Mycroft Holmes

[Janyss]

Even if I'm completly caught in Mycroft's character, in his relation with Sherlock, in the way MG plays all his sides, I have to admit he has dark sides (and to be fair, I also love him BECAUSE OF his dark sides, deeds, and the way he has to live with them). We can't but aknowledge he tries to make treaties with the various sides of the absolute evil, Euros of course, but also Moriarty or MAgnussen. But (at least in Euros and Moriarty's case) he does it with a knife under the throat (that's a French expression, I don't know if it exists in English, but even with word-to-word translation, seems clear), wanting to avoid people suffering in the end.

 

Neville Chamberlain exactly did the same (of course probably with thought for his political career and hate towards communism, and we know today that he was wrong, but we have to think of what his time was): he wanted to prevent a crush like WWI had been, hoped he would be the saviour of peace, thus underestimated Hitler's danger and tried to deal with him. But may be the judgement on Chamberlain is more severe than mine in English-speaking world opinion, and that would be why a comparison with Mycroft could upset some people. 

[Artemis]

I don't actually understand all the Mycroft hate . . .

 

Is there a lot of Mycroft hate? I wasn't aware of that, I think Mycroft is great!

 

I do not acknowledge Eurus as a Holmes.

Ditto. -_-

[Janyss]

Well, as much as I love this Mycroft, I must admit it's easy to hate him. If you consider that fiction works, with heroes, gives us a sight on good and evil, clearly Mycroft is not on "the side of angels", and if we just think of what he really DID...Oh, my God: tried to manipulate a mastermind criminal, abduct people, enjailed them, etc...He puts us in front of a question: what about the moral values in front of problems you sometimes have to face? Easy to hate him for that!

[T.o.b.y]

I don't hate Mycroft but I also don't like him. To me, he comes across as cold, smug and overbearing. And the way he cares about and for Sherlock isn't very healthy for either of them, although I suppose it's the best he can do.

 

One of the good things about S4, for me, was how it put an end to Sherlock being made to feel inferior to Mycroft.

[Janyss]

Many people with brothers and sisters would aknowledge that despite caring sometimes they act the wrong way with them...Mycroft is nor the perfect elder brother neither the worse.

 

About my comparaison with Chamberlain, I wouldn't like it to upset British citizens, or other persons caring about British history. Here in France we have our own memories issues about the war time and its weak politiciens. Besides, we needed the work by Robert Paxton, an American historian, to face the reality that all French people were not resistents,far from that. Thus please don't think I'm in a moral judgement here, I wouldn't allow myself such a thing.

[Boton]

I don't hate Mycroft but I also don't like him. To me, he comes across as cold, smug and overbearing. And the way he cares about and for Sherlock isn't very healthy for either of them, although I suppose it's the best he can do.

 

One of the good things about S4, for me, was how it put an end to Sherlock being made to feel inferior to Mycroft.

 

Well, this is the place for us to do a complete 180 from the Molly Hooper discussion and me to say that I like Mycroft, a lot, mostly because I identify with him.  I've always said it is Irene's wardrobe and Mycroft's personality.  Mycroft is me: the fastidiousness, the pragmatism, the fact that he can be both annoyingly superior and amazingly childish in the same conversation.  (Hey,  I never said I thought I had all his *good* qualities!)

 

To me, Mycroft is the perfect middle ground between the Holmes siblings.  (And yeah, I'm tempted to write Eurus off as a fever dream too.) But Eurus is unemotional to the extreme and amoral.  Sherlock, as much as I love him, wanted  to be a *pirate,* for heaven's sake. I can't be having that kind of emotional performance in my life.

 

But being the British government?  That is, being a pirate at a very high level, where you do the calculus on whether the lives saved are worth the lives lost, and then go for it?  Yeah, I can get into that.  Especially if it can be done without wrinkling one's suit or interrupting tea time.

 

(I still have a yen to write a Mycroft/Smallwood series. I have the first one in my head, but I keep holding back because, even though I will write it for me, no one will much like it. It would present a back-story on Mycroft that is not the typical head canon, and that keeps me from actually writing it down.  But maybe I'll get brave while I'm on vacation, because heaven knows I've told myself that story enough in the shower lately.)

[Artemis]

I really don't see anything to hate about Mycroft. True, he sometimes walks a moral line, but that's the nature of working for the greater good. I think he does the best he can, and that's all you can really ask of anyone, especially someone in his position. Somebody has to do it, and I say better him than someone more interested in their own personal gain than the welfare of the nation.

