Episode 4.0: The Abominable Bride (alias The Special)

[Arcadia]

See? That's it, I'm definitely over the hill, I have no idea who Rick Glenn and Grimes are.

 

I spotted Thor, Loki, Iron Man, House, the Who gang (but I don't know which one), Vader, Magneto and Prof X, and the rest are a complete mystery to me.

[sittything]

See? That's it, I'm definitely over the hill, I have no idea who Rick Glenn and Grimes are.

 

I spotted Thor, Loki, Iron Man, House, the Who gang (but I don't know which one), Vader, Magneto and Prof X, and the rest are a complete mystery to me.

 

Rick Grimes (first name last name), Glenn, and Daryl are all Walking Dead characters.     

[Arcadia]

Is Daryl related to Daryl and the other Daryl? :d

[T.o.b.y]

I appreciated Gatiss' joke about the whole show being the imaginings of a Victorian man... lol

 

Well, the way they did the Special, that would be a valid interpretation. The first time I saw it, I was mostly trying to figure out what timeline is supposed to be "real", and I think there's a case to be made for both. I just like the modern version better, so I decided to go with that.

 

[Arcadia]

Even the modern Sherlock is a bit Victorian anyway, so yeah, it works either way!

[J.P.]

 

I appreciated Gatiss' joke about the whole show being the imaginings of a Victorian man... lol

Am I perverse to think this is just awesome and loving that kind of ambiguity? Not to mention loving the brain which products it?

[sittything]

Is Daryl related to Daryl and the other Daryl? :D

 

I have no idea what this is.... lol

[Arcadia]

From the Bob Newhart show. :P
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TN6UAzYY8qg

[J.P.]

Some more ramblings about TAB after re-watching it:

 

I think the term Mind Palace doesn't really fit Mycroft's description as a memory technique. Appledore was a Mind Palace. Sherlock's whatever is something more. And TAB is surely not just Sherlock searching for an answer in his memory. It's more like semi-controlled imaginary journey, which is another technique. You can even see how it's constructed: at first he just builds a stage, immersing himself in the Victorian world. At the moment he says "enough" to Mary and John, the stage is indeed set, and he's ready to let go and start the actual journey.

Holmes and Watson are so damn aggressive. Both. But what if the picture of Sherlock (and John) is more accurate in TAB, because what we see in the show is John's "official" version, in which he makes a hero out of a drug addict?

Wear the damn hat! - does Sherlock feel oppressed by John and his attempts to make him into a hero?

Have you noticed how mad Sherlock became when John insisted on the existence of the ghost? It's almost like his highly emotional reaction in HOB after seeing the hound. And it also reminds me of Mr Carmichael's reaction on his wife's questions about the letter. Which seems to happen often when the tough guys are confronted with questions about their feelings/fears.

Sherlock is so shocked seeing the YOU letters on the wall and the tag on the body, because he senses that Jim intrudes his inner world. But wasn't it what he wanted to do? Well, maybe not. Maybe he noticed it later and needed to go deeper, to finally confront him eye to eye, inviting him from the deep of the padded cell into his home. Confronting his inner demon...

When Mycroft shows him the tag, there is a "ghostly" sound that turns into Sherlock's voice speaking "hhhhhhow did you get this"? Have you noticed that?

Why, actually, Sherlock knows about the waterfall and that Moriarty is a maths professor?
Why does Mycroft use the term cauldron? Is it a common term to describe the bottom of a waterfall?

What can be the case Moriarty is referring to? Why is Holmes so confused? Is it because the outer world interferes with his vision (the plane lands) and he needs to stay "in"? And as Jim keeps saying: "it's on the tip of my tongue", the last repeat it's Sherlock saying this, but you cannot say who's voice it actually is.
There is the Bart's roof music theme playing subtly in the background in the scene.

It's never the fall - it's the landing. What the hell is that? Maybe only a signal from outside that the plane has landed? But it feels like a hidden important hint on something essential (beside it being a simple truth due to physics and anatomy)
The elephant in the room falls down... Is it only a nod to the canon?

In the plane when Mycroft says: "I was there for you", there is this strange sound in background again.
Morphine or cocaine? Sherlock says this with Johns voice this time. Is it a clue that all figures in TAB are Sherlock's inner representation of other people?
Why should Sherlock make a list when he was flying away from Mycroft? And why John would ask him if he just have seen the list... okay, it happens during the transition back to 1985, so it's allowed to make no sense... But they are possible clues that the plane scene is not real. (do I start to sound like some crazy conspiracy theorist?)

