Mycroft Holmes

[J.P.]

Get in line, Janyss!

[gerry]

4 hours ago, Hikari said:

I think John still cares about Mary at that point, but he's past the first flush of idealistic romantic love for her.  He knows what she's capable of, and how very wrong he was about her.

I completely agree and it was proven by his attitude towards Mary in T6T. It’s like he stayed married to her out of obligation or doing the right thing but that he didn’t trust her anymore.  He certainly didn’t seem happy, in fact it seemed like he had a hint of resentment at his current circumstances which is why perfect stranger seemed so appealing.  It was a way “out” of his unhappy life.

3 hours ago, Arcadia said:

For me, at least, that's one of the things that elevates it above most television; it's complicated!  

What you consider complicated, I often find merely implausible.

[gerry]

8 hours ago, Boton said:

I think Mycroft relies pretty heavily on "freelancers" (including Mary, although I know he said in TST that they had stopped using freelance help).

Of course, there need to be people doing his legwork!

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, gerry said:

I completely agree and it was proven by his attitude towards Mary in T6T. It’s like he stayed married to her out of obligation or doing the right thing but that he didn’t trust her anymore.  He certainly didn’t seem happy, in fact it seemed like he had a hint of resentment at his current circumstances which is why perfect stranger seemed so appealing.  It was a way “out” of his unhappy life.

What you consider complicated, I often find merely implausible.

Oh well, the whole premise of Sherlock Holmes is implausible. An amateur detective who solves crimes that are "too difficult" for the police? Pshaw!

Besides, I'm afraid I share Sherlock's weakness: I want everything to be clever.  

[gerry]

Well there’s implausible like the men surviving Eurus blowing up Baker Street or the premise of the show and then there’s implausible in terms of the alternative reality they’ve set up.   Like Sherlock not having any clue that Mary was a liar until she shot him.  Some might like to think that was a complicated clever twist but I thought that was ridiculous and dumb.  They made the characters dumb to fit a plot.  Same with Mycroft not having any clue that Eurus was getting out of Sherrinford and had taken it over.  Same with how it was supposed to make sense that John would marry a liar assassin because he likes danger.   I don’t find those moments interesting and wonderfully complicated, I shake my head and think WTF?

[Boton]

12 hours ago, gerry said:

I completely agree and it was proven by his attitude towards Mary in T6T. It’s like he stayed married to her out of obligation or doing the right thing but that he didn’t trust her anymore.  He certainly didn’t seem happy, in fact it seemed like he had a hint of resentment at his current circumstances which is why perfect stranger seemed so appealing.  It was a way “out” of his unhappy life.

What you consider complicated, I often find merely implausible.

I think this is another aspect that suffered from the desire to get things wrapped up by the end of S4.  I think we were supposed to take John at his word in HLV that he was willing to keep Mary's past in the past and work on their marriage, and his frustration and infidelity was an inexcusable reaction to being a new dad and suddenly tied down.  But then they had to overlay that with a rushed plot where Mary's "freelancing" is discovered to be at least in part something heroic she was doing for Mycroft, and there's a whole lot that should have been said/shown that was elided for speed.  That's unfortunate.

[gerry]

Did you really find that we were supposed to find Mary’s past assassin activity as heroic?

[Hikari]

1 hour ago, Boton said:

I think this is another aspect that suffered from the desire to get things wrapped up by the end of S4.  I think we were supposed to take John at his word in HLV that he was willing to keep Mary's past in the past and work on their marriage, and his frustration and infidelity was an inexcusable reaction to being a new dad and suddenly tied down.  But then they had to overlay that with a rushed plot where Mary's "freelancing" is discovered to be at least in part something heroic she was doing for Mycroft, and there's a whole lot that should have been said/shown that was elided for speed.  That's unfortunate.

Yes.  I found the entirety of Season 4 to be unfortunate.

I liked two bits, that I can recall:

1.  Sherlock's complete ignorance of who Margaret Thatcher is.

2.  Red-Balloon Head John.  (SH:  Don't be so hard on yourself!  JW:  It's been there since 9 this morning.)

[Carol the Dabbler]

22 hours ago, Hikari said:

He is genuinely torn up when she dies . .  but how much of that grief is mourning for the death of the love and life he *thought* he was going to have with her--and the knowledge that his daughter has been deprived of her mother?

I'm pretty sure that at least some of his grief is due to guilt over the role he played in her demise -- coming up with the idea of hiding a tracking device in her memory stick (is that even possible?), then tailing her with Sherlock and coercing her into returning to London.  If I were him, I'd be thinking she might well be alive now if I'd just let her leave -- and she did promise to come back as soon as she thought it was safe.

4 hours ago, gerry said:

Did you really find that we were supposed to find Mary’s past assassin activity as heroic?

