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Apologies if this thread is also elsewhere, nothing came up on the search. 

 

Why do so many people seem to genuinely believe in the Johnlock conspiracy? Do you believe in it? Or not? Why?

Perhaps even (putting belief aside) how would you feel if it were to happen?

 

For me I think there are a lot of things in the series that could be read that way, but whilst I enjoy reading Johnlock fics I really can't see it happening on the show. I don't know why, it just seems unrealistic, and whilst there are scenes that could be read with a Johnlock slant there are always other interpretations that are just as valid. 

I don't know how I'd feel if Johnlock did happen in the series. I suppose it depends how it's done and if it successfully avoids feeling like jumping the shark. 

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Take a look at Aely's thread about Subtext Interpretation: What do you see? You'd be surprised!

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Apologies if this thread is also elsewhere, nothing came up on the search. 

 

Why do so many people seem to genuinely believe in the Johnlock conspiracy? Do you believe in it? Or not? Why?

Perhaps even (putting belief aside) how would you feel if it were to happen?

 

For me I think there are a lot of things in the series that could be read that way, but whilst I enjoy reading Johnlock fics I really can't see it happening on the show. I don't know why, it just seems unrealistic, and whilst there are scenes that could be read with a Johnlock slant there are always other interpretations that are just as valid. 

I don't know how I'd feel if Johnlock did happen in the series. I suppose it depends how it's done and if it successfully avoids feeling like jumping the shark. 

 

Mods should correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this might be a separate thread.  As I understand it, subtext is one thing, TJLC is quite another, although they are closely related.

 

For me, I do think the show uses and plays with subtext.  Some of it is just "taking the piss" (as the Brits would say) or "jerking our chains" (as this Midwestern US girl would say) and having some fun with something that has been an idea almost since the turn of the 20th century.  Part of it, I think, is a serious discussion that two people can have a serious, committed, primary relationship that is in many ways similar to a marriage but without being one or involving sex.  I think that last part is actually critical to the discussion, and I can go into my thoughts more later if you wish, but I'll leave that for a minute.

 

I don't believe in TJLC, because one of the tenants of that argument is that Moftiss have been "sneaking in" clues about a sexual relationship between S&J that will somehow be revealed at the end.  My major dispute with TJLC is that I don't think that level of subterfuge is necessary.  I think if Moftiss wanted Sherlock and John to be a sexual couple, they would have done so much more obviously.  There is literally no reason for them to hide it in 2016 if that's what they wanted: both have participated in writing/creating/acting gay characters on screen, it would be a valid interpretation of Sherlock Holmes (certainly as much as Elementary!), and there are fewer societal barriers than ever before to showing a M/M relationship on screen. So I certainly don't believe in the "conspiracy" aspect.

 

If it really happened?  Frankly, I'd be disappointed in this incarnation only.  I think Moftiss have made a Sherlock Holmes universe that succeeds in their stated purpose of recreating the Victorian-era excitement over the stories while modernizing them, and part of that success is making sexuality an incidental thing but very peripheral to the real story of relationships.  To take that and then sort of drop the anvil that "hey, Sherlock and John have been 'doing it' all along" would seem like clumsy story-telling to me.

 

Someone will do a Sherlock Holmes story that overtly has Sherlock and John in a relationship, and they will put it on TV or the big screen.  I will probably watch it.  Taking that interpretation and running with it is fine.  I just don't think that this is the version to do that with.

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I was under the impression the conspiracy was more 'it will eventually happen' rather than it is happening in secret and we will eventually reveal it. I get the impression the 'conspiracy' as of the current episodes is more to do with flirting and secretly lusting after each other than secretly up to all sorts of shenanigans. 

 

The idea of having them being in a committed non-sexual/romantic relationship is an interesting one, out of curiosity where do you see Mary fitting into that? Do you think it is possible to be in two committed relationships even if one is sexual and one is not? And what happens when those two relationships come into conflict, such as the shooting? 