What I would really like to know is what the women were chanting in Latin.

 

Well it's still mostly questions and very few answers. And I'm probably repeating your or mine former posts...

[Arcadia]

Holmes and Watson are so damn aggressive. Both. But what if the picture of Sherlock (and John) is more accurate in TAB, because what we see in the show is John's "official" version, in which he makes a hero out of a drug addict?

Maybe, but I don't think so, because it seems to me that they go to some lengths to show that Sherlock's view of things is rather distorted. (Hyper-fat Mycroft, hyper-smart Mary, hyper-rational himself, :P etc. )

 

Have you noticed how mad Sherlock became when John insisted on the existence of the ghost? It's almost like his highly emotional reaction in HOB after seeing the hound. And it also reminds me of Mr Carmichael's reaction on his wife's questions about the letter. Which seems to happen often when the tough guys are confronted with questions about their feelings/fears.

I'm guessing you're referring to the moment in the hall when they bump into each other after Carmichael is found dead?

 

I was a bit thrown by his fury there at first, but later I thought it was because he was angry with himself for failing to save Carmichael ... and like many people, when he's angry with himself he takes it out on everyone around him. So it was about his feelings in the sense that he was feeling like a failure at that moment, but I didn't associate it with fear. I think it's pretty scary being on the receiving end of his anger, though!

 

Why, actually, Sherlock knows about the waterfall and that Moriarty is a maths professor?

I think maybe I'm not sure what you're asking. It's all in his head, so whatever he "knows" is whatever he thinks, right? Or am I missing your point?

 

Why does Mycroft use the term cauldron? Is it a common term to describe the bottom of a waterfall?

Yes, fairly common.

 

What can be the case Moriarty is referring to? Why is Holmes so confused? Is it because the outer world interferes with his vision (the plane lands) and he needs to stay "in"? And as Jim keeps saying: "it's on the tip of my tongue", the last repeat it's Sherlock saying this, but you cannot say who's voice it actually is.

There is the Bart's roof music theme playing subtly in the background in the scene.

I've always thought "the case" was Moriarty shooting himself, and the music they use there just reinforces that for me. And I think you're right ... it's not that Holmes is confused so much as he's being shaken out of his "dream" by the plane landing, but he's not ready to wake up.

 

I am a bit mystified as to what is meant by "the tip of my tongue." Maybe it just means he's on the verge of the answer but waking up is keeping him from getting all the way there?

 

For the rest of your questions ... I haven't a clue! :d

[J.P.]

 

I think maybe I'm not sure what you're asking. It's all in his head, so whatever he "knows" is whatever he thinks, right? Or am I missing your point?

Oh, I see, my mind played a trick on me (maybe I was too immersed in my Sherlock Palace and stumbled upon a virus?) The thought was actually "how Sherlock can know the canon?", but it makes no sense because it's ALL canon, more or less. And then, in the night I thought about TRF and it became somehow logical: The painting he found, Rich Brook... So Bart's roof became a Waterfall.

 

Wait...

What if the Waterfall scene was a reenacting of the one at Bart's roof? A version where John would come to help him, where Sherlock would not send him away to protect him? Is it a sign that Sherlock is regretting his decision and his subconscious is telling him that indeed friends protect people? (Woah, I'm getting goosebumps from this thought)

 

Oh, Arcadia, thanks for the nudge. I definitely think better while "talking" to you.

[Arcadia]

Hey, I don't know about you, but if I didn't have this forum to prowl through, I wouldn't have even half the thoughts I have! Wait ... that may not be a good thing ....
:P
 
I like that idea, that Sherlock (at the waterfall) is in some way acknowledging to himself that he -- gasp -- made a mistake by excluding John from his plans in TRF. Well, he IS new at this friendship thing, I guess ... so how was he to know that some friends want to be involved when you're in trouble?
 
Wahhh, now I want to know where they go with this! NOW, not months from now!!!!!

[J.P.]

Maybe it's better not to know... :P

[Arcadia]

Urk. Don't say that, now I'm scared......

[J.P.]

