Mycroft Holmes

[Hikari]

Herl,

Obviously you require the services of a maid for such a spacious, well-appointed room.  I volunteer for the job, so long as I can look at your books.  Clean hands only, promise.

Given the present state of my domicile, you'd laugh if you could see it and then take in this next statement, but I actually got paid to clean once upon a time.  For two summers during college, I was a chambermaid in a Victorian hotel.  Along with the Victorian charm came a lack of air conditioning,  and other modern amenities like sufficient electrical outlets for the vacuum cleaner.  So I *can* clean to a professional standard.  I'm lacking proper incentive (fudiciary or other) to do it at my own house is all. 

[Pseudonym]

I have my sneaky, sneaky ways.

[HerlockSholmes]

2 hours ago, Hikari said:

Herl,

Obviously you require the services of a maid for such a spacious, well-appointed room.  I volunteer for the job, so long as I can look at your books.  Clean hands only, promise.

Given the present state of my domicile, you'd laugh if you could see it and then take in this next statement, but I actually got paid to clean once upon a time.  For two summers during college, I was a chambermaid in a Victorian hotel.  Along with the Victorian charm came a lack of air conditioning,  and other modern amenities like sufficient electrical outlets for the vacuum cleaner.  So I *can* clean to a professional standard.  I'm lacking proper incentive (fudiciary or other) to do it at my own house is all. 

No matter how good my intentions are I remain the worlds untidiest man. I try not to be but it never works. I put things down thinking ‘I’ll move it later.’ Nope. I’m always forgetting where I put things and then when I find them I can never work out how they got there. It’s an illness I think☹️

[HerlockSholmes]

1 hour ago, Pseudonym said:

I have my sneaky, sneaky ways.

I bet you do Pseudonym👍

[gerry]

9 hours ago, Hikari said:

And that's a very long answer to your brief question but it turns out that I'm a bit riled up on this subject.  I believe Mary deserved better, and really, the whole cast deserved a more plausible final season.  I think we the viewers surely did as well.

It just seems like they don’t plan ahead too far when they’re writing or if they do they don’t stick to the plan very closely from season to season which in the end is to the detriment of the show.

[Arcadia]

10 hours ago, Hikari said:

 It may have been for only a matter of seconds, but Mary did indeed, for a moment, succeed in killing Sherlock Holmes.  And really, what was the benefit to her to leaving him even a slim chance of survival?  Did she hope that the trauma would, while not being fatal, inflict such amnesia that SH wouldn't remember who shot him when he came to?  Either she, or Moffat, did not think that through.  Had she really wanted to be efficient, she would have hit CAM and Sherlock both, leaving no witnesses to her presence.  I'm still puzzling a bit over how she was able to completely elude John after the deed, he being only steps away in the outer office AND do so while speaking to 999 on her cell phone.

Just for the sake of argument  -- I think that was the point, she let "sentiment rule her head" and spared Sherlock, when the safest thing for her would have been to eliminate all witnesses. I've said it so many times that I'm sure everyone around here would like to stuff the words down my throat, but I think we're meant to follow Sherlock's lead when it comes to Mary. He says her shot was surgery; therefore it was. He says she saved his life; therefore she did. When you look at her actions through Sherlock's eyes, so to speak, they make sense; if you believe him. The problem, of course, is that most rational people aren't willing to suspend THAT much disbelief, not even on the word of Sherlock Holmes!

Quote

 As to what this says about Mr. Moffat's love of playing with his audiences like a cat with its food, well, I wouldn't want to stray into the realm of overly personal remarks, so anybody reading this can fill in their own word for it.

  Good girl.  

Quote

 I believe Mary deserved better, and really, the whole cast deserved a more plausible final season.  I think we the viewers surely did as well.

I tend to agree, but ... it is what it is.

I was struck, though, by the word "plausible." Really, what, if anything about this show has ever been plausible? I've always regarded the character of Sherlock as basically a superhero, complete with cape. Fun it is; plausible it ain't. Except the actors are so freakin' good that they somehow make these implausible characters seem real. It's a curious blend. It seems to work. Maybe even that's why it works?  Hmmm. Have to think about that.

[gerry]

For me plausibility isn’t about whether it would happen in real life since 99% of what occurs in entertainment wouldn’t happen in real life.  Plausibility is more about whether you find what the characters are doing and saying under the circumstances to be believable or make sense.  Of course what you find believable is influenced by what you experience in real life and how you react to the actor portrayals.  Mary being a liar assasin who shot Sherlock wasn’t believable to me given the 2 prior episodes.  They were going for shock value but it didn’t work for me.

Generally when people find that the characters are no longer believable or plausible in a show is when the show phrase “jumped the shark” was coined.

