The Political Thread

[Pseudonym]

Reasonable people don't want any one party to be able to steamroll the others - that's just what Theresa May was hoping for. 

 

Brexit is done as in we're leaving, but there are still a lot of things to negotiate - how much we have to pay to leave, revised trade deals, the fate of EU nationals currently living and working here - negotiations begin next week, which is why Theresa May wanted as strong a position as possible within the country so that the angle to negotiate from was secure. That's why she decided to gamble on having an election now, which backfired. We won't actually be out of the EU for a good while yet. 

 

Frankie Boyle pretty much describes his twisted and particularly surreal take on the apocalypse.

 

Was much said in US media about the handshake of death between Macron and Trump?

[Arcadia]

Okay, thanks again. That actually helps ... I've heard that May's position re: Brexit was more difficult, but not why. So I appreciate the info.

 

No, not much has been made of that handshake that I know of. It's been mentioned, but that's all ... I think. I haven't been able to follow the news a lot lately, I think mostly I've just seen glimpses of it on the internet. I imagine the late night jokesters have been having a heyday with it, though. 

[Pseudonym]

It is pretty funny to watch. I just like the idea of Trump having his 'big man' tactics turned against him.  ^_^

[Surelock]

https://twitter.com/arjunsethi81/status/873616242472611840

So today the U.S. decided to embarrass itself even further by holding a nation wide protest against Sharia law being implemented in the country. As always, many people in the U.S. is always going after imaginary enemies.

 

Thank god there were counter protests that were larger in some states:

 

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/manhattan/anti-sharia-demonstration-dwarfed-islam-supporting-protesters-article-1.3237042?cid=bitly

[Fantasy Lover]

http://www.bbc.com/news/election-2017-40236152 awesome, just awesome :(.

[Arcadia]

I'm actually against Sharia law being implemented here in the States myself. ;) But since there's a snowball's chance in Hell of that happening, I don't quite see the point of wasting my time protesting it when there's so many more immediate problems to address....

[Pseudonym]

http://www.bbc.com/news/election-2017-40236152 awesome, just awesome :(.

 

I'd rather them still be in talks than just deciding they are best buds and skipping off into the sunset together. The problem I have is that I don't trust Theresa May but Jeremy Corbyn doesn't come across as particularly competent. Not that he really has much chance of taking over. So if Theresa May has to step down and someone else takes her place I won't be particularly upset. That said, it had better not be Boris. 

[J.P.]

On the other hand the Muslim communities tend to implement sharia laws to their members. Like forced marriage or honour killings. Not saying that there is a lot of it, but it does happen. I also heard (on state TV) about districts in big towns that are treated as Muslim enclaves, so people get harassed if they don't look or behave conformable to whatever image of Law the locals have. It's also told that police don't even try to intervene in this areas.

Sometimes the minorities (not only Muslim ones, I've seen it in every group of immigrants in Germany, including my own) seem to work very hard to confirm every single prejudice they are linked with. And it beeps me off. If you come to a foreign country and want to benefit from the advantages of living there, you should follow the rules of that country. Period.

 

I've looked around Twitter and actually the action itself seems to have completely different tone. https://twitter.com/MarchAgstSharia

[Fantasy Lover]

 

 

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/election-2017-40236152 awesome, just awesome :(.

I'd rather them still be in talks than just deciding they are best buds and skipping off into the sunset together. The problem I have is that I don't trust Theresa May but Jeremy Corbyn doesn't come across as particularly competent. Not that he really has much chance of taking over. So if Theresa May has to step down and someone else takes her place I won't be particularly upset. That said, it had better not be Boris.

ugh, I couldn't agree more.

[Pseudonym]

It's the same here. We have special police forces set up in some areas especially to prevent young girls being forced into arranged marriages and to protect them from retaliation in form of honour killings. I'm not talking about people who agree to an arranged marriage, but those literally forced. I watched a documentary about one police force, and what was great is that the lead officer and a few of the others were from the community they were policing - same race, same religion - so it wasn't about outsiders who didn't understand blundering in, but people who understood the community intimately.