 

I also disagree with Mummy Holmes' assertion that Sherlock always was "the grownup." We don't really know all that Mycroft had to deal with growing up, but I get the impression that a lot of responsibility was placed or left on his shoulders, which is an unfair position to put any child in, and then even more unfair to reprimand him later in life for the way he handled it. He might not always have made the best decisions, but no one can; and again, I think he always tried to do what he thought was best for all concerned. It might seem cold, but again, the greater good often is. I can't hate anyone for that, and frankly I see some of myself in there.

[Janyss]

Boton, I'm looking forwards to reading your fanfics. I totally understand your needing time to write: I have written a few fics for "Person of interest" and I know when you have in mind you just want to write it right now! And about Mycroft and the lady...mm, sounds interesting!

 

Artémis, agree. But sometimes you don't like people who put you in front of the fact that some decisions are heavy. And very often, even if you do your best, you don't get any reward or aknowledgement. That is obviously what happened in the Holmes family for me, that is the meaning of mummy Holmes' line. I imagine Mycroft had a heavy childhood.

 

Poor Mycroft. Sure you need a conversation about literature and British history (with a hug). I volunteer. Interrogation room right now.

[J.P.]

Get in line!

 

Seriously, an all-over hate for Mycroft?
I was there when at the first Sherlocked the mod said to Mark Gatis that in his opinion Mycroft is a great big brother. The room EXPLODED!

[Janyss]

Crowded line, I assume :)!

 

I take it this meeting was a great moment. What was MG's reaction to the mod's words? Did he mention other viewpoints about that character he completely -or not far from that-CREATED?

[Hikari]

 

I don't hate Mycroft but I also don't like him. To me, he comes across as cold, smug and overbearing. And the way he cares about and for Sherlock isn't very healthy for either of them, although I suppose it's the best he can do.

 

One of the good things about S4, for me, was how it put an end to Sherlock being made to feel inferior to Mycroft.

 

Well, this is the place for us to do a complete 180 from the Molly Hooper discussion and me to say that I like Mycroft, a lot, mostly because I identify with him.  I've always said it is Irene's wardrobe and Mycroft's personality.  Mycroft is me: the fastidiousness, the pragmatism, the fact that he can be both annoyingly superior and amazingly childish in the same conversation.  (Hey,  I never said I thought I had all his *good* qualities!)

 

To me, Mycroft is the perfect middle ground between the Holmes siblings.  (And yeah, I'm tempted to write Eurus off as a fever dream too.) But Eurus is unemotional to the extreme and amoral.  Sherlock, as much as I love him, wanted  to be a *pirate,* for heaven's sake. I can't be having that kind of emotional performance in my life.

 

But being the British government?  That is, being a pirate at a very high level, where you do the calculus on whether the lives saved are worth the lives lost, and then go for it?  Yeah, I can get into that.  Especially if it can be done without wrinkling one's suit or interrupting tea time.

 

(I still have a yen to write a Mycroft/Smallwood series. I have the first one in my head, but I keep holding back because, even though I will write it for me, no one will much like it. It would present a back-story on Mycroft that is not the typical head canon, and that keeps me from actually writing it down.  But maybe I'll get brave while I'm on vacation, because heaven knows I've told myself that story enough in the shower lately.)

 

 

Whatever Irene Adler thinks she is, she's small fry compared to Lady Smallwood.  When her Ladyship wants to, she can freeze beer with her imperious looks.

 

Mycroft Holmes is used to being In Charge at all times, but in the boudoir with Lady Smallwood, I think he would happily relinquish control.  Maybe he'd even let her spank him.  No 'let' about it, really.

 

"Drop your trousers now, Mycroft Holmes.  I order you."  Turnabout is fair play, Myc.  You order people to put their trousers on . . you get to take yours off.

[Boton]

Ahem.  Goodness, Hikari.  You make a woman blush here.

 

Actually, a lot of fics like to put Myc in the submissive position with his partner, but I never see it. And part of my evolving and yet-unwritten Mycroft/Smallwood stories would have them very much as equals. I think that would be the situation in which he would most enjoy himself because he so rarely gets to be there.

[J.P.]

Crowded line, I assume :)!

 

I take it this meeting was a great moment. What was MG's reaction to the mod's words? Did he mention other viewpoints about that character he completely -or not far from that-CREATED?

 

Mark was visibly pleased. :D

Here is a transcript of the whole talk.

http://www.sherlockology.com/news/2015/6/4/sherlocked-steven-mark-transcript-040615

 

Ah, yes, the actual word was smashing. Smashing big brother.