I'm still up in the air over that.  She said that if John knew the truth, he wouldn't love her anymore -- but then why did she hand over that flash drive that he hadn't even known existed?  That still doesn't make sense to me.  CAM claimed that she had been "naughty," but his "truth" is whatever's convenient for him at the moment.  Then we see her attempting a heroic rescue at the embassy, which implies that she was at least not entirely evil -- either she was a gray-area good guy (with "good" being defined as "on our side") or she would work for whoever paid her.

[gerry]

5 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

I'm pretty sure that at least some of his grief is due to guilt over the role he played in her demise...

I'm still up in the air over that.  She said that if John knew the truth, he wouldn't love her anymore...-- either she was a gray-area good guy (with "good" being defined as "on our side") or she would work for whoever paid her.

And maybe guilt over not being able to truly forgive her like he thought he should?  I wouldn’t think he should if I were him but I assume he thought he should.

The line was what I remember most too which made me think she was an active assassin who worked for just about anyone.

[Arcadia]

5 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

I'm still up in the air over that.  She said that if John knew the truth, he wouldn't love her anymore -- but then why did she hand over that flash drive that he hadn't even known existed?  That still doesn't make sense to me.  CAM claimed that she had been "naughty," but his "truth" is whatever's convenient for him at the moment.  Then we see her attempting a heroic rescue at the embassy, which implies that she was at least not entirely evil -- either she was a gray-area good guy (with "good" being defined as "on our side") or she would work for whoever paid her.

I with you on this one ... T6T definitely gives me the impression they either forgot what they said about her in S3, or they changed their minds about her role. I was betting all along that she'd turn out to be a "good guy," but I expected more of an explanation of the "you won't love me" remark in that case.. It's almost like they think "assassin" is a synonym for "mercenary."

[Carol the Dabbler]

3 hours ago, Arcadia said:

It's almost like they think "assassin" is a synonym for "mercenary."

That's the impression I get too.  Maybe they think "assassin" sounds more exciting.  Or that nobody would know what "mercenary" means.

[gerry]

But when they showed the flashbacks of Mary as an assassin she wasn’t acting or dressed like a soldier so how could they not of intended the difference?  

[Carol the Dabbler]

It's my impression that mercenaries don't necessarily wear uniforms or fight in battles.  They're basically guns for hire, and may also act as snipers, spies, etc., as needed.

[gerry]

My understanding was mercenaries are soldiers for hire.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

You both are correct. They can be hired soldiers but any hired gun regardless of soldier status counts.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Also, regular soldiers don't always wear uniforms and fight in regular battles.  They can act as spies, snipers, etc.  I would imagine that would apply even more to mercenaries, especially if they are be hired for their specific skills.

[Boton]

On 2/15/2018 at 10:33 AM, gerry said:

Did you really find that we were supposed to find Mary’s past assassin activity as heroic?

 

On 2/15/2018 at 8:24 PM, Arcadia said:

I with you on this one ... T6T definitely gives me the impression they either forgot what they said about her in S3, or they changed their minds about her role. I was betting all along that she'd turn out to be a "good guy," but I expected more of an explanation of the "you won't love me" remark in that case.. It's almost like they think "assassin" is a synonym for "mercenary."

I'm with Arcadia a bit on this one.  I think they decided to emphasize her role as a mercenary, which can indeed be heroic (as well as profitable).  They sort of glossed over the "she's gone a bit freelance" comment from CAM by having Mycroft say that he stopped using freelancers after the AGRA disaster. However, I always assumed CAM's comment referred to Mary being hired by a private individual or non-governmental agency to off an enemy, which can be ethically grey.

The only way for me to make sense of both S3 and S4 Mary is to go back and assume that Mary thinks that John will feel that any killing she ever committed was unjustified and enough to make him not love her.  I find that a stretch, given that John's a soldier and has pretty much admitted to killing people, so he would be in the best position of anyone to understand her motives.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Yeah, to me, the whole Mary thing just doesn't bear close scrutiny, at least not if taken at face value (and even ignoring CAM's remarks, 'cause I don't trust him).  Hard for me to come up with an in-universe explanation -- I suspect that the Moftisses either changed their minds a bit between S3 and S4, or else just went with whatever appealed to then at the moment.

[gerry]

How was Mary received in series 3?  Supposedly TBB was a reaction to complaints about how they write women or how Sherlock treats women (a very clumsy attempt in my opinion) but maybe they changed course with her for the same reason.  I do think it’s shortsighted for them to go from HLV Mary is a liar assassin who shoots Sherlock and used Janine treatment buy no wait she’s a heroic victim in T6T and finally patron saint in TLD/TFP.  You could get whiplash from all of those characterizations for one character in 3 episodes.