Actually it's quite strange that Sherlock was so surprised by Jim intruding his vision. After all, the goal of the whole procedure was to find out the truth about his re-appearance in the real world. What is also strange - why taking the long and complicated way of reenacting an old case, when he could just go down to the padded cell and interrogate Jim himself? (okay, this is a stupid question - there wouldn't be enough stuff to fill the whole episode, especially a Victorian one :P)

 

Further, kind-of-solving the Bride case brought nothing new - we know that Moriarty was a group of people from the first episode. Or do I oversee something?

[Arcadia]

Actually it's quite strange that Sherlock was so surprised by Jim intruding his vision. After all, the goal of the whole procedure was to find out the truth about his re-appearance in the real world. What is also strange - why taking the long and complicated way of reenacting an old case, when he could just go down to the padded cell and interrogate Jim himself? (okay, this is a stupid question - there wouldn't be enough stuff to fill the whole episode, especially a Victorian one :P)

What I thought was, that Sherlock started out figuring out how Moriarty could possibly be back. But then he "went too deep," and got lost in trying to solve Carmichael's murder, and the mystery of the second body ... neither of which were relevant. And since he forgot why he was there, Moriarty's appearance surprised him.

 

What's interesting to me is that it was something Moriarty said that tipped Sherlock back into the real world. Twice. And caused him to fight for life in HLV. If Moriarty is a virus, or represents Sherlock's weakness, then shouldn't his voice be the one that leads Sherlock astray? Instead, his seems to be the voice that sets Sherlock on the right path -- eventually. If it means anything, I haven't worked out what it is yet. Could it be something to do with Sherlock's courage ... he almost gives in, but at the last minute resolves to fight back? Hmm.

 

Further, kind-of-solving the Bride case brought nothing new - we know that Moriarty was a group of people from the first episode. Or do I oversee something?

Well, I for one had completely forgotten about the cabbie's "Moriarty is more than a man" remark until TAB aired. So either it was an early clue, or ... it wasn't. :P Since Moriarty definitely was just a man (however creepy) as far as we were ever shown.

[Nick_Hopkins]

I haven't read the other posts in this thread because I wanted to get my thoughts down first...

 

I finally managed to see the special at a cinema in Japan today. It was interesting to see it on the big screen (although it is more suited to television for obvious reasons) and also odd that they played Steven Moffat's introduction to 221B beforehand then Mark Gatiss's interviews at the end.

 

It was generally enjoyable but also a little messy. Once any show starts to introduce dream sequences there is the possibility that you will lose the dramatic element and this happened here. I am also probably alone in not really enjoying Andrew Scott's acting and will not be disappointed if Moriarty only has a posthumous influence from now on.

 

Having said that, some fine acting and some amusing jokes about the canon as well.

[Arcadia]

It's still in theaters over there? I guess that means it's a success!

 

I personally love the way Andrew Scott plays Moriarty but I know what you mean ... it works because we only get him in small doses, all the little mannerisms would become tiresome in long stretches, I think.

 

I hope you get a chance to re-watch someday, I think the plot becomes pretty clear upon seeing it again. Clearer than, say, either Belgravia, TRF or Last Vow, at any rate ... I'm still not sure I've completely comprehended those!

[Nick_Hopkins]

It's still in theaters over there? I guess that means it's a success!

 

I personally love the way Andrew Scott plays Moriarty but I know what you mean ... it works because we only get him in small doses, all the little mannerisms would become tiresome in long stretches, I think.

 

I hope you get a chance to re-watch someday, I think the plot becomes pretty clear upon seeing it again. Clearer than, say, either Belgravia, TRF or Last Vow, at any rate ... I'm still not sure I've completely comprehended those!

 

^_^  I wouldn't say 'still' in theatres. They obviously have to do the subtitles so most movies aren't shown here until months after they are in the U.K. and America. I would say that the show has a small level of popularity here (which is more than the vast majority of British shows have).

 

I'm sure I will see it again at some point. I wouldn't have said that the plot was too complicated but maybe a little lightweight compared with some of the other episodes.

[T.o.b.y]

I haven't read the other posts in this thread because I wanted to get my thoughts down first...

 

I finally managed to see the special at a cinema in Japan today. It was interesting to see it on the big screen (although it is more suited to television for obvious reasons) and also odd that they played Steven Moffat's introduction to 221B beforehand then Mark Gatiss's interviews at the end.