 

Honestly I don't understand the whole thing of moving to a country but being racist against it. I went to uni with a girl who's parents would have been outraged if they knew she was dating a British white guy - her older sister was already disowned for doing the same thing. But they moved here, had her here, and then were appalled when she fit in with the society around her. They weren't Muslim or from the Middle East btw but an entirely different group. 

 

I have difficulties with large areas of the city becoming, as you said, enclaves. There are places here where no one speaks English. I understand people wanting to feel comfortable and be around others like them, I try my best to be understanding and look at it from the other side, but I can't help but have a problem with it when it feels like part of the city are being annexed off into non-English speaking areas and there is no attempt at integration. I've seen it argued that people shouldn't be made to integrate but I don't understand that, why come here if you hate it so much you don't want any interaction with the nationals? It's a tricky topic, and not something I'm well versed on, but I'm pretty sure that type of thing is one of the issues that led to Brexit. 

 

[Pseudonym]

Btw, writing that made me cringe, you have to be so careful what you say I normally just try not to say anything.

[Fantasy Lover]

why come here if you hate it so much you don't want any interaction with the nationals? It's a tricky topic, and not something I'm well versed on, but I'm pretty sure that type of thing is one of the issues that led to Brexit.

that question is bigoted it makes me mad! Maybe it's because they don't have choice and they come from a country who is at war!

[Pseudonym]

I'm not talking about refugees, that's a whole other topic. I'm talking about people who come here for other reasons. There are plenty of people who move countries without being forced to. 

[Fantasy Lover]

- terrible pay wages at home.

- global warming

Etc

[Pseudonym]

Yea, I'm not getting into an argument about it. That's why there is no point having these discussions, because things always flare up unnecessarily. There is no single reason that can be pointed at, it's much more complex than that. But yea, as I said, I'm not getting into an argument about it. 

[Fantasy Lover]

Well, it's a sensitive subject.

[Caya]

Which is why labeling carefully laid out viewpoints as bigoted might be less than helpful, huh? This topic is a minefield in any given direction, so please, be kind to each other.

[Fantasy Lover]

Sorry Caya, it's just that I keep hearing that question over and over, and it's just so stupid! They didn't ask to be put in country they don't know, or to be continually judged by the actions of a few rotten apples. I'm sorry, I just pity them.

[Surelock]

On the other hand the Muslim communities tend to implement sharia laws to their members. Like forced marriage or honour killings. Not saying that there is a lot of it, but it does happen. I also heard (on state TV) about districts in big towns that are treated as Muslim enclaves, so people get harassed if they don't look or behave conformable to whatever image of Law the locals have. It's also told that police don't even try to intervene in this areas.

Sometimes the minorities (not only Muslim ones, I've seen it in every group of immigrants in Germany, including my own) seem to work very hard to confirm every single prejudice they are linked with. And it beeps me off. If you come to a foreign country and want to benefit from the advantages of living there, you should follow the rules of that country. Period.

 

I've looked around Twitter and actually the action itself seems to have completely different tone. https://twitter.com/MarchAgstSharia

 

I think you may be confusing the American Muslim community with the European Muslim community.

 

The American Muslim community is fairly well integrated. They tend to have high paying jobs, have the highest rate of women's education among any ethnic group etc. They also aren't any Muslim-only enclaves in the US like there are in some parts of Europe.

 

For certain reasons, Muslims in Europe have had more difficulty integrating into the society than the Muslims in the US. There are a number of explanations for this and this article identifies a few.

[Arcadia]

Re: the anti-sharia marches: just in case this point needs making, the reason there is opposition to them is because the sponsor, Act for America, has been identified as a racist, anti-Muslim organization by a leading civil rights foundation, the Southern Poverty Law Center.
 
Putting aside the question of what sharia even is, in this country it's illegal to force someone to abide by any religious doctrine against their will. So it's a pretty good bet that what these marches are really protesting is the existence of Islam itself, not an actual fear of suddenly becoming subject to its tenets.
 
