Whether having to infer something takes away from your enjoyment of the end of course will depend on each viewers POV. This scene seems to be your equivalent of the ILY call follow up for me but at least there was dialogue in the TLD end even if it wasn’t specifically what you wanted. That’s the only silver lining I can come up with!

[Boton]

Wow, I'm out of this thread for a few days and it explodes!  

 

Regarding gerry's commend about needing to infer things and whether or not that takes away enjoyment, to me it depends.  I think it is fine to leave places for the viewers to connect the dots, and it is fun to leave places that can be filled in by fan fiction, but I shouldn't have to feel like I need to write fan fiction to get the plot to make sense.  

 

With the ILY scene, I personally felt like I had to figure out what happened in order to get from that to the montage.  I didn't necessarily need to think that Sherlock apologized, but I had to try to get into Molly's head about why being pulled, even marginally, into yet another of Sherlock's stupid stunts was OK with her. I admit, I have trouble getting into Molly's head in the best of times, so this one was a speed bump for me.

 

The Sherlock-John conversation made sense to me.  Most of their communication is some kind of subtext.  Realistically, these two don't know a whole lot about one another, even though they are best friends.  Someone had a whole list once, but Sherlock has to go to court records to get John's middle name; John doesn't even know if Sherlock has had a relationship before the initial Irene encounter.  It makes sense to me that their first forays into really sharing something deep - John, his infidelity, and Sherlock, his attraction to Irene - would be tentative and would stand in for a whole other conversation about forgiveness and being human that they were having in subtext.

 

[Artemis]

the peace between them made sense to me.

The Sherlock-John conversation made sense to me.

To be clear, I also thought it made sense. I just didn’t think it was satisfying.

[Boton]

You know who needed a satisfying conversation?  Mrs. Hudson.  Sherlock has put that woman through more than everyone else combined.

[gerry]

The writers really only put real thought and time into the John/Sherlock relationship. All others are lacking in some way to me. Like how Lestrade came to a good man conclusion? Was it just because sherlock showed concern for Mycroft? That’s a lot to infer too.

[bedelia1984]

I would have loved to see Mrs. Hudson and Lestrade get more time too- though at least Mrs H did get some cool moments- Lestrade was largely absent.

 

 

I guess because Sherlock is kind of a jerk sometimes, even, or maybe especially to people who matter to him, and especially when he feels vulnerable? And it's not an excuse, I think it's just a deliberate character flaw from the writers.

But is it consistently applied in his other friendships/interactions with Mrs. H, Irene, Janine, etc? I know he’s been sarcastic with John about intelligence but I can’t remember deliberate insults. Was the friend conversation in HOB an insult? I’m not sure. Hurtful definitely though. He also definitely enjoys insulting Mycroft whenever possible for sport. The most I can remember with Lestrade was the you see but you don’t observe or whatever that line was but I wouldn’t consider that an actual insult. I can think of several with Molly though which is why he comes off like a bully to me towards her with the xmas scene taking the cake.

......
It’s one thing to say nothing specific like Molly you’re a good friend and the other extreme of being a total asshole to her. Is there really nowhere in between? How can anyone expect you to believe the former if you act like the latter?

 

Yeah for me, Sherlock is an equal opportunities jerk to nearly everyone- except possibly Mary? And Irene too, I suppose, though it's just one episode, and he does try to embarrass her at least at bit with the passcode thing.

 

There are plenty of moments with Sherlock, and some with Mycroft (rudeness to Mrs. Hudson: so not cool, Mycroft), where I can't quite believe that these adult men were well brought up by their seemingly very nice parents. For Sherlock, things like his digs to Lestrade about his wife's infidelity, his digs at Mycroft for being overweight, the fake engagement with Janine was appallingly ungentlemanly, drugging John as an experiment... In general, Sherlock will observe a weakness and exploit it for his own entertainment, in most people close to him- not an admirable trait, but I think it is mostly consistent across those close to him.