 

Not saying I disagree or anything, just curious on your views. 

 

Tumblr seems to be the place I've seen the most ardent TJLC posts, and it throws me because so many of the points made so vehemently seem completely open to other interpretations. 

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I don't really interested on the (romantic) relationship between characters so if that actually happened, I still will follow this series as long as it is not the centre of the story-telling. If it is the opposite, I probably will mark this series as a waste of my time early on and go to find something that suits my taste better.

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The idea of having them being in a committed non-sexual/romantic relationship is an interesting one, out of curiosity where do you see Mary fitting into that? Do you think it is possible to be in two committed relationships even if one is sexual and one is not? And what happens when those two relationships come into conflict, such as the shooting? 

 

Not saying I disagree or anything, just curious on your views. 

 

 

 

It's hard for me to articulate my thoughts on this, but I'm going to give it my best shot.  Short answer: yes, it is possible to be in two committed relationships, especially if they are differentiated by one having a sexual nature and one not.  One commitment will be primary and one secondary.  Let me try to give a general explanation and then an example from another series and then loop Mary in.

 

I think the interesting thing about the Sherlock Holmes universe (and many other fictional universes) is that Sherlock and John are completely committed to each other, but in a way that is almost purely by intellectual and emotional choice.  That makes the relationship special.

 

A relationship that has a sexual component (even just attraction), as Sherlock pointed out to Irene, has a biochemical component that differentiates it from other relationships. That doesn't mean that it is "more than" or "less than" a committed primary friendship, but that there is actually something biochemical that binds the two people together, in addition to intellect and emotion.  I am not saying that a pleasant, intense friendship does not release pleasure chemicals in the brain or anything like that, but the sexual drive is something very specific. We say "the heart wants what it wants," but that really means (generally) that your sexual pull to someone may defy reason and logic.  Sherlock and John don't, IMHO, have that biochemical pull to one another.

 

Likewise, a familial relationship could be primary and intense, but there is a biochemical component.  A Sherlock and John who were father and son or uncle and nephew would work from a narrative standpoint, but the relationship would be fundamentally different because of that blood relationship. They would have reasons to be together even if the relationship wasn't logical or functional.

 

I think Sherlock and John have chosen one another in a way that is very "pure," in a sense, in that it isn't that they are attracted sexually to one another or pulled together by blood or anything beyond their own control.  That is fascinating, because, at any moment, one of them could decide they'd had enough and get out of there, and there's nothing either biochemical or societal (family relationship, marriage, even a formal business partnership) that would get in their way.

 

Example from another show:  Grey's Anatomy.  What started as something of a joke (Meredith needed someone as her emergency contact and picked fellow surgical intern Christina) became the overarching theme of that friendship for several seasons, with the statement, "you are my person."  Those two were nothing alike, they got on one another's nerves, and they never would have met if they weren't both in an intense, life-changing work situation (surgical internship/residency).  It wasn't sexual.  Both women eventually married men, but the husbands both understood that the women would be each other's first phone call, would receive important news (like a pregnancy) first, and would be the one to solve personal problems.  They even went so far as to go to each other's houses and climb into each other's marital beds while whichever husband was still in it, just to have a conversation.

 

Likewise, I think Sherlock and John are each other's "person."

 

I think Mary can fit into this just fine, as long as she realizes that her marriage is not John's primary relationship.  In this case, sexual attraction may be the thing that makes it (John/Mary) work.  Mary and John can have a sexual relationship, share a child(ren), and be devoted to one another, but Mary has to realize that if Sherlock has a problem in the middle of the night and calls John, John takes the call.  John goes to Baker Street.  John prioritizes Sherlock.  She also has to be OK with the fact that Sherlock probably or eventually will have a key to their house and will feel ownership of parts of Mary's life because he feels ownership of John.  If Mary truly likes Sherlock, so much the better, because John and Sherlock are a package deal.

