The Political Thread

[J.P.]

https://twitter.com/KeithOlbermann/status/852196706913529856

[Arcadia]

I'll just repeat post #547, shall I?

[Doe]

https://twitter.com/_GokHan_1/status/850795917334765569

 

I don't know what to say!

 

April 16 2017 We will vote.

[Arcadia]

Good luck, I hope your election works out better than ours did.

[Doe]

Good luck, I hope your election works out better than ours did.

 

Thank you but I don't think so. Because, The person who first shared video is Erdogan's fan for opponents. 

 

"Say yes for Erdogan! Look! America is teasing us!"

 

He is incapable of understanding.

[Arcadia]

I know. History does seem to be going the wrong way these days. :(

[Van Buren Supernova]

I know. History does seem to be going the wrong way these days. :(

You mean, repeating itself?

We have everything to learn from history, we just don't.

[Surelock]

 

I know. History does seem to be going the wrong way these days. :(

You mean, repeating itself?

We have everything to learn from history, we just don't.

 

 

Especially in the U.S.

 

You know a CNN guest was discussing Donald Trump with an African American woman. The African American woman was going on about how the U.S. can't trust Trump but the CNN guest decided to appeal to that accusation.

 

He said that Donald Trump was the Martin Luther King of Healthcare:

 

 

I bet he mentioned Martin Luther King because African Americans value Martin Luther King a lot and he wanted to convince the African American woman that Trump can be trusted.

 

I'm starting to think Trump's fanbase are a bigger threat than Trump himself. Forget illegal immigrants. If anyone is to be deported from the country it should be them.

[Doe]

Today, we are going to vote for Turkey's future or Erdoğan's future.

 

There isn't never election if result will be "Yes"

 

Big day for us...

 

Wish us result "No" and good luck, my friends...

[Arcadia]

I am reading about it now, Doe. But I admit, I don't understand if it is good or bad ... one news source says bad, another one says good, because the AKP didn't get a majority. What do you think?

[Fantasy Lover]

I just heard the yes camp won, it saddens me.

[Doe]

I just heard the yes camp won, it saddens me.

Not yet. Head to head. We are waiting for the results.

[Fantasy Lover]

Yeah, but the yes camp seems to be winning :(.

[Doe]

I am reading about it now, Doe. But I admit, I don't understand if it is good or bad ... one news source says bad, another one says good, because the AKP didn't get a majority. What do you think?

Erdoğan said now "early bird catches the worm." but we have a problem. There is blemish the election. 1.500.000 involid votes. Other political party will object.

[Fantasy Lover]

I heard that too, I doubt the recount will happen :(.

[Doe]

Yeah, but the yes camp seems to be winning :(.

No. I believe that it will be good. He can't be dictator.

[Fantasy Lover]

I agree with you on that.

[Arcadia]

What I am reading now is so different from what I was reading earlier. I think I must have got hold of some old news before. Now every news sources is saying Erdogan won by 51%. :(

[J.P.]

As I was watching the link posted by Doe, suddenly I realized that it looks like the religious part of the community felt let down by the existing system (because they seem very fond of Erdogan). It also apply to the populations who voted for Trump, for the conservatives in Poland and also partially the Brexiters.

And I ask myself why? What is the problem religious people have with an open, liberal society, where they are free to follow their belief.

 

Do any of you have heard arguments about it? I would really like to know.

[Arcadia]

I was talking about that very issue with some of my friends this morning, JP .... and we're just as perplexed as you are.

 

I think I get why true, rigid fundamentalists are against a free society, because they think there is only one right path to God, and they think they have to force everyone else onto the same path they are on in order to bring about the world they want to see. And they are so convinced their path is the only right one, they fail to see how an authoritarian government could NOT share their faith.... ?

 

But I don't think that describes the majority ... or at least I didn't use to. Now I'm not so sure.

 

I remember years ago having a discussion with a young lady who wanted to know why liberals were so "anti-Christian." We fell into quite a lengthy (but civil) conversation, and as near as I could figure out, she believed things like this: when the state rules that children in public schools should be taught natural selection but not creationism, that is "anti-Christian." When towns stop putting up Christmas displays with public money because non-Christians object to their tax dollars being spent that way, that is "anti-Christian." In other words, anything the state did that didn't actively support her religion's beliefs must be actively working against her religion's beliefs. We talked about why it wasn't the government's role to uphold any one religion, but I don't think she was convinced that it wasn't active discrimination. When you believe as purely in something as she seemed to, I guess it's hard to understand why everyone else doesn't believe exactly the same thing (the "truth").