On the other issue: I grew up when the phrase "America, love it or leave it" was used a lot. It was flung at those protesting the Vietnam War by those who supported it. Of course, those of us who were against the war could (and did ) argue that of course we loved our country, that's why we wanted it to stop killing people.
 
So I always sort of flinch when groups are criticized for not "behaving like Americans." On the other hand, we have a lovely, quaint, tiny little cottage on a tiny, quaint, lovely little island in Maine ... that is being rapidly converted into an enclave of grotesque, bloated, over-stuffed McMansions, and all the infrastructure demands that come with them; more roads, more lights, more fences, more noise, more traffic, etc etc. If these people thought the island was such a desirable place to "get away" to, why are they changing it into what they just left? Why can't they just leave it the way it is ... like the rest of us?
 
*sigh* Sometimes I hate being a Perceiver. :P

[Pseudonym]

I wasn't going to say anything else, but I'll try one more example to illustrate what I was actually trying to say. 

 

There are large parts of the south of France and Spain where rich British folk like to retire to. They move out there for the sun and the prices and the scenery. However, they often (not always, but often) live amongst themselves in a kind of little England. They don't attempt to learn the language or become part of the society they have moved into. I'm willing to bet those countries resent the little England communities, and I would say they have every right to. 

[Fantasy Lover]

I completely agree.

[Arcadia]

Yep.

[J.P.]

Thanks Surelock, it's an interesting article. So actually the anti-Muslim paranoia in US makes even less sense. But still, the demonstration seems to be more a protest against enforcing the Sharia laws in the world and not in America.

 

Refugees are one problem, the immigrants who got work here and stayed are another. They live here for 2. or even 3. generations and still feel more connected to their origin countries. The fact that the majority of German-Turks allowed to vote in Turkey have chosen Erdogan's "new order", was a shock and wasn't necessarily helpful to decrease resentments.

 

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2017-04-18/pro-erdogan-vote-among-turks-in-germany-unleashes-integration-row

http://www.dw.com/en/opinion-turkish-referendum-must-be-a-wake-up-call-for-germany/a-38455736

https://www.ft.com/content/2a930076-1ae6-11e7-bcac-6d03d067f81f

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/referendum-in-turkey-the-bizarre-behavior-of-turkish-german-voters-a-1143735.html

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/769286/Erdogan-rally-authoritarian-German

 

Look, I'm an immigrant too. I did face discrimination and felt like a 2. class citizens many times. Had to listen to people doubting my German skills against clear evidence, or listening to opinions like: "How can you have the second best note in German? It shows how degenerated our schools are now". I had to fight hard, it took more than 7 years until my wage allowed me not to count every penny and being financially supported by my parents. Three years during my apprenticeship I actually lived with an income below the social minimum, (was almost denied the temporary discharge from TV and Radio Licence payments, because the woman that received my petition didn't believe I can live with such low income)

 

But I still say integration needs both sides to want it, and it's me who has to work harder, because to be honest, nobody invited me and nobody wanted me to come, so it's up to me to prove I'm actually of use here.

So it makes me mad when ANY immigrants behave like idiots and stir trouble, because it forces the rest of us to prove harder and harder that we are "not like your typical (insert a nation of your choice)".

Also, if refugees refuse to stay in a country that received them, and try illegally get to Germany or UK, it makes people ask why aren't they just happy to be alive and in a save place? Again, I do believe that the majority of them really need help, the bad apples make it just more difficult for the rest.

 

PS: my new immigrant neighbours, even if they seem to be long here already, or even being the 2. generation, don't give a flying beep about the municipal noise ordinance, like silence times at night. You can imagine how beloved they are in the neighbourhood. If they were Germans it would be seen as an individual case, but now they just ad to the general resentment against "those people".

[Fantasy Lover]

I'm sorry J.P. :(.

 

Btw, Trump just called Comey a coward http://www.distractify.com/politics/2017/06/12/GSj4N/trump-just-called-ja?utm_content=inf_10_53_2&tse_id=INF_ccc679d04f8a11e7914c7bbd6ac2df54 which makes him a hypocrite because he was too afraid to go to England because there would be protests https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/12/trump-uk-state-visit-protests-london gee, I wonder why.