 

The shooting?  Well, I'm not someone who thinks it makes a permanent rift among the three largely because Sherlock has decided that it won't.  Now, that might be partly because he likes Mary and admires her reasoning (in which case, good for him for being that flexible), or it might be partly because he knows that John really does love Mary and he wants John happy.  I think, most importantly, Sherlock is not threatened by Mary and is happy to have her provide an element that John wants in his life that Sherlock doesn't provide, because Sherlock knows he comes first.  Likewise, you could tell in the "Baker Street domestic" scene that John was furious with Mary, and he remains so, but I think that's because Mary crossed the line: she protected her marriage with John at the expense of John's primary relationship, and John was not having that.  The fact that he does, ultimately, forgive her (somewhat conditionally) shows that he values his marriage as long as it doesn't impinge upon the primary relationship.  I think TAB suggests that Mary has figured out those relationship contours.

 

[/excessively long post]

:)

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Wow, I'm mega impressed with the complexity and detail of that answer! Two thumbs up and a gold star, lol. Will probably answer in more detail later when I've got the time to mull it over properly, but had to say how amazed I am!

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I am tempted to pretend that I don't know what TJLC means, but I have internet access and I am a Sherlock fan, so of course I do.

 

As I've said multiple times in other threads, yes, I think there is a lot in every single episode that can be read as romantic subtext, some of it not even so sub-, and it can't all be non-intentional. I get annoyed when people who just don't like the idea claim that fans who do are "delusional", and I tend to also get annoyed with the creators when they act as if they had no idea how this could have happened. No, if I made a TV show, I wouldn't want my email full of spam containing pornographic images of my characters either, but if my characters were John and Sherlock and I had seriously not wanted people to wonder about the exact nature of their relationship, I would rethink my scripts. And directing choices. And the editing. And the marketing too, for that matter.

 

BUT: I am sure, 99,9999999999% certain, that it's only meant to be a joke. I do not expect that the boys will become a regular ordinary couple with everything included on the show, unless every single writer and producer is replaced by someone else. And yeah, you can tell a love story slowly with a lot of tension and obstacles and a lot of build-up and everything, but you don't need a conspiracy of any kind to do that. I really do not understand how the word "conspiracy" ever came to be used in this context. Maybe it was meant to be funny as well.

 

I agree with Boton that John and Sherlock seem to be each other's "person". And I think their story, just as it stands right now, has been told as a love story so far. A love story that has nothing to do with sex and whose logical conclusion is not marriage, but a love story nontheless, and that isn't treated as a joke either, just the assumption that all love must be the same and that our affections must always be dictated by our gonads and hormones is.

 

How does Mary fit in? I don't know. I don't get the impression that she's "secondary" in any way from John's point of view, which makes the whole matter terribly interesting, I think.

 

I do hope the creative team don't let themselves become too annoyed with over-enthusiastic fan requests and water the whole thing down until it becomes just another "manly buddies being manly together" bro show. I especially hope we won't need a sexy girl per episode now to prove that Sherlock is straight.

 

I love the way he just shrugs it off and seems to genuinely not give a damn when people speculate about his love life (or lack thereof). I'd be perfectly happy to leave it at that.

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Ah, finally time for to fan properly, why must work get in the way of the important things?!  :D

 

The idea of having a 'person' like that strikes me as both beautiful and kind of sad. Being that close to someone without it being tainted by sexuality is a powerful idea, I suppose the sad part is the idea that there may be a romantic partner who could encroach on that, because I don't think many potential partners would be willing to come second. I mostly agree with what you said about John and Sherlock, their importance to each other, but I also agree with T.o.b.y that Mary doesn't come across as being secondary, and I really can't see her accepting being second in John's affections, especially since she had him all to herself for so long before Sherlock's resurrection. 