[J.P.]

Not sure if it was really for entertainment.

Sherlock would say it was for science! :D

[bedelia1984]

Well sure J.P. but I think maybe Science can be a form of entertainment for Sherlock?

[J.P.]

But he doesn't do it to hurt people. They get hurt (a bit) in the process… you know, collateral damage. :P

[bedelia1984]

Eh, I think maybe on occassion he does want to hurt people- like in Scandal, when he's hating the party and wants everyone else to be miserable too...

 

But I just can't stay angry at him for it. I blame BC.

[gerry]

Yeah for me, Sherlock is an equal opportunities jerk to nearly everyone- except possibly Mary? And Irene too, I suppose, though it's just one episode, and he does try to embarrass her at least at bit with the passcode thing.

You’ll never get an argument from me that Sherlock’s a jerk to nearly everyone. There are different ways to be a jerk though. It’s just to me, personal insults like you’re ugly, dumb, fat, evil, etc., are worse than embarrassing someone by outing their spouse’s infidelity publicly or being unnecessarily rude. So to that end I think he’s the worst to Mycroft and Molly. He was a jerk to Janine by lying but he wasn’t rude.. in that case he actually used charm to be a jerk. Who knew that was possible?!

[Arcadia]

With the ILY scene, I personally felt like I had to figure out what happened in order to get from that to the montage.  I didn't necessarily need to think that Sherlock apologized, but I had to try to get into Molly's head about why being pulled, even marginally, into yet another of Sherlock's stupid stunts was OK with her. I admit, I have trouble getting into Molly's head in the best of times, so this one was a speed bump for me.

 

I'm guessing by "OK with her" you're referring to her happy smile in the montage? Yeah, that was a bit of a leap even for me, although I get why they did it that way ... leaving all their options open. *sigh* Sometimes serialized story-telling can be a real pain.

 

Still, I like what somebody wrote somewhere ... whatever led up to it, at least we can see that Molly is still in Sherlock's life and seems content with her place in it, whatever it is. For a while there I thought they weren't going to show her again at all. :blink:

 

You know who needed a satisfying conversation?  Mrs. Hudson.  Sherlock has put that woman through more than everyone else combined.

Yeah, but I don't think she minds. She seems to be the one who really "gets" Sherlock -- she's not fooled at all by his "sociopathy" nonsense -- and she's pretty indulgent (more than I would be! :smile:) Nor is she particularly judgmental, is she? I think if Sherlock tried to bare his soul to her she'd just pat him on the head, say "it's alright, dear", and tell him to go find a good murder.

[Artemis]

Like how Lestrade came to a good man conclusion? Was it just because sherlock showed concern for Mycroft? That’s a lot to infer too.

 

I too felt like that came a bit out of nowhere.  I know why they wanted to sneak it in, but I don't think they established enough of a basis for it.  Perhaps another casualty of a condensed script or rushed production.

 

 

[Arcadia]

Well, it comes out of nowhere only if you take the story completely literally, doesn't it? I've always understood that to be the overarching theme of the whole series ... how Sherlock becomes a better person as well as a great detective. But it's a literary device, not a, er, literal one. I agree it wasn't well done, but I didn't find it unexpected ... I've been waiting for that line since I saw the first episode!

 

 

[Artemis]

Right, but what gives Lestrade the idea?  What did he see that changed his mind?  Was it, like gerry said, just that he showed concern for Mycroft?

 

 

[Arcadia]

Well, that's what I mean by a literary device ... Lestrade has to be the one who delivers the line, because he's the one who said its "mate" in the first episode. In this case, he represents the author; "there, I've showed you all the evidence, now my story is done." He knows everything the author knows, so we don't have to see it all from his p.o.v. Whether you think the evidence they presented proves their point is a slightly different matter, imo.