[Arcadia]

12 hours ago, Boton said:

 

I'm with Arcadia a bit on this one.  I think they decided to emphasize her role as a mercenary, which can indeed be heroic (as well as profitable).  They sort of glossed over the "she's gone a bit freelance" comment from CAM by having Mycroft say that he stopped using freelancers after the AGRA disaster. However, I always assumed CAM's comment referred to Mary being hired by a private individual or non-governmental agency to off an enemy, which can be ethically grey.

The only way for me to make sense of both S3 and S4 Mary is to go back and assume that Mary thinks that John will feel that any killing she ever committed was unjustified and enough to make him not love her.  I find that a stretch, given that John's a soldier and has pretty much admitted to killing people, so he would be in the best position of anyone to understand her motives.

 

11 hours ago, Carol the Dabbler said:

Yeah, to me, the whole Mary thing just doesn't bear close scrutiny, at least not if taken at face value (and even ignoring CAM's remarks, 'cause I don't trust him).  Hard for me to come up with an in-universe explanation -- I suspect that the Moftisses either changed their minds a bit between S3 and S4, or else just went with whatever appealed to then at the moment.

 

Yeah, I have no reason to believe anything Magnussen said, so that part doesn't bother me. 

I'm in the same boat as Boton; the closest I can get to an "in-universe" explanation follows on Mary's comment, in T6T, that John (and I paraphrase) "didn't make it easy" by being "so perfect all the time." Which revealed that she had a pretty romanticized view of John, imo. So I can sort of believe she might've thought he was too good for her, and wouldn't love her if he knew she had a rather questionable profession. And John did say, in TEH, that they hadn't known each other very long. That could easily translate to not knowing each other very well, either.

Still doesn't explain the term "assassin", though. Although I believe that was John's term, in HLV; Mary neither confirmed or denied it, as far as I can recall.

But if that was a red herring, and Moftiss wanted to ultimately reveal that Mary was actually a hero (which is what I was betting on), they blew it. To do that, they would have needed to disprove the "assassin" label for once and for all, and they never did.

So many missed opportunities in S4. Why, why, why? To me, it all points to a last-minute decision to scrap a fifth season....

[Pseudonym]

I found where Mycroft goes when he fancies a burger - this is apparently part of the Burger King in Cardiff. 

From the outside this branch in Cardiff city centre looks a Burger King like any other. But when you go upstairs, through a couple of doors and into an area marked "No Entry" you find this directly above the main restaurant . The Mahogany Bar (as the room was once called) was first established in 1905 by wine importers Fulton Dunlop Company Limited but it’s believed a public house or inn had existed on the site since at least 1720. Now, it's used as an office or for Burger King staff meetings.

[Hikari]

That looks just like I imagine the library at the Diogenes to look.  Much too grand for the Stranger's Room.  They'd keep that small and intimate (and soundproofed) so no visiting Strangers would have to speak too loudly.  Mycroft of course wouldn't stand on queue at the counter to place his order.  It would be brought to him by an immaculately gloved flunky on a silver tray with all offensive branding packaging removed.

[Hikari]

On ‎2‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 7:48 PM, gerry said:

How was Mary received in series 3?  Supposedly TBB was a reaction to complaints about how they write women or how Sherlock treats women (a very clumsy attempt in my opinion) but maybe they changed course with her for the same reason.  I do think it’s shortsighted for them to go from HLV Mary is a liar assassin who shoots Sherlock and used Janine treatment buy no wait she’s a heroic victim in T6T and finally patron saint in TLD/TFP.  You could get whiplash from all of those characterizations for one character in 3 episodes.

Mary was a polarizing figure from Day 1, just based on the fact of her existence, before any skeletons in her closet were revealed.  The anti-Mary faction was primarily the Johnlock shippers (which are legion) who did not want anything disturbing the cozy bachelor/pseudo-homoerotic bubble at Baker Street.  Canon Mary is a sweet, beautiful and resourceful woman, but despite how happy she makes Watson, matrimony busted up the bromance (I mean, in the fraternal sense) and nothing was ever quite the same again.  Once Watson decamped Baker Street for marriage, an unavoidable distance grows between the dynamic duo.  They continue to get the band back together and play gigs sporadically, but nothing engenders intimacy with somebody like sharing a house.  Many decades before the Beatles were even a gleam in their Daddies' eyes, Mary Morstan was the original Yoko Ono.  But she was never a murderess for hire.  She went to her early grave a sainted angel, and though Watson would marry again (after an interval of 8 years), Mary was his abiding true love.