[Arcadia]

Exactly.

I will add though, for those of us who are fans of fantasy (which, imo, is the genre Sherlock most closely adheres to) ... there is the additional onus on the audience to suspend disbelief in the world the creator has presented ... as long as the world is consistent. E.g., we know that, in the real world, The Force isn't very plausible. But in the world of Star Wars, it's a given.

So in Sherlock, I have to look at what the creators are telling us is true, or plausible, in their universe. Coz it sure ain't the universe I live in. In my universe, one man "being" the British government is implausible. So are cabbies who force people to commit suicide, and one friend savagely beating up another without doing him any real harm. But in Sherlock's world, these things are not only possible, but a given.

Is Moftiss consistent in the depiction of their world? I'd say not, alas. Hardly anyone is; even Tolkien made mistakes. But I do see a certain sort of internal logic at work, which is something like; luck (fate? coincidence?) is always on Sherlock's side. A cab will always be coming along just as he hails one. John will always act exactly as predicted. Retired assassins will always deliberately miss the kill shot when they shoot him. Not very plausible in our world, but it seems to be a solid operating principle in his. (Would that I were so fortunate! )

(ETA: and luck, whatever, is on his side because he's smart and observant and works out where his side should be beforehand.)

So I agree that suddenly revealing Mary's past in the way they did was for the shock value; but I accept that, in their world, such things happen. Whether I like that plot development or not (I don't, I think making her an assassin is stupid) is another matter. But if I look at, say, SIB, or HLV, without my "real world" filters on, and just experience how it's constructed, presented, acted, filmed, etc. ... I think they're brilliant. Some of the best things I've ever seen on TV. It's like we were discussing earlier in (I think) a different thread ... I can hold more than one reality in my mind at once, when I want to.

Does that make sense?

[Carol the Dabbler]

It makes perfect sense to me.  It's just that the show was originally very much to my liking, but since then has sporadically skewed off into some weird direction that I don't enjoy watching.  If it were consistently that way, I'd simply stop watching, brilliant or not.  But then the bastards mix in some truly delightful scenes....

[J.P.]

I will link to this meta again, because it's so fitting. I'm more and more convinced by the theory that the makers didn't know what they have created and why it was so loved. So far about magic on set.

http://marsdaydream.tumblr.com/post/157588970757/defying-analysis-sherlock-s3-4

[Carol the Dabbler]

I must not have read that the first time you posted it.  It's brilliant.  I love this part:

Quote

In retrospect

,Sherlock wanted to be two things at once: serious drama, and just-for-fun action. It wanted to be taken seriously, but also not be taken seriously at all. The end result was like whiplash: huge plot twists that had no lasting consequences. The writers wanted to be able to raise the stakes like a drama, but walk away unscathed like an action movie.

That rings so true.  They obviously want a story arc, yet they don't want what happens in one episode to have any effects on the following episodes.  Mary shot Sherlock, you say?  Hey, that was *last* episode!

I do disagree on one specific point, though:  Yes, Mary's team had worked for Mycroft's department.  But I don't recall any evidence that the two of them had ever dealt directly with one another, let alone met face to face.  So, while it does seem plausible that Mary knew of her prior connection to Mycroft, the reverse claim seems pretty shaky to me -- which satisfies my mind regarding why Mycroft didn't warn Sherlock about her.  I doubt that he had any idea who she was.

[Arcadia]

She makes some pretty valid points. I guess it doesn't bother me too much if Sherlock isn't something more, because what it is, is so good. But I do agree about the actions having no consequences; I've complained about that a lot myself.

But I will add; the writers chose the actors. It's not an accident that they chose people who would inhabit their characters. For whatever that's worth.

[Arcadia]

I just picked a couple more of her metas to read. I love this one about HLV, because it explains why I love that episode so much, in spite of its faults.

http://marsdaydream.tumblr.com/post/73698924041/watching-hlv-with-your-mom-can-be-a-good-thing

Off to read more (like I had all the time in the world for this ... aggh!)

[Janyss]

Very stimulative texts and comments...I really don't know if I search for any coherence or plausible things in Sherlock's plots. Not to defend Moftiss, but about the excerpt J.P. posted: AGRA was hired by Lady Smallwood, and when Mycroft became the one in charge, he stopped hiring them. This said, I guess Mary and Mycroft know about each other, according to the phone call in the wedding episode. When watching in retrospect and with T6T, I assumed Mycroft has wanted to believe in some kind of redemption for her, and chose to shut his eyes. And THAT -shutting eyes and ears on the disasters he knew about, or he created himself- is coherent, at least with the character, and may be even with the story (I must admit I never worry much about the plots, anyway): see the way MG conveys this as an actor in TFP. All along s4, he gets stuck in his lies and in the conséquences of his choices: Moriarty visited Euros because Mycroft chose to rely on her about fighting terrorism. He chose between two kinds dangers, in fact, the ones threatening the British citizens, and the ones about baby brother. 