 

After Trump, though, I'm beginning to think a big piece that I've overlooked (because no one in my circle agrees with it) is the anti-abortion issue. If you believe abortion is murder, as many religious conservatives do (and possibly even religious moderates) .... then yeah, voting for a pompous, sexist, authoritarian fool who "promises" to ban abortion may seem like the only moral thing to do. I'm getting the impression that was the driving force behind many of Trump's votes. Not all, but maybe enough? I don't know ... it's hard for me to think that way. Especially since I'm convinced Trump has no belief either way. I can't say about Erdogan and the others.

 

[Doe]

I have difficulty to understand what you wrote. I hope I could understand.

 

Religion is good if it serves for humanty.

 

In Turkey, distribution of votes is very interesting. Big cities voted no, little towns voted yes. 

 

Red: No votes  Green: Yes votes

Red: Big cities  Green: Little town

 

 

for example: The biggest city of Turkey voted no; Istanbul (metropolis - population 25.000.000), Ankara (national capital), Izmır (Smyrna Tourism and Aegan city), Antalya (Tourism and Mediterranean city) It is also interesting, for the first time for Turkey, West and east compromised. Because there was conflict look like England-Ireland. 

 

Green cities don't set republic or monarcy aside. We are asking, "Why?" We are saying problems. Only one answer, "I love Erdogan. Man like a prophet." (Absouletly not all of them, of course.) 

 

I know you Arcadia. I don't understand, too. 

 

 

[Arcadia]

That is the same in America, Doe. Big cities voted against Trump, little towns voted yes for him. And many in little towns give the same reason; they love him, he's like a prophet.

 

In my post, I was just thinking about JP's question ... why do some people think freedom is anti-religion? Maybe because if you are free, you do not have to follow a certain religion. And some people do not like that, they only want one religion for everybody. Maybe? I am not sure.

[Surelock]

 

And I ask myself why? What is the problem religious people have with an open, liberal society, where they are free to follow their belief.

 

 

I'm not sure about Europe but this isn't necessarily true with Turkey.

 

Turkey hasn't traditionally been an open, liberal society. It's been theocratic for most of its history. It only established a secular government less than a hundred years ago. However it was done in a very hasty manner.

 

The secular Turkish government tried a lot to to get rid of religion in the public sphere. This included them making controversial decisions like instating a headscarf ban that I believe was only repealed in recent years.

 

A lot of the religious parties in Turkey felt alienated by how quickly the country changed and have probably wanted to seize power sooner or later. They chose to do that with Erdogan. I think many of the religious people in Turkey idolise Erdogan because they think he's the first leader of their modern government to have a high regard for religion.

 

Of course it's possible that Erdogan isn't religious and is simply pretending to be religious to appeal to all the alienated religious people. Such behaviours are actually quite common among Middle-Eastern leaders. For example, Benjamin Netanyahyu isn't considered a religious Jew but he does put on a religious act in order to get the Israeli right to support him.

[Fantasy Lover]

In my post, I was just thinking about JP's question ... why do some people think freedom is anti-religion? Maybe because if you are free, you do not have to follow a certain religion. And some people do not like that, they only want one religion for everybody. Maybe? I am not sure.

America is considered as the land of the freedom. Which is why Europeans left, they wanted to be free from religion. But you're right, Christians considered their belief the one and only true belief, which is why we had those crusesades, as if your belief gives you the right to kill another.

[SherlockedCAMPer]

 

In my post, I was just thinking about JP's question ... why do some people think freedom is anti-religion? Maybe because if you are free, you do not have to follow a certain religion. And some people do not like that, they only want one religion for everybody. Maybe? I am not sure.

America is considered as the land of the freedom. Which is why Europeans left, they wanted to be free from religion. But you're right, Christians considered their belief the one and only true belief, which is why we had those crusesades, as if your belief gives you the right to kill another.

Europeans came not to have a freedom from religion but to have the freedom to worship as they saw fit. The new Christian denominations that sprung up after Luther's role in starting the reformation had many people leaving the Catholic Church and being persecuted for leaving the church even though what they were doing was attempting to go back to how they thought Christianity should be practiced.

 

As for The Crusades, Christians were trying to restore what was taken from the Jews and establish a more peaceful Middle East, not that all were going about it in the best way. By this point the followers of Islam had been known to be violent and killing those who would not convert or pay some sort of tribute [when Muhammad started Islam, it was peaceful until the following got large enough during his lifetime; then the violence started (and now the debate of if the religion is supposed to be run under the more violent strong arm we hear in the news or the more peaceful side that so many muslims want)]. (Yes my inner religious history geek is coming out, but I've always found history, and religious history in particular, rather interesting.)