Amanda's brief in the early going was to play a 21st century version of the sweet, kind, solicitous, supportive fiancé, albeit one with a career, and if she exhibited flashes of unexpected talents (like being able to quickly decipher a skip code), well, we always gave her credit for a brain.  In the second episode in which she appeared, the wedding episode, our 21st century Mary hewed to Canon-form by actively encouraging her soon-to-be spouse to continue his association with Sherlock Holmes, at any and all hours, no matter the inconvenience to herself or her desire for quality time with John.  So far, so good.  The fact that she remained cool-headed while a psycho threatened one of her wedding guests and was instrumental in heading off an attempted suicide by the same gentleman because she instantly recalled his room number at the hotel--a detail that neither Watson nor Holmes concerned themselves with--it still wasn't ominous.  It was merely a demonstration of the new Mrs. Watson's pluck and memory for details . . knowing in which rooms her wedding guests were lodged, especially one so important to her husband was within her bailiwick to know.  So I believe at the end of S3:2, and even into S3:3, the general impression of Mary was a favorable one among most except the more rabid Johnlock contingent.   Even though she wasted no time in tying John down with a paternal responsibility.  Or let us say, they both did that with a contraceptive failure.

Then came the shot heard 'round the fandom, and things changed.  Boy did they.  Even thentofore Mary supporters were hard-pressed to still like the woman who nearly killed her husband's best friend in the most cold-blooded manner possible.  Despite her assurances that she only meant to put him out of commission so she could get away, immediately calling the ambulance . . . Sherlock flatlined on the table.  It may have been for only a matter of seconds, but Mary did indeed, for a moment, succeed in killing Sherlock Holmes.  And really, what was the benefit to her to leaving him even a slim chance of survival?  Did she hope that the trauma would, while not being fatal, inflict such amnesia that SH wouldn't remember who shot him when he came to?  Either she, or Moffat, did not think that through.  Had she really wanted to be efficient, she would have hit CAM and Sherlock both, leaving no witnesses to her presence.  I'm still puzzling a bit over how she was able to completely elude John after the deed, he being only steps away in the outer office AND do so while speaking to 999 on her cell phone.

Carol is right--the whole Mary story line does not bear close scrutiny at all.  Even from a hundred yards, the gaping holes are still visible.

Amanda A. said that this Reveal of Mary was a complete and utter surprise to her.  She found out the direction they were taking her character in at the same time everyone else in the cast did, when she received the Top Secret script pages for that episode.  She admits that had she had foreknowledge, she would have played Mary quite differently from the start.  I presume that Moffat wanted to avoid having her influenced thusly because he needed her (and us) to believe that Mary Morstan was exactly what she appeared to be to John.  Well, that ploy worked very well, judging by the sickening shock that befell the fandom at the sight of Mary dressed like a ninja assassin with a gun in her hand.   As to what this says about Mr. Moffat's love of playing with his audiences like a cat with its food, well, I wouldn't want to stray into the realm of overly personal remarks, so anybody reading this can fill in their own word for it.  As a Gotcha! moment, it was very effective.

Only then Moffiss found they'd somewhat painted themselves into a corner.  Sherlock had neutralized the CAM threat to the Watsons, so there was no further need to exploit Mary's Dark Past.  But they couldn't well just have her revert to being a happy suburban Mummy baking cookies after what they had made her into.  At this point, Mary should have left John and Rosie and gone to work for Five, never to be heard from again . . but Mofftiss thought (rather erroneously) that having Mary shot in front of John's eyes would somehow make things better all around.  Anyway, they were tired of Mary, and at least hewed to Canon by killing her off soon after the marriage (though Canon-Mary was at least allowed 3 or 4 years of happiness with John before she bought the farm.)  But there were two episodes yet to fill up . . So how do you top 'Our Hero Doctor Detective Married a Secret Assassin Who Tried to Kill His Best Friend and Lied to Him Since the Day They Met?'  Mofftiss found a way:  'Our Hero Consulting Detective's Psycho Little Sister Killed *His* Best Friend and is Now Ruling the World from a Shutter Island 'Secure' (haha) Mental Facility.'

And that's a very long answer to your brief question but it turns out that I'm a bit riled up on this subject.  I believe Mary deserved better, and really, the whole cast deserved a more plausible final season.  I think we the viewers surely did as well.

[HerlockSholmes]

1 hour ago, Pseudonym said:

I found where Mycroft goes when he fancies a burger - this is apparently part of the Burger King in Cardiff. 

From the outside this branch in Cardiff city centre looks a Burger King like any other. But when you go upstairs, through a couple of doors and into an area marked "No Entry" you find this directly above the main restaurant . The Mahogany Bar (as the room was once called) was first established in 1905 by wine importers Fulton Dunlop Company Limited but it’s believed a public house or inn had existed on the site since at least 1720. Now, it's used as an office or for Burger King staff meetings.

How did you get a photograph of my study?😀