The Political Thread

[J.P.]

Actually, all of the points, VBS, as far as I saw. Plus I suspect the outer shell of the building was highly flammable. I don't remember seeing a building burning on the outside.

 

@weapons: Maybe they think giving the weapons to both sides, make them kill each other and solve the problem that way.

[Pseudonym]

I don't think selling weapons to both sides of a conflict is actually that rare, I know I've seen it reported on in documentaries before.

[Arcadia]

Alas, I'm afraid that is true.

 

Do they know how many were lost in that fire? Horrible, horrible scenes coming over the TV screen, but not much actual information.

[Surelock]

Alas, I'm afraid that is true.

 

Do they know how many were lost in that fire? Horrible, horrible scenes coming over the TV screen, but not much actual information.

 

There are rumours that the authorities are being pressured to hold the numbers back and reveal them gradually by politicians.

 

So far 17 have been confirmed death but the death toll is expected to rise.

 

Also a number of eye witnesses on twitter have claimed that rescue operations didn't start until late. For the first few hours, the police were just trying to keep onlookers away from the building. Nothing was being done to rescue the people inside. People are complaining about police negligence resulting in the unnecessary loss of lives but I think it's possible that the police were more confused and didn't know what to do.

 

Bottom line is that more people could have been saved so people won't be forgetting about this fire any time soon.

[Fantasy Lover]

Actually, it's 30 now http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/grenfell-tower-fire-live-updates-criminal-investigation-opened-as-families-tell-of-losing-hope-after-a3566401.html.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

The other issue they are running into (mentioned in FL's link) is hotspots re-igniting forcing rescue/recovery to stop.

[Pseudonym]

And 70 people remain unaccounted for, so it's likely most of them are in the rubble. Did you see the story about a lady throwing her baby out of a window to try to save them? And a guy on the ground actually caught them?

[Arcadia]

Thanks, gang, that's more information than I gleaned from the news last night. I did hear the one about the baby, that was amazing. And heartbreaking. I don't suppose they know if the mother survived?

 

I did get the impression that the conflagration was so total that firefighters simply couldn't get close enough to do anything. God.

 

 

 

[Pseudonym]

Our emergency services are pretty good, I can't see them standing around not doing anything unless there was a good reason. 

 

Nope, haven't heard if the mother made it. :(

[Pseudonym]

The government have announced a 5 million pound emergency fund to help people get immediate support to buy the things they need right now (food, clothes etc), and are then looking into what they can do to support them for more long term. Most are currently rehoused by the local borough council and housing association, so they do have accommodation. 

 

Theresa May went to visit yesterday and today and have to be 'taken out a side door and bundled into a police car.' Big protest going on.

[Surelock]

So family and friends of the people in Grenfell Tower are very angry that the casualty number is being downplayed:

https://www.facebook.com/presstvuk/videos/vb.531336173559777/1808430345850347/?type=2&theater

 

Also someone posted this on twitter:

 

 

 

 

Also I think it's noteworthy that a lot of the victims of this fire seem to be immigrants. Could that be a possible reason for why the authorities are downplaying the casualty number?

[Pseudonym]

No, it's because at the moment the bodies inside the tower are burnt. No one wants to be throwing definitive numbers around without facts behind them. It's been clearly stated on the news that at least 70 people are currently missing, and the presumption is that they are dead. The confirmed number is rising every time a body is found. Right now there is no way a single firefighter can know exact numbers of dead and it's ridiculous to be putting out numbers that are at best estimates and only going to get people angrier.  

I don't like the idea of there being a conspiracy theory that because some of these people are immigrants they don't matter. Plus a lot of those people weren't immigrants and were actually Londoners born and bred, so saying it's being downplayed because they are immigrants is not only ill informed and inflammatory it's also plain wrong. The casualty number is not being downplayed, it's unknown. 

I'm not saying these people are wrong to be upset and angry and protesting. They have every right to feel the way they do - they are desperate, hurting and traumatised. What I don't like are people perpetuating 'a neighbour's son's friend' rumours and Chinese whispers and stoking a fire that is not going to do anyone any good. Honestly that is so far removed from any legitimate source it would be laughable if it wasn't so irresponsible. 

I don't mean this as an attack against you personally Surelock, it just makes me so angry that people feel the need to jump on social media and spread rumours in an already volatile and tragic situation. It's sick when people start posting wild guesses just to insert themselves into the drama. 

[Arcadia]

That was my understanding from the news ... around 70 are still listed as missing, but are expected to be found to be dead. Also they are afraid some will be burnt beyond recognition and will never be identified. :(

[Pseudonym]

'Stoking a fire' may have been a remarkably poor choice of words.  Though I stick by inflammatory. 

[Surelock]

@Pseudonym

 

Personally I have trouble seeing how the authorities aren't able to give out a fairly accurate number of people killed in the fire by now.

 

Yes their bodies are burnt but their bodies are still there so can't they just count all the burnt bodies? Unless all there's a lot of rubble covering most of the bodies, I have trouble seeing how they could not have a good estimate of the body count by now.

 

You don't need to identify each body in order to do a body count. Body counts conducted in war zones of casualties of bombs don't identify each body. Yet up till now we only have 30 confirmed deaths. I can see why friends and family of the residents of Grenfell Tower are angry.