 

If all of the gay subtext is a joke it seems a bit overdone, I can see it being a running gag for a couple of episodes maybe, but if anything there were more moments in TAB than ever before. I suppose the conceit of having it set in Sherlock's head gives a lot of leeway and of course the implication that perhaps Sherlock views John that way even if it's not reciprocated. That said there's nothing hugely overt in that episode either. Yeesh, covering both sides of the argument myself now. I feel like that paragraph got a bit Gollum/Smeagol. 

 

I feel sorry for the true believers because I have the feeling they are going to end up being horribly disappointed :(

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I think people are generally capable of having multiple "first people" in their lives.  For example, my mother comes first in ways that no one else ever could.  Simultaneously, my husband comes first, in other ways.  And I'd love to have someone who was "my person," because there are some important things that there's no point in discussing with my husband.

 

So I see no reason why Sherlock can't be John's "first Sherlock" (after all, how many could there be?), while Mary is his "first love" or something more along those lines.

 

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I agree with Boton that John and Sherlock seem to be each other's "person". And I think their story, just as it stands right now, has been told as a love story so far. A love story that has nothing to do with sex and whose logical conclusion is not marriage, but a love story nontheless, and that isn't treated as a joke either, just the assumption that all love must be the same and that our affections must always be dictated by our gonads and hormones is.

Amen.

 

Again. :D

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This round of setlock I've seen a few fans tweet (& it's been rt several times) that they want johnlock canon by end of next series. Personally I don't see that type of relationship & I definitely don't see it happening by next series. I could see John moving back in ( more or less permanently) with Sherlock if something happened to both Mary & the child removing them from the show but only in that extreme case. I could see a temporary moving back because John did/said something that put him in the "dog house" or Sherlock needed a 24/7 caregiver for a few days.

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This round of setlock I've seen a few fans tweet (& it's been rt several times) that they want johnlock canon by end of next series. 

 

I'm not sure if I'm just more aware of it, or if it really is picking up steam

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It's been around since S1 and I think it's been growing every series since then. Some people may want it because they don't like Mary (for any of a number of reasons) or they just want John & Sherlock back under the same roof. Some may also not believe Moftiss that it was all intended as a joke.

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Does anyone know whose part the "conspiracy" is supposed to be on?  Is it the fans conspiring to force Moftiss to make Johnlock official?  Or is the idea that the Moftisses have conspired to hide Sherlock and John's true relationship from the fans?  Or what?

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Concerning Mr Gatiss's intentions, I will take the Fifth (amendment to the Constitution), but concerning Mr Moffat's intentions, I align myself with PlaidAdder, namely that I wouldn't trust the Abominable Scot if he told me water was wet before double-checking!

AND, to top it off, we have ACD throwing a spanner in the works in The Blanched Soldier: "The good Watson had at that time deserted me for a wife, the only selfish action which I can recall in our association. I was alone." The really hilarious point of this quote is that it was about a case in 1903, so even Sherlock, or his creator, had deleted Mary from their minds by that time!

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Does anyone know whose part the "conspiracy" is supposed to be on?  Is it the fans conspiring to force Moftiss to make Johnlock official?  Or is the idea that the Moftisses have conspired to hide Sherlock and John's true relationship from the fans?  Or what?

 

I may be completely wrong here, but I thought that it was the latter.  I had the impression that it was the idea that "Johnlock is endgame," which you see as fic tags and in the blog posts about TJLC.  Moftiss have always planned/conspired to have the two wind up together, and they have dropped hints, or, in the more creative versions of this, created entire "shadow episodes" that take place in the subtext, music, lighting, and even actors' positioning that indicate what is "really" going on.

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Does anyone know whose part the "conspiracy" is supposed to be on? Is it the fans conspiring to force Moftiss to make Johnlock official? Or is the idea that the Moftisses have conspired to hide Sherlock and John's true relationship from the fans? Or what?

I may be completely wrong here, but I thought that it was the latter. I had the impression that it was the idea that "Johnlock is endgame," which you see as fic tags and in the blog posts about TJLC. Moftiss have always planned/conspired to have the two wind up together, and they have dropped hints, or, in the more creative versions of this, created entire "shadow episodes" that take place in the subtext, music, lighting, and even actors' positioning that indicate what is "really" going on.