 

It was generally enjoyable but also a little messy. Once any show starts to introduce dream sequences there is the possibility that you will lose the dramatic element and this happened here. I am also probably alone in not really enjoying Andrew Scott's acting and will not be disappointed if Moriarty only has a posthumous influence from now on.

 

Having said that, some fine acting and some amusing jokes about the canon as well.

 

Hello, and welcome to the forum!

 

You know, usually dream sequences are a no-no for me as well, and when a show begins to incorporate them, I take that as a sign that things are going downhill. Not so with Sherlock, however. Not just because he's not actually dreaming, he's spending time inside his mind palace, i.e. intensely thinking / imagining, but because for me, the greatest mystery of all has for two and a half seasons been "what goes on inside that funny old head", and then in His Last Vow, they began showing us and I love it.

 

I never thought that we as an audience were ever going to be allowed to get so close to Sherlock as a character. He always seemed so aloof and somewhat mysterious. Now we've spent 90 minutes looking into his (sub)consciousness - wow.

 

But I totally see how not very many other people will like this. I just happen to dig character-driven rather than plot-driven drama, and I am particularly fascinated by Sherlock's character.

[Arcadia]

 

^_^  I wouldn't say 'still' in theatres. They obviously have to do the subtitles so most movies aren't shown here until months after they are in the U.K. and America. I would say that the show has a small level of popularity here (which is more than the vast majority of British shows have).

 

I'm sure I will see it again at some point. I wouldn't have said that the plot was too complicated but maybe a little lightweight compared with some of the other episodes.

 

Ah. For some reason I thought it had been released in Asia months ago, but then -- this IS still only March, so that's not actually possible, is it? Geez, time flies.

 

"A little lightweight" -- yeah, I can somewhat agree with that -- the whole concept of an entire episode taking place in someone's head is a bit of fanciful fluff, if you ask me. But I'm a sucker for stuff like that ... dish it out, Moftiss! :d

 

 

.....the greatest mystery of all has for two and a half seasons been "what goes on inside that funny old head", and then in His Last Vow, they began showing us and I love it.

 

I never thought that we as an audience were ever going to be allowed to get so close to Sherlock as a character. He always seemed so aloof and somewhat mysterious. Now we've spent 90 minutes looking into his (sub)consciousness - wow.

 

Oh, Toby, as usual you go right to the heart of things! I hadn't thought of it quite that way, but yep, I love it too. For whatever reasons, I'm fascinated by this character, I want to understand what's going on in there!

 

Do you suppose if we found out too much, the fascination would be spoiled? Or would we be even more hooked? (I'm not too worried about that happening, Moffat seems pretty determined the keep the man a mystery....)

[Nick_Hopkins]

 

 

Hello, and welcome to the forum!

 

You know, usually dream sequences are a no-no for me as well, and when a show begins to incorporate them, I take that as a sign that things are going downhill. Not so with Sherlock, however. Not just because he's not actually dreaming, he's spending time inside his mind palace, i.e. intensely thinking / imagining, but because for me, the greatest mystery of all has for two and a half seasons been "what goes on inside that funny old head", and then in His Last Vow, they began showing us and I love it.

 

I never thought that we as an audience were ever going to be allowed to get so close to Sherlock as a character. He always seemed so aloof and somewhat mysterious. Now we've spent 90 minutes looking into his (sub)consciousness - wow.

 

But I totally see how not very many other people will like this. I just happen to dig character-driven rather than plot-driven drama, and I am particularly fascinated by Sherlock's character.

 

 

Thank you for your welcome and it's very interesting to read your interpretation of the episode. I must stress that I did enjoy it and maybe it is a little unfair to judge it having seen it on the big screen as that is not really how it should be watched (by that I mean that if they were ever to make a movie, it would obviously be very different).

 

Ideally I think this ep would have been followed rather quicker by the next as it is a bit of a tease. ^_^

 

[Arcadia]

Ideally I think this ep would have been followed rather quicker by the next as it is a bit of a tease. ^_^

And that would be different from every other episode how?  Moftiss lives to tease us! (And they're so darn good at it..... )

[Arcadia]

I had to laugh ... on some Facebook page or other, someone had left the comment ... in February ... that it was ridiculous that we were still rehashing this episode "after all this time." Lady, you have no idea!

[J.P.]

Ah, the sweet ignorance... :D