 

I've said this before, and I still believe it ... although some of the storytelling is straightforward, I think people take this show literally at their peril. (And yes, "peril" is meant poetically, not literally, as well. :smile:) It's a fairytale, imo. A really fun one, but not particularly grounded in reality. Or, at least, not physical reality. I find the emotional truths pretty dang real. But those are not concrete things, they don't lend themselves as well to concrete language. Imo, of course.

[gerry]

Exactly Artemis, it just wasn’t earned in the context the line was written. I’m likely alone in this but i don’t think the line was justified based on what we saw onscreen either. He committed cold blooded murder in HLV while laughing it up in T6T and feeling zero remorse until he escalated the situation that led to Mary’s death in the same series but you’re supposed to believe by TFP he’s suddenly now a good man becuase he showed concern for Mycroft? What they find to be a good man and what I do may be very different things.

[Boton]

Well, that's what I mean by a literary device ... Lestrade has to be the one who delivers the line, because he's the one who said its "mate" in the first episode. In this case, he represents the author; "there, I've showed you all the evidence, now my story is done." He knows everything the author knows, so we don't have to see it all from his p.o.v. Whether you think the evidence they presented proves their point is a slightly different matter, imo.

 

I've said this before, and I still believe it ... although some of the storytelling is straightforward, I think people take this show literally at their peril. (And yes, "peril" is meant poetically, not literally, as well. :smile:) It's a fairytale, imo. A really fun one, but not particularly grounded in reality. Or, at least, not physical reality. I find the emotional truths pretty dang real. But those are not concrete things, they don't lend themselves as well to concrete language. Imo, of course.

 

Beautifully put, Arcadia.

 

And I find Sherlock, at the end, to be a good man.  He cares for his friends.  He would kill and die for them. He's started to explore different types of relationships, including those with his brothers, with Molly (a platonic female friend in my view), and even with Irene (a flirtation with sexuality, regardless how far he takes it).  He's gone further toward embracing the range of human experience.  He's a good man, not just someone who does great deeds.

[bedelia1984]

 

Yeah for me, Sherlock is an equal opportunities jerk to nearly everyone- except possibly Mary? And Irene too, I suppose, though it's just one episode, and he does try to embarrass her at least at bit with the passcode thing.

You’ll never get an argument from me that Sherlock’s a jerk to nearly everyone. There are different ways to be a jerk though. It’s just to me, personal insults like you’re ugly, dumb, fat, evil, etc., are worse than embarrassing someone by outing their spouse’s infidelity publicly or being unnecessarily rude. So to that end I think he’s the worst to Mycroft and Molly. He was a jerk to Janine by lying but he wasn’t rude.. in that case he actually used charm to be a jerk. Who knew that was possible?!

 

 

Whereas for me, some of his personal remarks/ taunts, for some reason, I would find easier to brush off, whereas the idea that he would expose Letsrade's wife's infidelity, which I think he wasn't supposed to know about, in front of everyone, is a worse level of cruel?

 

What he says to Molly is unacceptable, but when he taunts John about his moustache, say, or Mycroft about his weight- for some reason I expect a bit of that between men- well actually between immature men. Ditto for Mycroft taunting Sherlock about his lack of sexual experience. It may not be nice, but I hear guys slag each other off like that all the time- not all men, but to me its a remnant of the schoolyard?

 

I suppose part of what make's Molly's worse, is that women are more judged on how they look- perhaps unfairly, so it seems especially churlish to take shots at her.

 

But Janine- honestly, for me, Janine is the worst of all, because if Sherlock Holmes, the Benedict Cumberbatch version, said he wanted to propose to me and then, after getting my hopes up I find out that I was just a hapless pawn- and even the dating bit had been a lie, and hanging out while he splashed around in the bath, (perhaps most devastatingly of all), was just a lie- it would be upsetting on a whole different level from someone telling me my lipstick and dress were trying too hard. I know Janine bounced back fairly well- and got her revenge, but that must have really stung.