[Arcadia]

I don't hate Mycroft, but if he were my big brother, I'd probably resent his interference too. And his smugness.  My brother used to drive me crazy by being so much better at everything than I was, and then laughing about it. Jerk.    But I wouldn't trade him for anything.  ^_^

[Janyss]

This reminds me of the phone conversation between Sherlock and Mycroft during John's wedding celebration. Big brother is obviously trying to build (or rebuild) links with his brother by blood, now that Sherlock's brother by choice gets married. Mycroft sounds quite sure he'll be closer to Sherlock in this talk. OK, when you know season 4 story you also understand this in an other way (Mycroft needs to keep a control on his brother's memories), but I'm sure he just would like to improve the relationship. And of course, it turns that he's thrown away by Sherlock...

[Arcadia]

Did Sherlock throw Mycroft away? I didn't think so ... but I did think that he finally realized he doesn't have to live up to big brother's expectations, because big brother has turned out to be just as humanly flawed as the rest of us. Another way to say it is that Sherlock has decided he'd rather be more like John than like Mycroft ... but Mycroft's still in his life. He's just not Sherlock's arch-enemy any more.

[gerry]

What expectations does Mycroft have for Sherlock? I know Mycroft’s a snob but I never saw anything from Mycroft to Sherlock except wanting to protect him and of course help with the occasional government case. Mycroft definitely seems frustrated with Sherlock like everyone else at one point or another and always seems like he’s monitoring Sherlock but Sherlock’s actions necessitate that don’t they? It’s SHerlock’s resentment of Mycroft that Mycroft appears bothered by.

[Janyss]

Arcadia, I really have the feeling that the French version conveys a very tense and incisive Sherlock, specifically with Mycroft. But even here in France we can see that the series is also about making the two brothers by blood closer, even if Sherlock is reluctant in front of Mycroft's compromissions with evil, should they be for the family's or the country's greater good.

[Carol the Dabbler]

Janyss, I take it that the Sherlock episodes shown on French TV have been dubbed into French? Have you ever seen/heard the original English versions?

[Janyss]

Yes, they've been. With DVDs I could watch in English but "flesh is weak", and I often turn to French version. I've watched a few of my favourite scènes in English anyway.

 

I'd say French version is good, but like in all translations, it brings something different (if you go into détails, of course, the story, the main cult lines are the same, for eg Anderson asked to shut up as the IQ of the street has to be protected :) !): I think Mycroft and Sherlock's relation is very tense in French, more than in English. Mycroft's intonations are more acerbic, and Sherlock's are more resentful. It's brought both by choice of words and intonations.

 

Moreover, may be we get different meanings: some French words are part of things that brought me to my assertion that Euros embodies indoctrination. In the scene with the governor of Sherringford, the French version uses "she converts people to her cause" ("elle convertit les gens à sa cause") AND "she enslaves them" (elle les asservit"). I'll have to rewatch (yeah!) but I think in English we only have "enslave". 

 

Edit: done. We also have two verbs in English ("recruit" and "enslave"), but "recruit" may refer less to ideological or religious indoctrination than "convert" 

[Carol the Dabbler]

Right -- "recruit" normally refers to a *voluntary* choice, such as offering somebody a job.

 

I suppose there are many times when a translator has no choice but to change the meaning, because there is no exact translation -- and then the question is, which way to change it.

[Janyss]

"Recruit" exists in French ("recruter"), but I'd bet the translators may have done the same interpretation as I did. I'll ask other French fans if they felt the same.

[Artemis]

Did Sherlock throw Mycroft away?

Regarding that, my feeling was always that Mycroft genuinely desired to improve the relationship, but Sherlock wasn't having any of it. At least not until S3, post-Reichenbach, when we see him starting to ease up on the enmity a bit and become more receptive to interaction with his brother (and trying to fill John's absence with other people). Whether the story he told Anderson about surviving the fall is true or not, I think Mycroft did help him somehow, even if it was after the fact; and like Mrs. Hudson said, "Family is all we have in the end." Especially with John's indefinite absence from his life at that point and his family in on the secret, I think Sherlock is starting to see that and appreciate it, even if only a tiny bit.

 

Whatever the cause of the feud and resentment between them, I think the biggest obstacle lies in the fact that both boys are stubborn and not too given to compromise or accommodation; and although Mycroft wants to reconcile, he still wants it on his terms, which is probably what gets Sherlock's goat. I have an older brother so I kind of know how it is; they think they're right about everything.

[Arcadia]

 I have an older brother so I kind of know how it is; they think they're right about everything.

 

 

Boy do they ever! :d Even more frustrating ... they often really are.

[Shadow Dweller]

[waves to Boton] I am back and still wanting that fic. :3