This is my understanding as well and my main problem with the idea is, why on earth would anyone go to all that trouble. It just doesn't seem plausible behavior to me. Also, while the relationship between the characters is certainly a very important part of the show, it isn't quite THAT important, is it?

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I think people are generally capable of having multiple "first people" in their lives.  For example, my mother comes first in ways that no one else ever could.  Simultaneously, my husband comes first, in other ways.  And I'd love to have someone who was "my person," because there are some important things that there's no point in discussing with my husband.

 

So I see no reason why Sherlock can't be John's "first Sherlock" (after all, how many could there be?), while Mary is his "first love" or something more along those lines.

 

I agree, you can have multiple primary relationships in different categories, which is another reason why, if Moftiss are serious about keeping Mary around for a while, it is important that she's in a different "category" than Sherlock.

 

The interesting thing, though, is what happens if the categories overlap or have equally-important, simultaneous demands. Part of our culture says that a marital relationship is always supposed to win out over any other.  

 

So, for example (to get us off of the shooting or of anything that might be hinted in #setlock), what happens if Mary is having the baby and John gets a text that Sherlock is being held prisoner in a warehouse for ransom (so, not immediate death, but pretty darn important).  Who does John go to?  Where does he want to be?  Where do Mary and Sherlock each *expect* him to be?  That's the interesting part of these sort-of-alternative primary relationships.

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I think people are generally capable of having multiple "first people" in their lives. For example, my mother comes first in ways that no one else ever could. Simultaneously, my husband comes first, in other ways. And I'd love to have someone who was "my person," because there are some important things that there's no point in discussing with my husband.

 

So I see no reason why Sherlock can't be John's "first Sherlock" (after all, how many could there be?), while Mary is his "first love" or something more along those lines.

I agree, you can have multiple primary relationships in different categories, which is another reason why, if Moftiss are serious about keeping Mary around for a while, it is important that she's in a different "category" than Sherlock.

 

The interesting thing, though, is what happens if the categories overlap or have equally-important, simultaneous demands. Part of our culture says that a marital relationship is always supposed to win out over any other.

 

So, for example (to get us off of the shooting or of anything that might be hinted in #setlock), what happens if Mary is having the baby and John gets a text that Sherlock is being held prisoner in a warehouse for ransom (so, not immediate death, but pretty darn important). Who does John go to? Where does he want to be? Where do Mary and Sherlock each *expect* him to be? That's the interesting part of these sort-of-alternative primary relationships.

John would stay with Mary until she told him to go. Which she would totally do. And Sherlock would get out on his own or with help from Mycroft and laugh at them.

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Does anyone know whose part the "conspiracy" is supposed to be on? Is it the fans conspiring to force Moftiss to make Johnlock official? Or is the idea that the Moftisses have conspired to hide Sherlock and John's true relationship from the fans? Or what?

I may be completely wrong here, but I thought that it was the latter. I had the impression that it was the idea that "Johnlock is endgame," which you see as fic tags and in the blog posts about TJLC. Moftiss have always planned/conspired to have the two wind up together, and they have dropped hints, or, in the more creative versions of this, created entire "shadow episodes" that take place in the subtext, music, lighting, and even actors' positioning that indicate what is "really" going on.

 

This is my understanding as well and my main problem with the idea is, why on earth would anyone go to all that trouble. It just doesn't seem plausible behavior to me. Also, while the relationship between the characters is certainly a very important part of the show, it isn't quite THAT important, is it?

 

That's both my understanding and problem as well. And the lengths some of the theories go to prove their point just makes me more incredulous (I still haven't recovered from "Sherlock is gay because he drinks tea." ) Moftiss have said, though, something to the effect that the relationship between the two men is of primary importance (I paraphrase broadly!) But I don't think they mean it in the way some people take it. "Relationship" is not a synonym for "romance", which is what some people seem to think.