 

 

 

Also regarding my the victims are immigrants comment, I believe I wasn't specific enough. I meant they came from an immigrant background and were non-White. 

I think something noteworthy about the victims/missing people is that a lot of them are Muslims. Here's a graphic I found on twitter:

 

 

 

 

The fact that so many victims/missing people are Muslims is one of the main reasons why rumours are starting to spread of authorities covering up information. The rights of people of colour have become an issue ever since Brexit and it looks like the Greenfell Tower tragedy is going to be politicised in that way. 

 

[Pseudonym]

Well, personally, I can see very easily how they can't give an accurate number. We're talking about going through floor by floor, flat by flat, through a crumbling building looking for the charred remains of people in contrast to the charred remains of everything else. It has to be accurate when they do release a final number, and therefore it has to be painstaking. Look at this picture, that's not easy fire damage you can zip through and tot up bodies. Specialist search and rescue teams had to be brought in along with dogs. And remember, it's not a case of just glancing in each flat, everywhere has to be checked. People could have easily been trying to get away from smoke under beds, inside cupboards, every inch has to be looked over. Of course they have estimates going by the number of people missing, and those estimates have been released. 

 

 

As I said, rumours of numbers being covered up are just that, rumours. What possible gain would there be in saying there are 30 dead instead of, say, 130? What would be the point? I think accusations of slow response and apathy from the authorities may be justified, people certainly felt furious enough hold a large scale demonstration last night. Immediately latching onto the fact that these people aren't white or that some of them are Muslims as proof they don't matter to the authorities is wrong. Clearly you've already made up your mind as to what you believe, but again it sounds like a conspiracy theory to me, and I don't believe the authorities looked at this flat and these people and just shrugged and decided they didn't matter. What the victims are saying on the news I want to listen to and understand, but from self-appointed pundits on Twitter or any other social media? No thanks. 

 

[Surelock]

 What the victims are saying on the news I want to listen to and understand, but from self-appointed pundits on Twitter or any other social media? No thanks. 

 

I think something I should have made clearer is that many of the self-appointed pundits on social media are the families and friends of the victims. 

 

The families and friends of the victims are the ones that are complaining that the police are not revealing all the information that they have. That's exactly what that lady in that video that I linked on that previous post claimed that the police saying 17 people were dead was a joke and the actual number should be more like 100. 

 

This is another video of another family member of the victim being angry at the claim of there being 12 dead: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=788476561311730&id=337108963115161&hc_location=ufi

[Pseudonym]

Unlike the post before it then. 

 

There is no point going around in circles on this. No one is saying only 12 people are dead. They are saying numbers as they are confirmed but no one is at any point suggesting that is the final number, and the estimated numbers have always been much much higher. I don't have issues with what those people are saying, I have issue with the insinuation in your original post that our government and media are all inherently racist and that there is a cover up. 

[Surelock]

Pseudonym I apologise if I offended you.

 

I'm not insinuating that the government is racist and there is a cover-up. However I believe that's what the families and friends of the victims are suggesting in the videos that I linked. I'm simply paraphrased what they said in my original post. Once again, I apologise if it came across as offensive. 

[Arcadia]

At any rate, the count is, unfortunately, going up steadily as they confirm deaths.

 

That's standard procedure around here, too ... authorities will release estimates, but they won't confirm the number of dead until they know for sure. After 911, for example. That took days. And the count turned out to be much lower than feared ... some of the missing turned out to have escaped, and it just took awhile to find out they had survived.

 

It's easy to understand why people under duress get angry. Natural response to trauma. And if I understand correctly, there is some concern that the building itself burned so completely ... certainly from Pseud's picture, it doesn't look like it would pass code for an apartment block around here. But I don't know what building codes in London are like. Around here, they learned to upgrade them the hard way ... one tragedy at a time. There's probably still some below code in older parts of DC and the surrounding burbs.

[Surelock]

Here is Labour MP David Lammy's opinion on why he believes there is currently an uproar on how the Grenfell Tower tragedy is being covered:
https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/876406010549870593

[Surelock]

Today I think I've found what is probably the worst hate crime story I've seen yet in the U.S.:

http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Fairfax-County-Police-Searching-for-Missing-Teen-429249943.html

 

So apparently a 17 year old Muslim girl in Virginia was walking towards a Mosque and then got into an altercation with a man in a car. Then this girl was reported missing. The police found her dead a few hours ago. It currently looks like the man in the car beat her to death with a baseball bat. 

This is some crazy movie-esque incident. The U.S. is starting to look like a bad movie. I hope our President remembers to condemn this attack. 

[Arcadia]

That says they don't know if it is a hate crime yet.

[Van Buren Supernova]

And latest, definitely hate crime.

 

Finsbury Park Mosque: Man dies as van hits pedestrians

 

I am tired of so much stupidity and ignorance everywhere.

[Fantasy Lover]

There was also a hate crime a few days ago in the USA https://mic.com/articles/179691/jeronimo-yanez-verdict-officer-who-killed-philando-castile-found-not-guilty-of-manslaughter?utm_campaign=social&utm_medium=movement&utm_source=policymicTBLR#.Lao0oHBkV I'm angry and disappointed that cops keep getting away with this kind of thing.