[Arcadia]

And I find Sherlock, at the end, to be a good man.  He cares for his friends.  He would kill and die for them. He's started to explore different types of relationships, including those with his brothers, with Molly (a platonic female friend in my view), and even with Irene (a flirtation with sexuality, regardless how far he takes it).  He's gone further toward embracing the range of human experience.  He's a good man, not just someone who does great deeds.

I think it's because he's started to care more about what others need from him, than about what he needs from them. I don't think it's anything to do with his remark about Mycroft to Lestrade ... it's about everything we've seen him go through since ASIP. He's grown. He's still an incredibly flawed man, but ... well, this sounds sappy :smile:, but his heart's in the right place. Probably always was, he just worked harder to hide it.

[gerry]

Whereas for me, some of his personal remarks/ taunts, for some reason, I would find easier to brush off, whereas the idea that he would expose Letsrade's wife's infidelity, which I think he wasn't supposed to know about, in front of everyone, is a worse level of cruel?

Personal insults intentionally directed at me will always be harder to brush off. About Lestrade, I’m curious on why you think that? Lestrade wasn’t the one cheating, though I’m sure it would hurt him and his pride that his wife was cheating but Lestrade is the wronged party in this case. If anything it would inspire pity. It was insensitive and rude to embarrass Lestrade by airing dirty laundry in front of everyone but if anything Sherlock was insulting the wife.

 

It may not be nice, but I hear guys slag each other off like that all the time- not all men, but to me its a remnant of the schoolyard?

Agreed when it’s banter and each give as good as they get. But even between boys/men it can be more bully against weaker guys instead. It just depends on the two people involved. In real life, look at all the bullying that goes on now in high schools especially with social media where kids are killing themselves over the aftermath. It’s really a problem nowadays.

 

I suppose part of what make's Molly's worse, is that women are more judged on how they look- perhaps unfairly, so it seems especially churlish to take shots at her.

He didn’t just take shots at her body. He took shots like she shouldn’t make conversation because she’s not good at it and not to date because she’s not good at it (including throwing the fact that Tom dumped her in her face), mocked her feelings in TLD etc. He has made digs and direct insults at almost all aspects of her personality, except science.

 

FTR, I’d feel the same way if he said the same things to Mrs. Hudson. Both women don’t banter. They aren’t the type to insult anyone with or without provocation so watching either of them be insulted is not entertaining to me. I don’t find it funny, instead I think Sherlock is a jerk. Whereas if he says something to Mycroft or John, I’d expect them to throw barbs back at Sherlock which both have done.

 

But Janine- honestly, for me, Janine is the worst of all, because if Sherlock Holmes, the Benedict Cumberbatch version, said he wanted to propose to me and then, after getting my hopes up I find out that I was just a hapless pawn- and even the dating bit had been a lie, and hanging out while he splashed around in the bath, (perhaps most devastatingly of all), was just a lie- it would be upsetting on a whole different level from someone telling me my lipstick and dress were trying too hard. I know Janine bounced back fairly well- and got her revenge, but that must have really stung.

I think Sherlock was a jerk to Janine too but for some reason this one has never resonated with me that much. Probably more of a reflection of me. Don’t get me wrong I enjoyed her getting revenge on Sherlock but I didn’t feel sorry for her. Maybe because of the way she carries herself (a bit obnoxious) or maybe it’s because I just never took the proposal seriously. Was there a time difference between TSOT and HLV? I can’t remember but I remember thinking how could she possibly be in love with Sherlock or taking this proposal seriously over the intercom? Everything about it seemed like it played as a joke.

[Artemis]

He's still an incredibly flawed man, but ... well, this sounds sappy :smile:, but his heart's in the right place. Probably always was,

 

Yeah.  I think Sherlock is a good man, but personally, I thought he was from the beginning.

 

Would still have liked to have seen why Lestrade, as his own character, suddenly thought so.  But I am more of a literal person.  :P  I appreciate details that are logically fleshed out.