 

 

I think people are generally capable of having multiple "first people" in their lives.  For example, my mother comes first in ways that no one else ever could.  Simultaneously, my husband comes first, in other ways.  And I'd love to have someone who was "my person," because there are some important things that there's no point in discussing with my husband.

 

So I see no reason why Sherlock can't be John's "first Sherlock" (after all, how many could there be?), while Mary is his "first love" or something more along those lines.

 

I agree, you can have multiple primary relationships in different categories, which is another reason why, if Moftiss are serious about keeping Mary around for a while, it is important that she's in a different "category" than Sherlock.

 

The interesting thing, though, is what happens if the categories overlap or have equally-important, simultaneous demands. Part of our culture says that a marital relationship is always supposed to win out over any other.  

 

So, for example (to get us off of the shooting or of anything that might be hinted in #setlock), what happens if Mary is having the baby and John gets a text that Sherlock is being held prisoner in a warehouse for ransom (so, not immediate death, but pretty darn important).  Who does John go to?  Where does he want to be?  Where do Mary and Sherlock each *expect* him to be?  That's the interesting part of these sort-of-alternative primary relationships.

 

That sounds like a fanfic in the making! My first instinct is ... Mary would tell John that Sherlock is in more danger than she is, so go already -- after all, women have been doing this for years without a man's help!

 

Then I think John would show up, rescue Sherlock, and Sherlock would berate him soundly for leaving his wife's side at such a critical moment -- after all, he's been doing this for years without John's help!

 

So John, now thoroughly brow-beaten, would trudge back to Mary, wondering why he ever tied himself down to these two lunatics. And probably get kidnapped along the way. :D

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I still haven't recovered from "Sherlock is gay because he drinks tea." 

 

Who said that?! That's crazyness! He's British, we all drink tea  :wtf:

 

Going on from the Sherlock in danger, Mary in labour if John chose Mary and Sherlock died do you think they're marriage would survive? I don't think it would...  

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I still haven't recovered from "Sherlock is gay because he drinks tea." 

 

Who said that?! That's crazyness! He's British, we all drink tea  :wtf:

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

Pseudonym, on 14 Jul 2016 - 11:02 AM, said:

 

Going on from the Sherlock in danger, Mary in labour if John chose Mary and Sherlock died do you think they're marriage would survive? I don't think it would...  

 

 

I'm not sure.  John would probably insist on inspecting that body thoroughly just to make sure it is Sherlock & not him pulling some stunt again like he did for TRF.

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I still haven't recovered from "Sherlock is gay because he drinks tea." 

 

Who said that?! That's crazyness! He's British, we all drink tea  :wtf:

 

Ah, I don't remember where I saw it, but there's a young lady who's done a series of videos explaining all the "proofs" for TJLC. She's very earnest, has done an impressive amount of research, but I could only take about 5 minutes of it myself before retreating at speed, as it was all more of less of the "he drinks tea" variety. :smile:

 

Going on from the Sherlock in danger, Mary in labour if John chose Mary and Sherlock died do you think they're marriage would survive? I don't think it would...

 

I think I agree. At very minimum, they'd have a hard time, I bet. And if Mary died in labor whilst John was out helping Sherlock ... I don't know if John himself would survive.

 

Eargghhhhhh... it just occurred to me ... THIS may be the reason they married off John ... to eventually bring him to the point where he has to make that agonizing choice. No, no, John's been through enough already!!!! Although I think Sherlock would do everything in his power to make sure that never happens, which would (for me) be a more satisfying story.

 

Still doesn't explain why they thought introducing a child was a good idea, though. Guess we'll find out (relatively) soon.

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Regarding "he drinks tea" -- I have a book (though unfortunately not with me) that explains why Americans tend to get the impression that a lot of Englishmen are gay.  This young lady is probably a fine example of that syndrome.  Next time I'm home, I'll look for said book and give y'all a good long quote.

 

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