[Carol the Dabbler]

8 hours ago, Janyss said:

I guess Mary and Mycroft know about each other, according to the phone call in the wedding episode. 

Not sure I've rewatched that since seeing Series 4.  What was it he said that gave you that impression?

[Janyss]

I always thought this was the reason why Mycroft didn't want to attend the wedding party. Besides, he says something like "better for the happy couple that I stay as far as possible". The fact that Sherlock doesn't finally mind...well, he trusts Mary at the moment, and he may assume that John has some kind of resentment after knowing that Mycroft was involved in the faked death! And Mary...well, she must know a little about the lake of sharks that spying and irregular military action is. Then in T6T, Sherlock has discovered Mary's past, and of course he doesn't believe a word when Mycroft says that he doesn't know anything about it.

I've also always had the feeling that in TEH, Mycroft knows that John plans to propose to Mary in the posh restaurant...and doesn't warn Sherlock about it, bad big brother him! In his defend, Sherlock seems so convinced that John can't have any life if he's not here!  

[J.P.]

IMO Mycroft wanted to avoid the party. Period.
And for him it wasn't that hard to deduce why John invited Mary to a restaurant that's a bit above his usual level.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Thanks, Janyss.  Since that's basically your interpretation of some fairly non-specific comments, I think I prefer to continue believing that Mycroft was blindsided along with the rest of us.  (As we've seen in TFP, he doesn't actually know everything.)

[Arcadia]

I was amused by the way they deliberately fumbled the ball past us on that one ... when Mycroft and Sherlock are talking about Mary in T6T, there's this:

SHERLOCK: (Referring to AGRA) Team of agents, the best. But you know all that.
MYCROFT: Of course I do. Go on.
SHERLOCK: One of them, Ajay, is looking for Mary, also one of the team.
MYCROFT: Indeed? Well, that’s news to me.

Oh yeah? Which one of those things is news to you, buddy? Ajay being on the team? Or Ajay going after Mary? Or Mary being on the team? You, the audience, get to choose!  

TAB confirms, for me, that Sherlock, at least, thinks Mycroft knows all about Mary. And he's a pretty smart guy.....

So I still like to believe there's an abandoned plot line where Mycroft hired Mary to keep John safe, or something like that, which would mean she had his blessing to be a part of Sherlock's and John's lives. Otherwise I can't make sense of his lack of concern about her.

[gerry]

On 2/27/2018 at 10:09 AM, Carol the Dabbler said:

It's just that the show was originally very much to my liking, but since then has sporadically skewed off into some weird direction that I don't enjoy watching.  If it were consistently that way, I'd simply stop watching, brilliant or not.  But then the bastards mix in some truly delightful scenes....

This I agree with but the problem for me is that it got even worse, I just became bored.  TSOT and T6T bored me especially.  HLV I just didn’t like.

[Carol the Dabbler]

I wouldn't say that any of those episodes bored me, but I thought TEH was unlike the Sherlock program that I knew, TSo3 was cute but fluffy, and HLV was a whole lotta WTF.

[Arcadia]

Cute, fluffy and heart-breaking. That final scene almost had me in tears.

I would be willing to bet a good sum of money that if they'd just kept doing the kinds of episodes they'd done the first two seasons, people would be yelling that they'd run out of ideas. Everyone's a critic....

[Pseudonym]

TFP bored the life out of me. 

[gerry]

HLV being a whole lotta WTF is a perfect description.  

Yeah TEH was a lot of slapstick humor so I can see why you thought it wasn’t very Sherlock.  It did entertain me though because it did have authentic emotional reactions underneath the humor like John being very angry with Sherlock about being lied to even if the anger was mocked by the end.

[Janyss]

21 hours ago, J.P. said:

IMO Mycroft wanted to avoid the party. Period.
And for him it wasn't that hard to deduce why John invited Mary to a restaurant that's a bit above his usual level.

LOL! All those "goldfish" in the room! He really couldn't stand it!

Well, about sending Sherlock right into John's proposal, what better way for Mycroft to show baby brother that YES, other people's lives have followed their trails in spite of his absence? But I guess he didn't completely anticipate the good doctor's reaction :)! 

And about the last episodes: I tend to appreciate HLV more and more, and I go on enjoying T6T and TFP in spite of all the problems raised here and all the "white ropes" of the writers. Damn Moftiss.